Legal, but wrong. What is it with people, anyway? The dogs reminded me of my Border COllie =- who would have rounded up the guys sheep, also.

This is very unfortunate. There is a difference from dogs fighting with the sheep verses herding them. this guy is a straight up Ahole.

It's a shame for sure, but they should have kept the dogs in a more secure manner, preventing them from escaping in the first place. That said, if you can't tell the difference between dogs herding and dogs attacking you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm because you are mentally deficient.

He can tell the difference. He did it on purpose to prove a point. Thus his "I shoot first" message to his neighbor. I'm sure he was fully aware that these were his neighbor's family dogs and probably kept his little pop gun by his door, waiting for the day they got into his yard.

Dogs managed to get into his yard, being dogs like they are, is no excuse. He is scum.

Yes the dogs were in the wrong place however if this sheep/gun nut had such an issue with dogs getting at his sheep in the past why were they not better secured.....so twice he says dogs got into where he keeps his sheep....he's sounds like a NUT with a GUN who was looking for an excuse to kill something with it.....poor dogs....that dude would be VERY sorry if he were my neighbor!!!

Very unfortunate. Even though they were only herding the sheep, they were still harassing livestock. I feel for the dogs' family, but farmers can shoot dogs that are harassing their livestock.

Large dogs, chasing my animals..... would have done the same.... not because I want to, but what other course of action do you have.... wait until they kill something?

Too bad for the family....

The dogs should have been secured, but with that said dogs can get loose. You would think the guy would have done the neighborly thing, observed the sheep were in no immediate harm and called his neighbor to come pick up his dogs, or animal control for that matter.

Shooting the dogs was over the line and probably justified an ass whooping.

Hey Queenie... sheep are kept in an open pasture, just like cattle, not in the backyard

Steve-446003

Hey Queenie... sheep are kept in an open pasture, just like cattle, not in the backyard

and that's my point.....so ANY critter or anyone can just wander in and onto his property to do whatever so this nut can shoot them "justifiably"....who REALLY knows what those dogs were doing...his statement "I shoot first" says it all!!

Until someone is bitten or attacked by a "friendly" dog, then no one has room to talk. Sorry, I'm a dog owner/lover from the beginning, but I've also been bitten and attacked by "loving animals that wouldn't hurt a soul." Yeah, right. My crime? Accompanying the owner into her livingroom. No threat, no nothing, just vicious and aggressive dogs. Fortunately, I escaped without severe injury. And yes, I know what to do when a dog comes at me, that's why I didn't have severe injury. Of all the thousands of dogs I've had in my life or been around, only two have been vicious, and neither were mine. But how can one tell at first glance?

When any dog that is not "related" to the livestock or its owner, and is in a situation of contact, then the livestock takes precedence. That's the way the law is, and that's the way it should be.

I hate that the dogs were killed, but I also understand that the livestock owner was just protecting his property. The dogs' owner should have been more responsible and careful about his dogs. Accidents happen, but sometimes you've just got to be careful. How would the sheeps' owner know if they were vicious or not? We've all read where dogs (usually pittbulls, but not always) have attacked and killed someone for no reason. The sheeps' owner was protecting himself and his livestock. It certainly is a tough lesson to be learned.

Shoot first, think and ask questions later. It's the American way.

Were the dogs attacking the sheep? NO. They were herding them. What would have happened if kids snuck out and got shot for trespassing? What a country.

If they were herding type dogs there was probably no danger to the sheep,should not have been necessary to shoot the dogs. Sheep dogs are bred to not kill sheep.

I would think someone familiar with sheep would have also been familiar with herding behavior in dogs and not confused it with dogs hunting to kill sheep.

I feel bad for the dogs' owner and his kids. But the responsibility to control his dogs are his and his alone. He has no right to ask his neighbor to ignore the danger to his livestock real or perceived. The lesson here is that if the dogs are that valuable to you, then be a responsible pet owner and ensure that they cannot escape.

I'd have to side with the law (and thus the owner of the sheep) in this case.

Also keep in mind this article is 100% one sided. The one, and only, story you are getting is that of the dog owner. The sheep owner could very well have said "I shoot first, there isn't time to figure out their intentions." in which the dog owner very well could have paraphrased that to just "I shoot first" because it fits his side. You know people do that, all the time.

The dog owner says "They were just herding the sheep" how does he know this? Was he watching it all happen? If he was, why wasn't he bringing his dogs under control? Sounds an awful lot like conjecture to me.

Dogs are animals with teeth. Keep them confined or risk humans who have the right to fear strange dogs defend
Ing themselves or their own animals. Sad, but it's the owner's responsibility.

Got to love the American way... shoot first, ask questions later. My guess is that the sheep owner is anti-social, because he obviously (1) didn't know or care about his neighbor, (2) didn't know or didn't care they were his neighbor's dogs. I'm willing to bet that there wasn't a hint of "I'm sorry neighbor I had to shoot you dogs"

Bernese Mountain Dogs are large, but have the personality of a teddy bear. Sure, these dogs got out. but a death sentence is a little harsh. BTW, Border Collies are maybe 40 or so pounds. These guys were probably 140-180 pounds.

period, end of discussion

Nothing is "period, end of discussion" just because you say it is. That's the purpose of the Vine, and every time I see that little ditty I think what an arrogant jerk it takes to believe his/her comment is THE word on the subject.

I have a German Shepherd that comes from herding stock. A lot of people don't know that GS dogs are used to herd; they think of them only as guard and law enforcement dogs and if they saw them in a field herding sheep, cattle or horses (which is what mind does occasionally) they would think my dog was attacking or harassing the livestock and shoot them.

Knowing the dogs were his neighbor's, the man could have immediately contacted them, if they were home. But he had had a previous incident where dogs killed his sheep. This is a toss up. A while ago I had to shoot a neighbor's dog when it, for the third time, chased my horses with intent to do harm.

I don't care what any of you guys think about the shooting being justified. This guy is simply a POFk'nS.

If he's all that as a farmer or sheep guy, he'd instantly know the difference between two dogs herding versus the two (pit bulls) that were attacking. Not to mention that with his background in raising sheep, he'd a known these dogs were doing what's natural with no harm.

Besides, he's a neighbor and most likely knew who's dogs they were. If they were my dogs, I'd have a really good time with this guy here and there in the future if you know what I mean... It's a two way street...

Paybacks are a bitch which he deserves especially the way he said, "I shoot first" to the dogs owner.

Herding behavior is a trait in dogs, however proper herding technique must be trained. A herding breed dog can very easily hurt livestock if the dog isn't trained on how to herd properly. These dogs may be born with the instinct to herd sheep, but if they were housepets then odds are they have not been trained to herd without biting. Anyone who actually has a working herding dog knows how much effort is put into training a dog to herd properly without biting or harming the livestock. Many times the dogs wear muzzles at the beginning of training because it is also their natural instinct to bite what they are chasing. These untrained dogs could have easily killed the sheep without meaning to because they likely have not been trained not to bite. And to people saying the rancher could have gone out and stopped it and collared the dogs and returned to the owner - have you ever tried to stop a dog that is chasing something? Do you really think the dogs would obey the command to stop, coming from a stranger? Dogs get fixated and it can be challenging to bring them out of it unless you have a relationship with them where they know you are the boss. I've seen several articles now of escaped house dogs killed by a neighbor and it's very, very sad for the dogs - then the news will show the backyard of the dog owner and the fencing is horribly inadequate. If you own a dog, it is your responsibility to have sturdy, adequate fencing for your dog. You can't put up a 4 foot chainlink fence that isn't even fastened to the ground and think that's good enough to keep your 100lb dog contained. Sometimes dogs can accidentally get out, yes, but if you have the right enclosure for your particular dog it would be really hard for it to escape. I'd love to see a picture of the fencing this guy had for his dogs. I notice he isn't taking any of the blame for his dogs escaping.

