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Subscribe to RSSKaren and Jim Reynolds, the couple who accidentally stumbled upon fugitive Christopher Dorner, describe finding him, being tied-up, what he said to them, and their eventual escape.
The chase, shootout, standoff and inferno that ended the search for ex-LAPD officer Christopher Dorner began when a married couple startled the suspect in his mountainside hideout.
When Karen and Jim Reynolds arrived to tidy their rental cabin not far from a police command post, they found the alleged cop killer holed up inside.
“He said four or five times that he didn't have a problem with us, he just wanted to clear his name,” said Jim Reynolds at a press conference late Wednesday. “He said I don't have a problem with you so I’m not going to hurt you.”
“I didn't believe him, I thought he was going to kill us,” he added.
Dorner, the target of the biggest manhunt in LAPD history, then tied them up, swiped their purple Nissan Rogue SUV and left.
"We haven't really been told what's happened to it," said Karen Reynolds.
Dorner might have had a chance to flee the Big Bear ski resort area where scores of police had conducted a door-to-door search for him — except Karen Reynolds got free, called 911 and alerted cops that a man who looked like Dorner was on the run, the officials said.
After a long manhunt culminating in gunfire and a cabin set ablaze, the search for accused murderer and ex-cop Christopher Dorner seems to have ended. Police say the charred body found inside the cabin was unrecognizable, but they claim there is no doubt their suspect is dead. NBC's Miguel Almaguer reports.
"What we did was kind of scoot our way — I went up and she went down," said Jim Reynolds. "then she got her gag off and then we both worked on trying to stand up."
Earlier reports, based on statements from law enforcement officials, indicated that it was a pair of housekeepers who had been tied up by the suspect.
"We really very much wanted to clarify things," said Karen Reynolds, "but, it was taking us a whole lot of time to get over the trauma too and, like even by the time all the police were gone last night you guys [reporters] arrived immediately and, wasn't, we never slept for one second, since this happened."
The 911 call set in motion a dramatic and tragic chain of events in which one sheriff’s deputy was killed in a gun battle outside a second cabin where the suspect’s charred body would be found before the day’s end.
“It was like a war zone and our deputies continued to go in to that area,” San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon said at a press conference Wednesday afternoon. “The rounds kept coming, but our deputies didn’t give up.”
Police have not officially determined that the corpse found in the burned-out county was Dorner, who kept southern California in fear for a week as, authorities say, he carried out a murderous campaign of revenge against the LAPD. They are waiting for forensics.
The San Bernardino Sheriff’s office has said they don’t believe the gunman who barricaded himself inside the cabin escaped before it erupted in flames.
“We believe that this investigation is over at this point and we’ll need to move on from here,” said McMahon.
McMahon said police did not intentionally set the cabin ablaze, but the pyrotechnic tear gas canisters — commonly referred to as “burners,” he said — generate a high level of heat.
It was when police began using the pyrotechnic canisters to flush out the suspect that the fire began.
The charred remains of the cabin where ex-cop Christopher Dorner was believed to have been holed up.
The LAPD, which had been under a series of tactical alerts while Dorner was on the lam has returned to normal operations on Wednesday, although a dozen people on hit list remained under guard, said Lt. Andy Neiman.
"Thanks to the brave men and women of the San Bernardino Sheriff's Department, it looks like we have our man," Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" early Wednesday.
Investigators had been combing the ski resort area since Thursday, when Dorner’s burned out Nissan truck was found there hours after he allegedly ambushed cops in two cities, killing Officer Michael Crain.
Days earlier, police believe, Dorner executed the daughter of a retired police captain and her fiancé in Irvine to kick off a killing spree that sowed fear across the region and in the ranks of law-enforcement.
After the man believed to be Dorner fled the cabin where he had encountered the couple, wardens from the California Department of Fish and Wildlife spotted the purple Nissan and gave chase.
The suspect lost them and, it appears, ditched the Nissan and carjacked a white pickup.
Rick Heltebrake, 61, told TODAY on Wednesday that he was driving near the Boy Scout camp he operates when a heavily armed man he recognized as Dorner, 33, crawled out of the woods, pointing a rifle at him.
He said the hulking former Navy reservist was wearing camouflage and a ballistics vest and told Heltebrake, “I don’t want to hurt you.”
“He was dressed for action,” Heltebrake said.