Anti-social is a short step away from Creeper

if you don't know anything about livestock you should be prevented from commenting because your retarded. dogs kill lots of livestock, most of them are pets. a dog can kill livestock by harassing it to death. chickens can be so scared they die of heart attacks, so can sheep and goats. horses and cattle can become so frightened they injure themselves attempting escape the dog that is "just playing" if the livestock can't tell the difference how can the the owner. this is all fine and cute until YOU find your $8,000 weanling foal mortally wounded by someones mutt who was "just playing" . Also just being a herding breed isn't sufficient to herd correctly and safely it take years of dedicated training to get an animal like that as Guest2468 said best. If the dog owner wants to blame someone he should look in the mirror- leash laws exist for a reason and some people seem to think being in a rural area gives them free rein to just let their dogs do whatever to anyones property and livelihood they want

The guys comment that "I shoot first" clearly tells me that this was done for malicious reasons, not because he thought his sheep were really in danger. This guy is a complete @!$%#!!! Unfortunately, because the dogs were on his property the law can not do much about it - even though this idiot clearly knew that the dogs were not trying to kill the sheep.

Ronald Hussein Reagan

Legal, but wrong. What is it with people, anyway? The dogs reminded me of my Border COllie =- who would have rounded up the guys sheep, also.

Agreed, my family has a Border Collie amongst our members and he would have done the same thing, herded them as his instincts tell him to do, but he would never harm the sheep. The difference between herding and aggression is apparent, you would think a sheep owner would know this. I question someone owning sheep that doesn't know much about sheep herding. So sad.

I hate to think what I would have done to this guy if he shot my dogs. He wouldn't have had time to even try to utter an excuse. For 35 years I have been trained to have self control and not to use what I have learned unless directly threatened but all of that would likely vanish in an instant. They would probably find him wrapped up like a soft pretzel without a major bone in his body intact. Then I would let the law deal it. I would view this as a direct assault on a family member.

And frankly I don't care if anyone has a problem with that opinion.

" I would view this as a direct assault on a family member."

That's the problem with you dumb dog owners, if you treat your dog like humans, and they get shot at like human intruders. You have no bones to pick. By the way 35 years to learn self control and still can't control thy self, that's just sad.

DrowningGrover

You're delusional. Dogs have no boundaries when it comes to interacting with other animals, they do not posses human reasoning.

If those were my dogs and they got out accidentally and this SOB shot them, law on his side or not. I would get even with that SOB, maybe not for a while, but some of his damn sheep would end of dead....just saying. Pay back is a bitch.

The sheep didn't know the dogs, the dogs aren't trained to herd sheep. The sheep are terrified as their genes call them "wolves." The dogs have herding instinct bred into them, which is from the old, deeper hunting instinct.

Many rural neighbors don't know whose dogs belong to whom. Collars don't count.

The people should have kept their dogs chained up or fenced up. Too many times people move into a rural area and think that its fine that their animals are getting into everyone's garbage and getting exercise by chasing deer and livestock.

The dogs could have just as easily been killed on the road by a vehicle.

Readily available statistics say that in 2011 Dog Attacks resulted in 31 human deaths in 2011 (the most recent year available). The stats do not track attacks that result in the deaths of other animals, etc. 65% of those deaths were from housepets, according to the statistics. So, just because a dog is cute and cuddly and 'not supposed to bite' doesn't mean that it won't. I know 31 deaths isn't many when compared to the thousands of deaths by other means annually; however, the lesson is that stuff happens. Don't take chances. I was attacked as a 5th grader walking home from school by a dog that bolted from a neighbor's open door. If I hadn't been wearing big old almost knee-high 'moon boots' I'd be a statistic too. All the dog got was a mouthful of fabric and insulation...

I hope they file a civil suit, maybe if they hit the gun weilding neighbor in his pocket book he will rethink his "shoot first" attitude.

Sheep are sweet animals and extremely vulnerable to dogs. They don't have the defenses to protect themselves and will literally run themselves to death trying to get away from them. The same dogs we love so much and that sleep on our beds, are the same ones who readily revert to the nature of their ancestors when roaming loose and come up on animals like sheep that will run from them. Very sad situation. But it could have gone either way. I understand why the owner was trying to protect his sheep, particularly after some had been killed by dogs already. No doubt he'd wished he could have protected them previously. I can understand the sadness of the owner of the dogs. But if the dogs had been kept on their own property there would be no story at all.

When I was an EMT, I can't tell you how many times I heard from the dog owner "oh, I didn't think my dog would ever bite"... as I was wraping the wounds of a bitten patient...

As a general rule, I love dogs, but disfavor people who are dog-crazy. They LOVE to show their dogs off--regardless of whether the person they're showing off to likes dogs, or is allergic to fur. Everyone who doesn't love their dogs is cast as a bad person.

I call it the "my wovy-dovy puppy" morality.

The owner of these dogs should accept responsibility for letting his dogs harass a neighbor's animals.

"my wovy-dovy puppy would NEVER bite your baby in the face..."

Just because these dogs were pets does not mean they will not harm an animal. They were not trained to herd and most dogs will chase and take down an animal that runs. My neighbor had Rotties and when they got loose they tore my rabbit hutches apart and killed all my rabbits though they had stated before that they were playful and would not harm anything. Most dog lovers also feel this way about pets, but for the most part it is not so. The dogs' owner is a fault for what happened to them.

thepunisher-2054749

" I would view this as a direct assault on a family member."

That's the problem with you dumb dog owners, if you treat your dog like humans, and they get shot at like human intruders. You have no bones to pick.

#1.37 - Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:09 PM EST

I just had to copy and paste one of the most moronic & stupid post I have ever read in my life for others to see. "Just" in case they missed it above...

Please, do not, and I repeat, "do not" breed. One is enough.

Superskunk - You are the one who obviously doesn't know much about sheep herding, including how long it takes to train a dog to herd without hurting the livestock. Do you think it just magically happens on its own? Would you think a German Shepherd could be added to the police force and know how to sniff out drugs and apprehend criminals safely with absolutely no training? That just because it's a German Shepherd it automatically knows how to do all of these things? An untrained dog chasing livestock is a disaster waiting to happen, and a sheep owner would know that. You say your dog would chase sheep but never hurt them, but you don't really know until it happens. There is a big difference between aggression and prey drive - yet both can wind up killing another animal. A dog can be the kindest, sweetest dog there is but can accidentally kill another animal if they get caught up in the moment and herding turns into chasing prey. Ever seen a dog chase squirrels or rabbits? Guess what they're going to do if they catch it - they will kill it. It doesn't mean the dog is aggressive, it is a natural prey drive. This is why working dogs must be trained intensely.

A herding breed dog can very easily hurt livestock if the dog isn't trained on how to herd properly.

I've known all types of herding breed dogs who weren't trained properly and the most they ever did was nip the heels of animals they were trying to herd, and that included children running around in the yard they were playing with.

They don't jump at the flanks and rip and tear, they don't jump at the throat, they ALWAYS go after the heels. If they went after anything else the animals would kick the hell out of them and cave their heads in.

The larger herding dogs would run around the livestock and bark at them. My German Shepherd does that and when they are going in the right direction he drops flat to the ground with his head on his paws and "disappears" into the landscape.

A true herding dog never causes harm to livestock even if it has never had an ounce of training.

"I shoot" - here we have a redneck opportunist looking for any excuse to use his shiny weapon. Wow what a big man he is.

Those dogs could have been given a chance but instead what he did was unjust and the law is a fail in this matter. This ahole is very lucky he didn't shoot my dogs

A man's home is his castle and he has a constitutional right to protect the estate with his guns. Any creature in the realm must behave exactly as the King wishes or BANG -BANG ("I shoot first"). Let that be a lesson to you...and his wife and kids better learn from that lesson as well.

The irresponsible dog owner is at fault here . If you live in the country and have no clue as to the consequence of your pets interacting with livestock you have no one to blame but yourself . Distinguishing between a vicious dog and a " herder " is not the responsibility of the livestock owner . The pet owner is clearly at fault here , even though the farmer may be a jerk , he was enabled by a pet owner who did not live up to his responsibility to properly contain his dogs . The pet owner is the person you all should be ripping on .

willysjeep

Just because these dogs were pets does not mean they will not harm an animal. They were not trained to herd and most dogs will chase and take down an animal that runs. My neighbor had Rotties and when they got loose they tore my rabbit hutches apart and killed all my rabbits though they had stated before that they were playful and would not harm anything. Most dog lovers also feel this way about pets, but for the most part it is not so. The dogs' owner is a fault for what happened to them.

oh please..if u cared so much for your bunnies why would you leave them outside in a hutch where potential predators could so easily attack them....I also have bunnies and they are kept INSIDE where I know they are safe.

Wow a lot of you "animal lovers" sure want to side with the dogs over the sheep. This man is running a farm, a business. From his perspective two dogs are harassing his livestock. He has a few choices, do nothing and lose livestock, intervene and possibly be attacked or bitten by the dogs, or do what he did and eradicate the problem. His neighbors were the irresponsible ones here and entirely at fault for allowing their dogs to escape. These dogs could have just as easily been run over by a car while they were running around unattended.

If you're going to own an animal it's up to you to control it and take responsibility if you fail to do so.

Creek Dog

My guess is its too late for us as you probably have been breeding. But then again, that's what trailer trash does. Like I said, a dog is an animal, but hey if you and your ilk is that delusional and can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be owning any pets, and I don't even hate dogs, I hate dumb dog owners. I'm guessing you're one of them. But it's safe to say, any intelligent conversation with you is way over your head to even comprehend.

"Pennsylvania law states that you can kill a dog if it’s caught in the act pursuing a domesticated animal, like sheep"

Dog owner stated this was generic? I don't see anything generic about this. It's a sad story but this is EXACTLY what was occurring. I've had livestock killed and maimed by dogs and would probably have done the same thing if the animals didn't respond to a 'NO' command.

To make matters worse, once a dog or dog pack in this case, discovers where the livestock is they will make for the livestock any time they get loose.

Dogs are important.
People are even more important.
Sheep v. Dogs? Not clear. Sheep who are your livelihood? Getting clearer.
Right (I am Blue, note) to be free of others' animals on your own property? Yes.
Sad if any living creature dies? Yes.

Some of you commenters are freaking ridiculous! Trigger happy Aholes is all you are. Just want to kill @!$%# huh?

This man is an a--hole who knew exactly what he was doing.

Dogs get out of yards...it happens despite the best of intentions by the owners.

That doesn't mean you get your gun and shoot first. What - if any - other options did he try?

Karma will get him.

This man is running a farm, a business.

You don't know that. He could be a rich tax attorney who works in Philly and knows that keeping a few sheep on his property will dramatically lower his property taxes by having it classified as a "working farm".

Carrying concealed...

No one in this thread is talking politics or wearing their politics on their sleeve. Yet you seem to know who all the "liberals" are and all your statements seem to focus on your hatred of liberals.

You are no different than Joe McCarthy, you just choose the word "liberal" instead of "communist".

Let me clue you in. This isn't a political discussion. It's PEOPLE talking, not libs and cons.

Lots of people are demanding that gun owners secure their weapons...

.... why can't people secure dogs?

Sorry. If you don't care about your pets well enough to keep them secured, then they're as likely to get hit by a car as killed while terrorizing livestock.

oh please..if u cared so much for your bunnies why would you leave them outside in a hutch where potential predators could so easily attack them....I also have bunnies and they are kept INSIDE where I know they are safe.

If the dog owner had cared about their dogs....

Exactly. This isn't about politics. This is about respect for property and/or pets. It's also about defending one's own personal space.

Who is good/bad in this story? Why did the dogs have to pay the price for a misunderstanding between humans? What is necessary and what is excessive? Would giving in to the demands of dog-lovers constitute a surrender of property rights? These are questions that have nothing to do with politics, and more to do about people's attitudes toward pets.

Don't approve of people shooting just to shoot. So take his picture. Put in on the town billboard with his own quote. "I shoot first". Should make him infamous. Even people who think he is right will stay away from him because of it. He'll maybe start thinking first rather than shooting first. My neighbor had a dog that would kill small pests. They appreciated that but one day a neighbor's dog wondered on their property and their dog killed the pet. The HOA has rules that once a pet wonders onto another property that pet will not be held responsible for protecting his ground and killing the wondering pet. However my neighbors were so upset about the incident that they had their dog put down for it. They feared a small child wondering onto their property may suffer. And rightfully so. I see their reasoning as being sound. Not this farmers. "Think first" is always best.

This is a common issue in the areas where urban spawl is encroaching on traditional farmland. Having had a dog hit by an out of control motorist when I was a child, I feel for the pain and loss these kids are going through. That being said, this year i've lost 2 calves to coyotes, and just lost a calf this morning do to a difficult birth through the night. What people fail to realize is that the owners of the livestock feel the loss each time it happens to us. I've had (family dogs) chase cattle and horses through fences requiring that they be put down afterwards. It is very easy to break the leg of livestock due to (herding) by animals who do not have the proper training.

These laws are there to protect the producer and their livelihood and are near universal and are there for a reason. This non-trained $1000 dollar dog could easily harm a $1000 dollar steer. It is never fun to have to kill an animal whether it is yours or someone elses but it is necessary at times. The sad part about this is that they are neighbors and likely know little about eachother and deff don't work together for their community. Now you will have bad feelings between people who are seperated by a fence.

In my county when you move into the rural lands you are given a booklet to help explain that you are no longer in a planned community and you are now in another domain with different rules and expecations on you and your pets. Feel for the kids and hope the father uses this as an expierence to teach his children about coping with loss. BTW this was a terribly written story that was lacking on facts, details, and was rife with bias.

Again, we have a gun owner making assumptions that his property or his person is being threatened enough that it warrants using his precious weapon to deal with it, and the law is, apparently, on his side.

How about calling the game warden, waiting for him/her to get there, the warden corrals the dogs, any livestock that may have been hurt or killed are photographed for evidence against the dogs' owner, if any livestock were hurt or killed, the dogs' owner pays to replace the livestock.....case closed!

Jeez, we are slowly but surely returning to our "wild west" roots, where justice is meted out via slugs from gun owners' weapons of choice.

Hey...my redneck neighbor keeps revving up his Harley-Davidson for no other reason than to make noise at all hours of the day and night....the sound waves are assaulting my ears...does this mean I can lawfully put a few dozen rounds through the crank case of his aggravating piece of $hit motorcycle? God, I hope so!!

"I shoot first" is what Mr Bock claims Mr Pilotti said. We don't really know what Mr Pilotti said, we only have Mr. Bock's version of the story. It's highly probable that Mr Bock paraphrased what Mr. Pilotti actually said.