Dorner commandeered the pickup, but let the man and his dog go. Shortly after Dorner sped off, Heltebrake heard gunshots.
That may have been the brief exchange of fire between Dorner and another game warden who spotted the pickup and pursued it. The warden’s truck was riddled with bullets, but he was not hurt, officials said.
Dorner then “fled into the forest and barricaded himself inside a cabin,” the San Bernardino Sheriff’s office said. “A short time later there was an exchange of gunfire between law enforcement and the suspect.”
KNBC-TV
Det. Jeremiah MacKay, 35, was killed on Feb. 12, 2013, after exchanging gunfire with a man believed to be a fugitive ex-police officer accused of a revenge-motivated shooting spree.
Two deputies were shot and taken to Loma Linda University Hospital, where officials later confirmed sheriff’s deputy Jeremiah MacKay had died and another had surgery but was expected to survive.
MacKay, 35, joined the department in 1998 and was father to a 7-year-old daughter and 4-year-old son.
“Our department is grieving from this event,” said McMahon.
No further shots were fired from the Angelus Oaks cabin before police began to storm the building, according to a sheriff’s spokesman.
Deputies smashed the cabin’s windows, fired in tear gas, and tore through the structure’s walls using an armored personnel carrier, a source close to the probe told NBCLosAngeles.com. A single gunshot then rang out, according to the source, and flames and smoke began to emerge from the remains of the building.
It was hours before police were able to enter the cabin and find the body. Investigators continued to scour the crime scene Wednesday as other police gathered in Riverside for the funeral of Officer Crain.
San Bernardino, Calif., County Sheriff John McMahon says that the sheriff's department did not intentionally burn down a California mountain cabin where Christopher Dorner is believed to have died. Watch the entire news conference.
Neiman said it was difficult to celebrate the apparent end to the rampage given the loss of four lives, two of them lawmen.
“This has been a very trying time,” he said. “To hear those words ‘officer down’ is the most gut-wrenching experience you can have as a police officer,” Neiman said.
Additional reporting by Andrew Rafferty
This story was originally published on Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:20 PM EST
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Thanks to all the Sheriff and policeMEN who risked their lives searching for Dorner. Thanks to what female policemen I saw for guarding the police stations, directing traffic, and talking to the news media while the men risked their lives. We now are going to have women in combat because they demanded it. Will we ever see a female soldier in a fire fight? Eye candy is one thing, getting the same pay is questionable, but please don't imply women can do the same job a man can. Political correctness is not reality.
So with all his training in survior and weapons and military and this woman freed herself? Sounds fishy to me but then again this is the American media circus, so who knows what happened if anything really? I just don't believe anything about this whole story....why would a couple go into Big Bear knowing that he was on a rampage and known to be in the area? So how'd she free herself anyway?
There were aliens that made them do it and it was all a conspiracy, ahhh dahh, they had a job fool and it was 300 feet from 100 law enforcement officers and they were cleaning the cabin. It is amazing how dumb as$es think that have ZERO life experiences, just like the people that voted for a POS of a leftist destroyer as a president. You are no doubt one of the blind sheep that can't act or have a clue about real life... But I think they were aliens, really and they were there to purposely get tied up and wow, how did the get freed, ahhh they got Freed by their own means and then the aliens called law enforcement to save them. Where do you idiots come from, it must be from another planet, this night has been filled with stupid idiots and comments from Mars and the ignorant population, our voters!! No wonder we are so screwed up!!!
I think LAPD is to blame for this. Maybe he uncovered some info leading to the arrest to some lapd members. I do think this "Fire" was planned to keep him quite. but nothing will ever become of this now other then this poor guy is dead no one will ever know his true story. Normal police cover ups and police doing what they want when they want. they all should be disgraced.
You've got to be kidding! This "poor guy" you are moaning about had already murdered four people, two for being cops, one for being the daughter of a cop, and one for just being there with her. In what way was the LAPD to blame for this? You make allegations with absolutely no basis, justification or evidence. Just because you wish something to be true, does not make it so.
you yourself have no basis either only what the Lapd says and media reports. if you ever want more proof that cops lie look up or here are two proof that cops lie. in fact we will never know what really happened. the cops cannot be trusted to tell the truth.
You are just another lost fool, and it is scary that there are that many idiots like you in society..