A billboard will certainly grant Mr. Pilotti the opportunity to pursue libel charges.

People need to understand that Mr. Piloitti has not gone on the record with the "I shoot first" statement and it should not be attributed to him just because Mr. Bock says so. While I'm very sympathetic to Mr. Bock, I also believe he's playing up his story to the media.

Many rural neighbors don't know whose dogs belong to whom. Collars don't count.

except this didn't happen in a rural neighborhood. Chester Springs, PA is a wealthy suburb of Philly somewhat near the "Mainline." It's where the rich people live (how else do you think this guy paid $1000 EACH for his two dogs). It's filled with million dollar (plus) homes, premium shopping centers, and very near 76 and the PA turnpike. We're not talking about random dogs chasing sheep in Wyoming here folks.

Its' undoubtable that the rancher KNEW these dogs were for the most part harmless, that he KNEW they were his neighbors dogs, and he shot them anyway.

No, this guy was probably jealous thinking these dogs were flirting with his 'girlfriends' and shot them

Wait a second I just thought of something. The dogs escaped from the owners' yard and came into the backyard of the sheep owner. How did they get around HIS fence? I would have to think you can't go around shooting animals that wonder onto your property if YOU don't have a fence. And what is this guy doing having sheep in a residential neighborhood? I mean if you want to be a sheep farmer move to a farm area. This is sickening.

basedrum,

How did they get around HIS fence?

sheep really only need an electric fence. These dogs are big enough to jump that.

And what is this guy doing having sheep in a residential neighborhood? I mean if you want to be a sheep farmer move to a farm area.

Since I'm from a farm family, I'll explain this to you. Many of these residential neighborhoods have moved into the surrounding countryside and encroached upon "farm area"s as you call it. Why should this sheep farmer move just because somebody decided they wanted to live next to him?

Yes, you do that, AnaBanana! You just take his picture and put it on that mean ol' billboard and make him infamous! LOL!

1000 bucks per dog...F that...I would wait for some sheep to stick their heads through the fence onto my property and start blasting saying their heads were on my property. I would be getting compensated one way or another.

The owner of the dogs is responsible for keeping his dogs fenced. However, the sheep owner was a total jerk. It would have been very obvious that the dogs were trying to herd the sheep and that it wasn't necessary to shoot them.

So while I think the shooter is a jacka$$, I would have to side with him.

Dogs ! Who the heck cares ? This is America...the sheep owner "stood his ground"...dogs are nothing, people are nothing in the USA...where 88 people, EVERY day are killed by gunshots, every day....interestingly, this newstory about dogs getting shot, has about TWICE as many emails as the other stories in todays news about PEOPLE getting shot...88 people daily..whacked out nation...England, 63 million people, had 43 deaths by gunshot for all of 2012.

So many angry people threatening to do something to this "gun nut". Chances are the hard working rancher would have kicked your ass, unless you are an unstable gun nut... Tough talk from a bunch of coach potatoe internet surfers. Ha ha ha. I was a professional bouncer and I have trained dogs, even herding dogs. You don't know @!$%# about what an animal is thinking, person or dog. This man was following the law, yet you are advocating that you wouldn't. Hmmmm, sounds like vigalante mentality to me. And you call him the nut.

It's a shame for sure, but they should have kept the dogs in a more secure manner, preventing them from escaping in the first place. That said, if you can't tell the difference between dogs herding and dogs attacking you probably shouldn't be allowed to own a firearm because you are mentally deficient.

Todd, I do not agree. The dogs were chasing the sheep. Whether their purpose was to herd them, or to physically attack them, would be hard for the sheep owner to tell. He did what I would do if somebody let their animals onto my property and they were harassing my animals.

The only people at fault here are the dog's owner, who allowed his "pets" to leave his property and become a public problem.

It would have been very obvious that the dogs were trying to herd the sheep and that it wasn't necessary to shoot them.

You are such an expert in the behavior of untrained sheep dogs, mb?

You have no other evidence that they were simply herding the sheep, than the dog owner's assessment, and I do not believe he was an eye-witness to the shooting. Why is this more creditable than the account of the owner of the sheep, who was certainly present.

I'm somebody who is favor of stricter, more restrictive gun laws. Yet I have no problem with the sheep owner's actions. It was on his land. He was protecting his own animals. The owner of the dogs is only one who needs to apologize, to his children and to his neighbor.

I wouldn't call him scum, but he was definitely at fault. Ranchers are entitled to protect their livestock and sheep are sensitive creatures. A shock like this can cause them to abort if they're pregnant.

“And he said, ‘I shoot first.’” This man should not have a gun in his hand. Can't a rancher tell the difference between herding and attacking? Sad.

I think this ahole would shoot children if the wandered into his precious pen of sheep. This guy needs a mental evaluation as it will come back to haunt you if you don't.

Any so-called "rancher" who cannot tell the difference between a dog herding sheep and a dog attacking sheep has no business owning animals.

I agree that this situation would not have happened had the dogs' area been more secure. However, as the dogs ended up in a 'neighbors' yard, it is very likely that the neighbor knew the dogs and who they belonged to and had at least a few other options besides "I shoot first". Even someone who wasn't aware of the breeding of the dogs could look and them and tell they weren't rogue animals and either animal control or the owners should have been notified. The sheep owner was in the wrong morally and sounds like a complete moron with a gun.

First of all, why put "pets" in quotes? They were pets, and I'm sure the farmer knew them. Sometimes animals get out in spite of our best efforts. Second, what if the kids got out of the house and were chasing the sheep. Would he have been justified in killing them?

Second, what if the kids got out of the house and were chasing the sheep. Would he have been justified in killing them?

According to "MLH in OK," Yes. The rancher would have been perfectly justified in shooting the neighbors "children" if they were running around in the flock.

Wow! Way to blow things out of proportion people. Go from a guy killing dogs that are a nuisance to his livestock on HIS property to oh he would have shot the kids. Please calm down people and quit trying to overhype things like the media. None of you know the full story here, the dogs could be a nuisance to the whole neighborhood escaping all the time, the dogs could have been out playing in the mud and looked like mangy strays when he shot. Even if none of this happened he is still in the right to protect his property and livestock. That's why the law is on his side. Don't want your dog shot by the rancher next door get the electric invisible fence problem solved dog never leaves your yard again. IMO the dog owner is the moron not the rancher

Dogs can act completely different around other animals than they do when at home where they belong. If the owner "knows" that his dogs were just herding the sheep, why didn't he go fetch them and bring them home? The whole story isn't quite here.

I used to raise pigs for 4-H when I was younger. I had just purchased piglets and had them in a pen with a shed attached to it one year. A pair of german shephards got into their pen one night and slaughtered them all. They were so happy when they saw me and thought they had done me a favor. I wasn't so pleased. They were buried with the piglets. A dog that will harm domesticated animals doesn't need to be around.

MLH in OK Comment collapsed by the community

No the scum is to guy who did not control his "pets".

Oh BS on you....the sheep man should have had a better fence around his pen if he was so concerned about them....if a little kid wandered in and was trampled to death or somehow hurt by his sheep would that be okay by you....yes the dogs should not have gotten loose BUT two wrongs don't make a right....that old sheeper should be very scared....animal lovers can be a wacky bunch even more so than gun nutters!!!

Who the hell lives in a fantasy world where nothing ever goes wrong, dogs never escape, things don't go as planned. I had a dog that escaped so many times, jumped 6' fences and gates, shot out of the door, broke anti-jump harnesses. The aholes that think shooting pets is dandy need to find their black hearts.

"animal lovers can be a wacky bunch even more so than gun nutters!!!"

After reading some of these posts, I couldn't agree more.

Unlike most of the hippies on this forum, I actually own livestock. I've also been feuding with my neighbor for years over her...we'll call it a dog to be polite. I'd shoot it in a second, might even unload an entire magazine into it just to feel better if given the chance.

For YEARS the neighbor's dog has whittled my farm down to nothing. I had a dozen ducks, 35 chickens, 25 turkeys, etc. The key word is "had." Right now all I have are 7 goats. This dog is a terrier. It has a taste for blood. Every time something dies, the "owner" makes a sarcastic comment and writes a check. Animal control comes out monthly. The "owner" was a local elected official, so they won't dare confiscate the dog. So they keep getting called, and they keep coming out to warn my neighbor. Being "neighborly" I have spared the dog every incident. But there comes a time when mercy goes out the window. Because of all the bloodshed at the hands of the neighbor's dog, even animal control is suggesting "off the record" I put out poison bait, bludgeon it with a baseball bat if I can get close enough, etc. It's pretty bad when animal control agrees the dog needs to be put down, but can't legally help because the owner has connections.

If any of you moved next door to me, and your dog wandered into my goat pasture the day you moved in, it would be dead before you found out you had a neighbor. Why? Because when you've seen enough of your flocks or herds die, anything on your property that even looks at your animals becomes a threat.

I don't know any more about this particular situation than what the rest of you guys read, but I do know that I have been in that man's shoes. This very morning a husky was on my front porch making a ruckus. I didn't shoot. Why? I wasn't after my livestock or in the pasture. That being the case, I chained it up and walked the neighborhood to take it home. owner thanked me, and went about his business. It ends up at my door, I'll take it home yet again. But it goes 20 feet south of where I found it this morning, and I will shoot without hesitation. City people sometimes don't get the big picture unfortunately. They care for dogs, but not some animal they've only seen on a menu. My goats are more precious to me than YOUR dog. Just like YOUR dog is more precious to you than my goats.

Lastly, for all you people all claiming you can tell the difference between herding and attacking, I'm going to call your bluff. The article states the owner paid $1,000 each and they had all been freshly groomed/manicured, slept with his daughters, the whole 9. Now are all of you telling me this was a trained sheep dog? The BREED doesn't make it a herding animal. The TRAINING does. This sounds more like some yuppie's pet according to the article, not working dogs.

A few months back I heard a ruckus outside, and charge into the yard and catch a flash of a dog as a group of animals stampede and scatters in my field. I see raised ears, hear loud parks, and see the dog pacing and separating the animals, nipping at the heels. Is he attacking or herding? I continued to watch while hopping the fence, and suddenly he's not just barking and chasing. He nips the heels of a baby he culled from the herd, and the baby goes down. Dog pounces on top of the baby, and within seconds there are jaws around the neck. Unless you know the dog, you NEVER know the intent. I'm all for "shoot first."

Another one of the (obviously very) few on here who own livestock, and has had to deal with the "friendly" neighborhood dogs harrassing said valuable livestock.

Very likely these dogs had been out before. I strongly doubt it's the first time they've "escaped". & I'll bet there is more to the farmer's statement about "shooting first". He's probably already lost plenty of sleep over what to do about this clueless man who can't understand that his neighbor does not have to endure loose dogs harrassing his livestock.

And no, it is not okay to let your dogs escape "every so often" as a few posters said. Not okay at all. Maybe if a plane crashed into your house, it's excusable that they got out. Or house caught on fire. A tornado or hurricane took the house & yard apart? Otherwise man up & contain your dogs, if you give a damn about them.

Untrained, unsupervised dogs "herding" livestock is actually terrorizing livestock, and is very, VERY dangerous to said livestock. They do not have to bite or draw blood to fatally injure the livestock.

There is no such thing as an untrained dog innocently herding livestock. You are thinking of the trained sheepdogs you watch on tv - those dogs have been intensively trained & are still closely watched by their handlers.

This tragic event is entirely the fault of the dog's owner, morally, rationally, & legally.

I'm dealing with a similar case now - a new next door neighbor who moved out into the sticks & thinks it's just great that she doesn't have to walk ole Rufus anymore - she can just turn him loose! :-/

I've had several casual conversations with her, but she's just not getting the point. So it's getting to the serious stage now - written warning next, then police call, and if the authorities can or will do nothing, well something tragic is going to befall dear old Rufus.

And don't even try - I love dogs more than anyone can - I built my 3 a secure half acre yard to run in, they sleep with me at night, and I still take them on frequent walks & to training class. But yes, I would take out this dog who is harrassing my horses (who are now afraid to use their best field because of this dog "innocently" herding them everytime he "escapes" (is let loose). I would be within the law & not happy about it, but I would do it.

Moral: if you care about your dogs, contain them on your property unless they are leashed. Occasional escape is NOT acceptable.

Ghiz from NJ,is the only one that posted on this mess,that made any sense of this disaster!I personally too,am a huge dog lover,i train,breed,raise,show german shepherds,and also breed them for k-9,working purposes,i also am a professional groomer,and i keep my dogs secured behind fencing,privacy fencing,6 ft. high kennel runs,in other words i am a responsible dog owner.i also am a k-9 behaviorlist,,and yes when a dog encounters other animals "prey drive",can kick in,and that same warm fuzzy dog,can run a sheep into the ground, or worse, in terror.i can easily see a few of my own gsd's,tasting some lamb chops.and yes,training has to be done for herding,i have a few dogs with herding titles on them.Also to clarify "Bernese Mountain" dogs are from the working,not herding group,and are part of the swissy family,for human search&rescue.Sorry everyone,"Mr.Yuppie",did not secure his dogs properly,just like my neighbor doesn't,and the first time his dog,ever harms my grandchildren,or friends,i guess "Cora","Junior","Wunder",can have a few good chomps out of him,then there will probably not be much to return home!!If parents do not hold their children accountable anymore for their actions,what would make you think they would their dogs.these are the same people that let their kids run wild,screaming,and yelling out in public,while you are trying to enjoy a movie,dinner,shopping.At the end of the day,a law is a law,my dogs have never been loose off my property,for years,and years,go figure!

And you, would rightly be arrested. You gonna say that geese and sheep would terrorize "what"? The gentleman with the sheep had the RIGHT to defend his flock. You, however, would be charged with animal cruelty, and most likely have your pants sued off.

The point is, these folks needed to make damn sure their yard was secure BEFORE letting those dogs out. Considering their size, I bet their yard was nowhere near secure. I have pugs, and my back yard is SECURE. They can't even dig out. That is the mark of a RESPONSIBLE DOG OWNER.

Sounds like retaliatory killing to me....makes you an ass.

Karma does suck - wait until it catches up with you.

I'm sorry but I will never side with a cat-killer. You're a fool.

rickintheforest, you're what we refer to around here as a jackass.

And you, would rightly be arrested.

while I agree that shooting the neighbors animals should get your arrested (as rickintheforest insinuated doing), this rancher SHOULD ALSO be arrested.

He's an @!$%# of the highest order, he should be punished.

Oil can suppressor on a .22 fired from inside a room through an open window won't be heard from the outside, especially if you use sub sonic rounds. Would be lots of cats, geese, etc. just "disappearing". No body no crime.....

Sorry ... but you sound like an awful person. Killing small animals to secure your vendetta. You should have contained your dog like a good neighbor, instead. I have twelve (actual herding) dogs and I keep them off of my neighbor's property.

TODD...... that action could get you 20 years.... suppressors without the proper tax stamp are illegal regardless of what they are made from....