God I have never seen such stupid comments. Like "The police set fire on purpose to hide the truth oh and I love this comment "Mysteriously caught fire". I have come to the conclusion that some of you people are the most dumbest and sorry excuse of something with a mind. Why don't you go put a badge on and hit the streets. MOst of you would not last one day there. How many of you think that by singing Kum ba yah, holding hands and try going up and asking Dorner if he would please give up he would do it. That crazed gunman had no problem on killing. With his own words he had every intention to kill as many cops and their family members as possible. His actions alone would tell anyone with any common sense that he wasn't going to go out without taking as many with him as possible. Would you be saying the same thing if he had come after you or your family. Why don't you go up to Officers Michael Crain widow and their two kids ages 10 and 4 and ask them how they feel and and relate to them you back seat driving point of view and give your stupid ides about the cops brought this to an end just to cover things up. Some you make me sick to my stomach. God how stupid can some of you be
Sorry you feel this way. but the lapd didn't have an issue shooting up a daughter and mothers truck while doing a job. You sir make me sick to my stomach. The LAPD goes around shooting people the people they want to "Protect" and you say it is okay.
Thank you for pointing out the facts and speaking the truth, god bless you and your family!!!!!
@!$%# YOU!!!! How about that I can not even begin to tell you how much of an idiot you are, so I will not even bother to talk to a moron such as yourself!!!!!!!!!
Mike, thank you, there a few people here with a pea in their head, I appreciate your logical comment and I am sick of responding to all these morons, you said it and you are exactly right, thanks..
You did read one thing I said, and again since your back seat driving. I don't excuse what the police did in reference to the two women and they will be delt with. It was a very hi tense situation. The driver was driving down the street with their lights off. The truck matched the description of Dorners Truck. The bad part was that the the driver was near the house where the police was guarding. It was one of Dorners targets. Do I think they might have over reacted yes. But then again I wasn't there and neither were you. Go down and take a shoot or don't shoot class and see how many innocent people you end up shooting.
Making a "hi tense situation" doesn't make it right. in fact it just shows that they were eager to shut him up. I have taken a take a shot or dont class. in fact i've taken two of them. but i can also say i dont have the training police have in spotting suspects. I do know a cop in my home down that took the class with me and he scored much higher. (which he was just reduced in rank for withholding witness and tempering with a witness) The fact of the matter remains the only word we have now is the LAPD we all know cops can be the biggest gangs* around and they do stick up for there own first. 3 years ago there was a state police officer that used his service pistol to beat his wife he got fired after a 4 month PAID leave.
*gang can mean
a group of persons working together; squad; shift
OR
The police's definition of a gang is: a group of individuals, juvenile and or adult, who associate on a continuous basis, form an allegiance for a common purpose
Meecali,
Thanks for writing, and please do open up about any police misconduct or mistreatment. Don't let the aggressive "non thinkers", who cannot distinguish between issues concerning Dorner and issues concerning LAPD, shut you up.
It is this kind of silencing of people in the community, including women who have been battered, raped or stalked by police, that for years has kept police misconduct, abuse of power, corruption and even craziness (as in the police who decapitated a few bodies to get rid of evidence few years ago) going.
I am saddened and horrified at how many people have had painful and horrible experiences, one is enough, with men in uniforms who should be liked, trusted and make us feel safe. There are good cops and average ones who are doing excellent to moderate work. But few bad ones can ruin an institution's reputation and trustworthiness. More than 20% is enough to affect law order, justice and fairness.
All these conspiracy theories, true or not (we have to have an independent investigation and find out), tells you the two Americas we live in: those who are protected and secure (with the help of the police, and police efficiency, ethics or privilege)...and those who are not!
Poor and people of color have always known this. Now it is affecting young people as well, and violence seems to have become more organized and acute using military style weapons.
There are two law-and-order Americas with two separate kinds of policing. One America has law and order where the police serve the public and in protective ways, the other America has lot of punitive erratic enforcement of laws, or simply police order and authority. We have to realities going on at the same time.
Lot of this is emerging in urban communities and some Southern communities.
I am shocked at a Professor of Psychology at USC (my alma mater, I am ashamed to say) coming on CNN, with eyes that looked like she was on drugs, dissing the thousands of people questioning LAPD conduct. As a faculty in psychology, working in an environment close to the Watts' protests, she should understand where some of the feelings and emotions are coming from...without calling everyone angry with the LAPD as people who have opinions that don't hold up to facts. What facts did she produce?