So you kill innocent animals to spite your neighbor ... SICK !

TODD...... that action could get you 20 years.... suppressors without the proper tax stamp are illegal regardless of what they are made from....

And the BATF tends to "shoot first".

rickintheforest

Wow, you seriously need mental help. And to think you are allowed to own a gun. It's people like you that make us gun owners look bad.

Rickintheforest, and here i thought you were anti-guns. That must be only if you use them on people.

Steve- Who says I don't have the proper stamps and permits??? Hoo Hoo Haa Haa Haaaaa! (evil laugh)

noyb-2484315

I'm sorry but I will never side with a cat-killer. You're a fool.

Difficult and sometimes cruel decisions have to be made for self preservation. My cousin raises chickens and sells the eggs. A neighbor had a cat that came on to her property, into her chicken pen, and killed her chickens.

Many times she asked the neighbor to keep the cat at home. The neighbor laughed at her and said cats were free spirits. My cousin didn't want to kill the cat. In desperation, she captured it and gave it to another cousin who lives many miles away.

She then got a puppy to raise with the chickens and defend them in case the neighbor got another cat.

LOL. I'm pretty sure intentionally shooting something doesn't really qualify as "karma".

(Maybe if a box of bullets fell off the shelf and hit your neighbor on the head?)

rickintheforest

I had a neighbor like this once...her problem was that after she shot my dog it was her animals that were at risk if they came on my property...I've shot more geese, sheep, goats and cats that came over from her side than I can remember...karma sucks

Rick... let's see if I can remember your anti-gun post from the other day....

rickintheforest

Thats funny...I walk out of businesses where they let gun toting toothless rednecks come in packing heat....ever noticed how the biggest gun supporters are the poorly educated whites amongst us?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/19/17016843-hold-the-pepperoni-and-a-gun-at-virginia-pizzeria?commentId=74295783#c74295783

Who's the toothless redneck again?

Karma does indeed suck... I hope you get a whole mouthful.

Its the dog owners fault why the dogs are dead..not the shooters fault.

Dogs escape from their back yard..went on anothers property..in area where sheep were...BYE BYE DOGS!

FIX THE FENCE!

When I was growing up, a neighbor shot and killed my best dog. It was after his chickens. I was really really sad, a boy and his dog, as it were. The neighbor was right, my dog was wrong. This was a long time ago '62, in a very rural area, and all the dogs ran lose. In Oregon in those days any dog that threaten livestock was shot. Not all neighbors are like this, but you really have to keep your dogs in a really strong enclosure or risk losing them. Running lose, they also be hit by traffic.

I've had dogs kill my goats. These dogs were pets and purebreds. It doesn't matter. If I had been home, I would have shot them. The goats were MY beloved pets, as well as a source of income, and I shouldn't be asked to allow someone else's pets to kill them. That said, I would be sure the dogs were really posing a threat before shooting them. Chances are that they were, though. The dogs that killed my goats were much smaller than Bernese Mountain dogs.

I am so sorry for the dog's owner's but they did get out and were chasing or herding sheep. He has a right to protect livestock. I have read stories from all over of lamas, goats, sheep, and horses terrorized or killed by loose dogs. It is the dog owner's responsibility to keep them confined. Yes things happen and my dogs have gotten out at times.

I also abhor anyone else's animals coming in my yard unwelcomed!! It is almost like home owners/renters have no rights! Get real people and work at being responsible owners!!

Did he try to call the dogs off before he shot them? Seems like there may have been a better way to deal with the situation - there's a difference between herding and attacking.

The mere fact that the Bernese Mountain dogs were running the sheep could have caused harm to the sheep. These were "pet" dogs not trained to herd sheep or any other domestic herd animals.

Rick probably never owned a gun in his life. The rest of his story is BS too. Probably doesn't own any pubes yet either.

We had two huge Labrador Retrievers while I was a kid, our neighbor had a zillion cats. I can't tell you how many of their cats were killed by our dogs. Their cats were constantly coming into our yard and on our back porch. We had a privacy fence and our dogs rarely got loose. The neighbors called the police repeatedly to report our dogs killing their cats, the police told them to keep the cats out of our yard and they wouldn't get killed.

Daisy is right.

These animals are trained to move sheep from one place to another not eat them like the pitbulls may have been trying to do. Its friggin ridiculous that you folks don't see the difference. Nowhere does it say that the dogs were attacking the sheep. Additionally if he gets rid of his fence in his backyard and the sheep move onto his property would he be allowed to do the same thing as his neighbor????

tech if the neighbors animals got on his property then he has the same rights to protect his property(house/yard) from any damages that could be incurred by the animals, just as the rancher has the right to protect his property (livestock) from the dogs.

Back in the late 1970's I lived in Susanville, CA and on my way home, I saw 4 loose dogs running down and attacking little lambs. 3 of the little lambs were already dead in the field. The dogs were neighborhood dogs allowed to run free by their owners. I stopped at the farmhouse and told the farmer/rancher. He thanked me and grabbed his shotgun. I got back in my car and continued home. I love dogs and have always owned one or more dogs. I also don't let them run loose. I didn't blame the man for protecting his little lambs, and I don't blame the dogs, I blame the dogs owners for letting them run loose. And they were all different kind of dogs and different size. Because they were allowed to run loose, they banded together and caused damage.

In this story, I feel sorry for all involved, including the dogs. The man had lost sheep before, and was afraid he would again. I hope that the dog's owners will further escape proof their back yard before they get any more dogs. It may have been the only time the dogs got out, I don't know. But they found a way to get out and it turned out tragic. Only a very few times have I ever had one of my dogs get loose in all these 4 decades of dog ownership (5 if you include when I was a kid.) Luckily, I've never lost a dog to a car or someone protecting their own, and no one ever lost their own because of mine. I always went back and found where the weak point was and fixed it (or my husband did).

My neighbor has a dog, Bubba, a male mixed lab. Bubba would charge us, growling and showing teeth, when we came around our house on the side seperating our properties with only a low fence seperating us from the dog. Even though the neighbors had an invisible fence, and the dog having a collar that delivered a shock when the dog exceeded the boundry, on he came. A call to the neighbors explaining the problem and asking that they do something about their dog resulted in an accussation from them that we were suggesting that they kill the dog -- to that we had teased the dog making him do this. Well, the accuastions were not true, our stance was one of that the dog should be (re)trained.

We are animal lovers, but not to the extent that we accept an animals capacity to harm us. To this day we are considered by our neighbor to be an enemy -- go figure.

This guy knew these dogs were not going to hurt his sheep. He is an absolute dick.. He could and should be sued on those grounds.. Shepherds know about sheep herding dogs..I would make him pay a bunch to defend himself.. Grief cuts deep.!

lesson dreamer, I love dogs, i grow up whit dogs but some time the dog are very agressive ider the litle chihuahuas and people are afraid, I saw that many times I stop my dogs for barking and harrasing kids and are them : small dogs ! I dont blame the dogs, I blame the OWNER neglet, the dogs don made a hole in the groud overnight, they saw that and due NOTHING, probably the dogs just harrasing the sheeps but if I am sheep owner will be serius about that, protect his sheeps, extremy actions: shot the dogs, end of the problems. They lose their "pet" dog but is ALL their fault, they come in inside of the neighbord property, was not outside, do you understand that ? my sister have a two litle dogs and this litle fellows act like a vicios dogs and some people freeze when become in front them and they barking very loud, I reprimend my sister for not contein their crazy behaivor is no nice...

Anyone who is around animals very much can tell when one is aggressive. This guy just has an itchy trigger finger. Bock better keep close tabs on his kids!

If someone said you must give up half your plan for revenge against someone who defended their property (sheep) from dogs at large, which half would you give up ....... thinking about it or talking about it?

I see the newsvine bedbug is out today. Go away and have an original thought or STFU.........

denver bill- talking about it ;)

IXLR8

I see the newsvine bedbug is out today.

Ahhh, name calling. The mark of a thoughtful, well reasoned and persuasive argument.

Go away and have an original thought or STFU.........

I might take your advice, if I valued your opinion.

hahahahah, bill looks like you got under ixler8's skin, guess his skin isn't very thick either, not to mention not much between the shoulders.

I agree. If these animals were 1K each, he should have taken more measure to keep them in his yard. The article also states that the sheep were in a fenced area and the dogs got in there. I too have a border collie and she can be very intense when herding. I can't blame the rancher for this.

It's not hard at all to tell the difference between the "eye" and predatory behavior. You'd have to have been raised in a completely animal-free environment to mistake it.

The core of the issue is that many folks no longer know their neighbors. If you know your neighbors, you know their children, pets, livestock, and bad habits.

My daughter accidently didn't latch our gate yesterday. We let our dog out and didn't realize it, but he ran out of the yard to our neighbors house. When my daughter came home and we realized max was not in the yard, she broke down into tears. I went looking for him, and the neighbors had let him into the house and was about to call me.

I'm glad my neighbors do not "shoot first". If your answer is "I shoot first", you are more harmful to society than dogs.

If you can't control your dogs, then you run the risk of something like this happening.

I question whether you really own dogs if you say something like this. Seriously, almost any dog is going to get out of the yard infrequently, especially when they're basically still puppies (as they are at 1 and 2 years old).

The rancher is a @!$%#ing @!$%#, he should AT LEAST be forced to pay restitution to the neighbor (at the very least).

I'm glad my neighbors do not "shoot first". If your answer is "I shoot first", you are more harmful to society than dogs.

^this. the ranchers response is more than enough proof that he's mentally unstable and shouldn't be allowed to own firearms. He's a ticking time bomb, at some point he's going to shoot one of his neighbors kids and then state definitively "I shoot first."

A @!$%#ing @!$%#.

He is a complete @!$%#. My guess is he shot the dogs because he doesn't like the neighbor.

AleChild

My daughter accidently didn't latch our gate yesterday. We let our dog out and didn't realize it, but he ran out of the yard to our neighbors house. When my daughter came home and we realized max was not in the yard, she broke down into tears. I went looking for him, and the neighbors had let him into the house and was about to call me.

I'm glad my neighbors do not "shoot first". If your answer is "I shoot first", you are more harmful to society than dogs.

My last neighbor had a pitbull, personally I'm not a big fan of the breed BUT this one was an exception, everytime he would get out of his yard I would do the same thing.

There's a difference though, even though these dogs are bred for it, the neighbor had every right to shoot them.

Rancher's livelihood usually depends on their livestock, I completely understand the concept of shoot first, a few years ago I rented a house on over 6 thousand acres, they had free roaming sheep and cows, it was on me to make sure my dog didn't get out of my fenced in yard and harass the animals.

Same thing applies here. As bad as I feel for the owners, it is on them to make sure their dogs don't get out.

I think if you live in a place where you, or your extended family like your dogs, are in danger of being shot simply for wondering onto your neighbor's property, there is something wrong. I can fully understand that if these were a breed of dog, like lets say pitbulls, that were actively trying to kill his sheep, and there was no way for him to restrain them, then shooting was justified. But in this case, this guy was just being a huge pu%%$$y proving to his neighbor that he doesn't want his animals there. He wasn't defending, he was proving a point.

"I shoot first"

My guess is that most of you have never farmed or ranched..... when you see stray animals on your property you have no idea if it has disease, was abandoned, rabid... who knows...

All you know for certain is there is a threat on your property.... do you wait and see? Or deal with it now.....

Or you could put it another way..... how long are you going to allow that RAT/CAT/BIRD or SNAKE to run around your house before you take care of him? Could be the neighbors pet?

Steve, you don't know your neighbor's dogs? Are they "stray animals"?

We don't have to be farmers to use just plaon old common sense.

Herding dogs have been known to attack and kill sheep if they get too wound up, have been misbred, or for no reason at all.

ANY dog can run a sheep to death, just "playing." To the sheep, it's not play. They're running from a predator. That's how herding works, and why we use dogs. In their little, sheepy brains, they're in danger of death and have to GET AWAY.

It's not funny, it's not sweet, and it's not harmless when dogs get loose and harass livestock. The rancher was well within his rights -- and not being a jerk or mean or cruel -- when he shot the dogs.

Natural behavior for a dog when herding is to remain on the opposite side of the sheep from the human, making the dogs difficult to catch at best, and impossible at worst. The rancher could have tried to catch the dogs, while the sheep were being harassed, when they weren't his dogs and wouldn't necessarily come to his whistle, or he could shoot them and protect his own living.

Sometimes life sucks.

Steve-446003

I grew up a dairy farmer. You always investigate first. You always respect your neighbors animals, as they should yours. Do you think if the sheep got out and started running around the neighbors house and got killed for it, that this conversation would be ant different?

"I think if you live in a place where you, or your extended family like your dogs, are in danger of being shot simply for wondering onto your neighbor's property, there is something wrong."

What a silly comment. The dogs were shot, not somebody's kids. And those dogs were harming a rancher's livelihood. Sheep give birth in the early spring. It's not unlikely these sheep were pregnant at this time of year and this sort of harassment can cause them to abort.

Why must people make such stupid extrapolations? Two dogs were shot and suddenly everyone in the neighborhood is at risk.

Why must people make such stupid extrapolations? Two dogs were shot and suddenly everyone in the neighborhood is at risk.

Yes, that guy is surely not wrapped too tight. The problem here isn't the two dead dogs, but the act of a loose cannon with no concern for his neighbor's pets. How far will this guy go in the future. Karma...

AG99

If you can't control your dogs, then you run the risk of something like this happening. I have a herding dog and when she gets that border collie stare on her, you'd think she was stalking with the intent to kill if you didn't know better. Two big, black dogs whose breed you may not know could easily look to be threatening the sheep. I blame the owner, not the shepherd.

That's the problem with dog owners in this country. They think everyone should make allowances for their precious pets. This guy's dogs were harassing his neighbor's sheep, pure and simple. So what if they were pets and $1k each? That makes it all right?

I agree that the owner should have had better control of the dogs, but things like this can happen outside any control or fault of the owner.

While we don't know the whole story, or what caused this man to shoot, I have serious doubts that there was any evidence the sheep were in danger besides the dogs chasing them. The owner should have been alerted, reprimanded, and possibly cited for any violations, not having to explain to his children why their pets were mowed down by their neighbor. These poor children will probably hate this man for the rest of their lives, and lead to a very tense neighborhood.

And I've had Border Collies my whole life, and I disagree with your assessment that the Border Collie stare is easily confused with an intent to kill.

A true shepherd would know this, so this man doesn't deserve to be referred to as such.

Legal, yes, lacking of any common sense or compassion, absolutely.

"And I've had Border Collies my whole life, and I disagree with your assessment that the Border Collie stare is easily confused with an intent to kill."

It can. I've taken my dog to the dog park and when she gets like that, I've had other dog owners express concern. Most people haven't had BCs their whole life and can be confused.