As a graduate of USC, a school I was once proud of, I call upon this faculty to re-examine her statements and look at the number of poor people, non-whites and young people who have been traumatized by bad police behaviors and conduct. She needs to get out of her insular world and walk around her own work neighborhood and see beyond "psychopathology" and pay attention to "sociology". Any professor who only focuses on one and not the other...is neither integrated nor really effective.
Do not let the aggressive ones silence. Speak out and write. There are people collecting statistics on this issue...and it is shocking how many case of police harassment goes unreported.
Good police should help you vent and file a complaint. We must also ask good cops to join in the fight against the bad ones, aggressive or abusive ones.
Thank you for sharing...
Mike_ca
The trucks were not even the same color... Also I thot the police were trained to react in "a very hi tense situation
You and meecali are beyond dumb and have no idea how and what "real" life is about and when you talk about gangs, then you must be the mommy of a gangster and have zero parenting skills. This situation has nothing to do with your rant, turn your computer off and go smoke your dope, you are just another fool that knows nothing whatsoever!!
At first I was thinking some nut job lost it and is out trying to kill cops in LA like happened up here in a coffee shop where a guy killed 4 cops. But... The more I read into it, and about it, the nastier the feeling I get about the involvement the LAPD had in this. While the real story will never come out, I have a hunch there is definitely something valid to what pushed Dorner so far over the edge. While I don't condone the the killing of Quan and her Fiance as they were non-combatants, civilians, and innocent. The strikes against law enforcement are valid actions as they are most certainly more deeply involved in the matter than it appears, are also combatants, and are rarely innocent. V for Vendetta anyone?
The strikes against innocent officers were valid?? You are a complete ignorant moron "sympathetic Non American" are you that lost and stupid that you say it's OK to kill other jurisdictional officers? You need mental help you idiot!! So if I don't like you, I can kill your family or your child!! What planet are you on dumb as$!! It is morons like you that should go find a high cliff and jump as you serve no purpose on this earth. You are now in the top of the dumbest comments here and once again, you prove how dumb people are and no doubt vote, a very scary thing...You are a pathetic piece of chit and your name is completely sideways to a rational mind, wow people like you and others that don't know where their as$ is, because your head is so far in that hole you can't see or hear and are as dumb as it gets...I hope some day you are a victim of a violent crime and you will be crying like the beeoch you are!! Unbelievable nonsense and by your sick scribble, you yourself are a combatant against sensible human beings..
OMG you people who have never been around CS have no idea how hot those different grenades burn. Standard to throw canisters in a building before entrance, it isn't the Police Officer's fault that the bad guy decided to hold up in "a fire waiting to happen" wooden cabin.
viperr68-3885820 couldn't said it better myself.
Well said, but we are dealing with a bunch of liberal goofballs that know nothing and are anti law enforcement, and not to think that the criminal killed 4 innocent people, and wounded 4 others, good post and I surely could care a less what these mental midget's have to say, I am so sick of them, time for bed. They obviously didn't see him shooting 100's of rounds at officers and he surely could have given up if he wanted to. And they must not have any reading comprehension and didn't read that he would unlawfully kill everyone he could. The bottom line is that these idiots can't read and understand that this puke was a cry baby and could not take rejection all the way back to childhood, no daddy, classic black BS and his mommy went to the bar to drink while he was trying and killed innocent police officers before he burned to death, once again, great post..
Oh this by far is the dumbest comment of all "The strikes against law enforcement are valid actions" Postal Workers unite you have a person here that justifies the killing by any means or excuse.
LAPD equals corruption, we already know this. Mr Dorner was undoubtedly screwed over for telling the truth about his sadistic partner. It does not equate to killing innocent people, he lost me on that one. The cops that fired him should be investigated for corruption and fired.....but we know that wont happen. The women shot in the truck by the trigger happy cowards in blue should be fired and these women compensated. This all could have been avoided if the blue wall of covering police arses didnt exist. Dorner took the wrong route to redemption and we all suffered. The man is dead lets move on.
You don't know chit and he was a failure from childhood and it had nothing to do with corruption, it has all to do with his on failures in training and his gf's saying he was a nut and was turned down for promotion and was going to be throw out of the military. He was blaming everyone for his failures and has been violent, being thrown off of two football teams for fighting. He was a powder keg and they dumped his lying ass and he made the whole thing up because he was failing and was on his way to being fired!!! Don't talk chit when you are full of chit and yes he took a fatal path and 4 innocent people died, two great police officers that had nothing to do with his trigger happy psycho as$, well now he is a crispy pile of chit, later burnt dead bro!!
For a supposed Cold Blooded Killer he sure seemed to go out of his way to NOT hurt people.
Something is rotten in LA, and its not just all those backyard Avocado's...And a Tear Gas canister that Burns a Cabin to the Ground....hmmmmm Unlikely. More likely an Incendiary Grenade was tossed in a window.
Since Cops are now being Given all kinds of Military Equipment from Homeland Security, I suspect that is far more likely...Sounds more like this cop knew something , didnt like it and had become a Liability to someone way up the ladder....What ever happened to all the Really Good Investigative reporters???
Now they seem to report just exactly what they are TOLD to report...
WHO CARES! I am glad that the cops burned down that cabin with this piece of sht. inside! Scratch one less Monkey running around loose killing innocent people. Burn in hell.
Transcribed clip of standoff with Dorner. This is evidence that the fire was intentional.
http://archive.org/details/DornerStandoff2
DORNER 4, "cops" 1
DORNER WINS!!!! YAY TEAM!!!!
Gary in Socal, I doubt they raced past you as it was 3 County's away and when he is firing hundreds of rounds a bullhorn would be like pissing on a forest fire, where do you morons come from, you have no idea what it is like to get shot at as you are all pussies hiding behind a computer with all you leftist stupid ideas, "hey Chis come out and we will give you a candy bar" What the hell is wrong with you idiots!! This is real life, dead people by this puke and most had nothing to do with LAPD, all that were killed were not LAPD and the small amount of morons here out of millions add their stupid input without a thread of experience. No dumb as$ a bull horn to surrender was met with massive gunfire from a criminal that has been violent since childhood and somehow he slipped through the psyc testing and turned into a nutbag killer, so your stupid comments are beyond dumb and now the puke is dead, a great thing and 99% of the "real people" applaud that, nite, done with you fools...
Well here you are wrong I have been shot before, as a matter of fact it was by the LAPD Burbank division on April 1, 2008 during a raid on my house, the case was later dropped do to lack of evidence and support of the charge. So please when you speak to people on here believe that there are people on here that have been through some bull @!$%# do to the dumb and stupid tactics of the LAPD. I am not saying the killings where justified but then again he did kill people involved, I have sympathy for the officers killed. But then again LAPD officers kills people all the time and get away with it.
Youtube this "Police Audio Reveals an Intent to Burn Chris Dorner Alive" and you'll hear the intention the police had.
In order for Law Enforcement to have gone with the burn plan, it shows us they made the plan in advance and made logistical efforts to have 7 burn devices on hand and used them to burn down the cabin. All of this advance planning to burn the cabin, clearly shows there was never any intent on anything BUT killing Dorner and justifying it for officer safety. Judge, Jury and Executioner makes the LAPD and others, the corrupt Judge Dredd's of society, who legally kill you instead of arresting you.
Sounds about right, you mess with them and they'll kill you. They couldn't have Dorner come out alive speaking bad about the LAPD and the coruption that goes on inside their dept.. It's pretty clear what their intent was when they shot up those 4 innocent people, and that was to shut him up, permanently...
Well I hope this at least taught the LAPD and the rest of our "hero's" in law enforment that you are NOT invincible and if pushed there are those that WILL fight back. I hope that if there was one thing good to come out of this whole terrible situation it was that you PEOPLE in law enforcement HAVE to treat EVERYBODY with the same respect you'd want to be treated with. Once you start thinking you're the Cock of the Walk again and your sh!t dont stink, this same exact thing will happen again and again...
I don't get it, if this guy was such a monster and such a danger to the public, how come he didn't kill let alone hurt any of the other people he came into contact with? Oh that's right, the LAPD were shooting on site anything that remotely looked human. I guess that does put the public in greater danger, by being killed by vengefull, trigger happy police that are looking to be the one to exact the revenge they THINK they desreve...
Glad these two people are ok, but after seeing them being interviewed... they are whacky as hell.
All you liberal folks who are getting it wrong thinking this guy was some conservative nut... sorry, he loved the liberal media and Obama.
All you liberal folks who think he was some kind of hero... hero people don't run around killing unarmed women.
The guy was just a moron.
I think people like this gentleman deserve a metal.I agree that he was treated unfair,well he made it fair,thats my view.Your crooked government do whatever they choose without penalty,and no one says a word,you are the shame of this country because you allow them to guide you to your own death and in my eyes,thats really stupid and cowardly.This man stood for what he believed and was willing to die by that,thats a man no matter color or creed.I believe all men are equal and have the right to do as they choose.All the talk about the training officer,its all bull,thats a bunch of cops who just didnt want him there because he was by the book and they are going to be the cops on trial someday for killing your kid,stupid.Just cause you re a cop,doesnt make you good.Most cops actually suck at there job,cheap on their wives with partners etc,its a blue shirt brotherhood of cowards.I am the worldwide president of the Asphalt Angels MC,and yes I wrote this.I pray that more and more of us who believe will come forward because let me tell you this my friends,no one will ever control me or my life,I live by my own laws,not your government.Maybe thats explains alot,because while all of you are shaking hands and getting shafted by them,people like us are enjoying every bit of life.
The law and the government have guns and power,so do we.Im not here to start a war,but to make a point.Wake up people,look at the truth,better yet,stay there,thats where you belong.
wow. ya, perfect guy. why did he kill a couple innocent unarmed women? according to you, he should have left everyone alone. way up in the northern canadian rockies, pretty sure you can find your peace far far away from society... need a map?
“He said four or five times that he didn't have a problem with us, he just wanted to clear his name,” said Jim Reynolds at a press conference late Wednesday. “He said I don't have a problem with you so I’m not going to hurt you.” WOW to clear his name sounds like he was set up just like he was when they fired him set up. Its to bad the cops had to get killed but this guy was set up what would you do. The LAPD is very corrupt this guy just blew the lid on them. See If he is not dead and it was someone elses body as he left his ID there then he just got a big running start from them crupt LAPD. I pray for him to be saved and I pray that the bad cops that set him up get caught and are put on trial. May god have mercy on his soul AMEN
So, your "hero" was clearing his name by killing unarmed civilian women and other people? Yikes. Hate to be working at burger world if he had a problem with being charged individual rather than given the combo meal price.
Now they trying to get out of paying the Reward to the Couple tied up, they made the call that tracked him down...shady!
"We did not intetionally burn down that cabin". Lying bastard!!! Recorded scanner audio says different
Everyone deserves a trial by jury. Even an accused murderer. If Dorner had been killed in a hail of bullets so be it. But for the police to intetionally burn down a structure with a suspect inside is MURDER. Plain and simple. Police officers know exactly what they are signing up for when they join a police department. Policing is inherently dangerous. Police do not have the right to murder a suspect because they are afraid they may take more casualties.
I heard "LL Cool J " was gonna play Dorner in the movie coming out.
“He said four or five times that he didn't have a problem with us, he just wanted to clear his name,” said Jim Reynolds at a press conference late Wednesday. “He said I don't have a problem with you so I’m not going to hurt you.” WOW this guy was set up its to bad he took some good cops lives but they were doing what the crupt cops told them to do. What would you do if you were set up and had the tools to try to exsposed them I pray that the bad cops are exsposed and put on trial. And I also pray god has merrcy on his soul for trying to show that The LAPD are evil. AMEN
No Coment, Every one new what hapend , You bring justice after trail in court
I would give Mr.Dormer a metal for his actions because its people like us that will change this crooked government.Im even more happier that he did exactly as he said he would,because it shows all you crooks what will happen eventually when playing with peoples lives.I know,its not a joke,but it wasnt a joke to Mr.Dormer either because he was an honest man and told the truth about the training officers conduct.Truth is the LAPD did not want him on their team,want to know why idiots?he was honest and thats not good.If you took one minute and realized how crooked your government,police,politics,council,trust me you would change your outlook on alot of things.I dont believe in your laws neither do I abide by them,I have my own and we do quiet well without you.When the rest of you figure out its a battle between good an evil,you'll be better off.The laws are designed to control you,no one controls us,united we stand,divided we fall.Hey Dormer Hoooh Rah brother you did well :)