But we aren't talking about BCs. That was just an example. These Mt Dogs are huge and not many people have them. Their behavior is not well known. The rancher/shepherd/whatever may have known where they came from or he may not. His sheep were probably down the road a little, not right next door. He was protecting his livelihood from an immediate threat. As has already been pointed out, those dogs were doing damage just by chasing the sheep around, and given the owner had already had dog problems, his reaction was not inappropriate.

Having lived on a farm, and having had dogs attack the animals, I agree with the sheep owner. the dogs that killed our animals were not the normal kill the sheep type dogs but they were not under supervision at the time.

it is hard to tell the difference between animals that are being nice when harassing animals and those try to get in a position to kill, Have you ever watched a documentary of wolves attacking they first heard the animals then pick the weakest to kill. and how do you know these dogs were trained to heard. it sounds like they were house dogs not working dogs.

The sheep owner and the law is correct. second time dogs attacked our animal they were shot, one got a way and yelped for a week from the buck shot. the owners lived just up the road.

I agree that someone who pays $2,000 plus for a pair of beautiful Burnese Mountain dogs should be smart enough to enclose them in an inescapable pen/yard/etc. They are vulnerable to theft.

I wouldn't shoot them (unless I saw them actually biting the sheep.) I would leash them and call my neighbor. If I were really teed off (repeated escapes with no attempt to correct the situation), I would turn them over to animal control. The neighbor could go to the shelter to pay a fine to retrieve them.

Got to go so I won't be responding to any additional comments. (In case anyone wonders why I abandoned this thread, given that I started it and all.)

My guess is that most of you have never farmed or ranched....

I grew up a dairy farmer. You always investigate first. You always respect your neighbors animals, as they should yours.

And those dogs were harming a rancher's livelihood.

Here's some perspective that no one has approached. We are assuming this guy is a farmer, rancher, shepherd and that the sheep are his livelihood. While that is very possible, here's another DISTINCT possibility.

The sheep are a property tax shelter, nothing more. The "rancher/shepherd" is probably a very smart Tax Attorney or Accountant who understands all the available tax breaks. Chester Springs/W. Vincent Twnshp is the wealthiest area of Chester County. And while Chester County does have farm land, it's hardly an agricultural county. It's a County of 500,000 people, just 1 county west of Philadelphia.

Put a couple of sheep on your property (or cows), and you can declare your property a "working farm". Doing so provides you with HUGE property tax breaks.

So before you call this guy a professional rancher who knows all about shepherding, dog breeds, and firearms... think again. He's probably an Accountant who works in Philly and has sheep on his property to take advantage of the huge tax breaks that go along with "working farm'.

It doesn't change any facts, it just presents them under a different color light. The guy is still within his rights to shoot the dogs... just don't try to convince me these sheep were his livelihood. This is Chester County, not Centre County. The sheep are a tax shelter.

My guess is that most of you have never farmed or ranched..... when you see stray animals on your property you have no idea if it has disease, was abandoned, rabid... who knows...

Dude, this was in CHESTER SPRINGS, PENNSYLVANIA. What essentially amounts to a suburb of Philly. The rancher knew damn well the dog wasn't diseased or rabid, in fact he more than likely knew it was the neighbors dog and shot it anyway.

Cause he's a bitter, spiteful, ignorant, unstable @!$%#.

Chester Springs/W. Vincent Twnshp is the wealthiest area of Chester County. And while Chester County does have farm land, it's hardly an agricultural county. It's a County of 500,000 people, just 1 county west of Philadelphia.

yeah, someone who knows something about geography. Having been raised in that area of Pennsylvania, it's pretty much a suburb of Philly. We're not talking about packs of dogs chasing sheep in Wyoming here folks...

the rancher is scum.

Drowning Grover, I totally agree. He knew they were pets, he also probably figured out they were herding, not attacking, and shot them anyway. He could easily have shot in the air to scare them away, but he chose to kill. Some people are just scum. Wouldn't bother me if his gun backfired the next time he decided to kill a dog.

Who cares why the rancher had sheep? I have a friend who has sheep to supplement her income. Livestock and their pastures require considerable work to maintain, so people don't usually purchase them on a whim. Loose dogs are a menace to livestock and very often kill them-- especially if there is more than one dog (which there was, in this case). I've had livestock killed by dogs. Unfortunately, I wasn't there at the time. I definitely would have grabbed my gun and shot them if they were attacking the animals. If they were just chasing, I might have tried to catch the dogs, but the rancher had every right to do what he did.

but the rancher had every right to do what he did.

yes, he had the right to...

...but that doesn't change the fact that he's a spiteful, ignorant @!$%#.

Sorry, but pets who aren't killing livestock>livestock. The sheep owner could have entirely avoided this situation by thinking before shooting.

no, livestock are NOT greater than people's harmless pets. I can't believe how many insensitive folks (I would call them Aholes, but I don't wanna name call) are gracing us with their presence today.

Pregnant sheep (which start giving about next month) are endangered by stress. The people should have kept their dogs in, especially if they knew about the other dogs being killed.

Livestock are employment, and as such, mean being able to put food on the table and pay taxes. There's a reason for the law that lets the livestock owner protect his investments.

The dogs were not. That the owners stressed how much the dogs cost meant that they weren't just family, soul-loving, saved-from-death Humane Society muts. The people can take their homeowners insurance and buy new purebreds.

City folk assume that most dogs are "harmless". I've seen coddled pets turn into killers when they get into a pasture. They're worse than wolves, because they don't kill just one and eat it. Dogs keep killing until the whole flock is dead, or they get tired- whichever comes first. A large dog can kill fast, too. They go for the throat. I don't care how expensive the dogs were, the rancher was in the right.

They're worse than wolves, because they don't kill just one and eat it. Dogs keep killing until the whole flock is dead, or they get tired- whichever comes first. A large dog can kill fast, too.

this is bull@!$%#. A large dog escaping from his owners backyard that usually eats a diet of Blue Buffalo (or whatever the most expensive brand of dog food one can buy, considering the neighborhood this occurred in) DOES NOT kill sheep and other livestock.

The worse they'll do is nip at the heels. Yes, this could potentially cause the flock to panic and some may die from that, but the dogs DO NOT "go for the throat."

Just what livestock/dog experience do you have? I worked a ranch down in Idaho a couple miles out of town and it was a monthly event when we would have a pack of dogs attacking our cows. They didn't just nip at the heels. They didn't eat them. They simply killed them and went after the next one. Half of them we shot had collars on them and the tearful owners would berate us for killing their gentle pet. I don't doubt they were gentle in their own yard and in their own living room. But around livestock, they were either predators or chasers for fun and would put the calves right through a barbwire fence, which is a little rough even on a cow's hide.

I still live in the country. Have a neighbor with two pure-bred German Shepherds. They are wonderful dogs and they come wagging up to me every time I go over there. But every time they come over here, they kill my chickens. I like my neighbors. I like their dogs. They had a litter of pups and sold them at $500/ea. But I'm not raising dog food. I feel bad for my neighbors in that they spent $500 on an underground wire to contain their dogs. Of course I had also spent more than that fencing four acres with 3 inch net wire to keep my chickens in and dogs out, but dogs will jump, climb, wriggle and squirm their way in - not because they are mean or hungry, they are just dogs. I didn't want to shoot the dogs. I didn't shoot the dogs, but my neighbor knew that I would if he didn't take the responsibility to keep them home. Whether the neighbor is a bad guy or not is almost beside the point. Controlling his neighbor's dogs isn't his responsibility. Could he have handled it differently? Probably, but since livestock in the area had recently been killed, it is hard to blame him too much. Our society always wants somebody else to be held responsible. We like it when people cut us some slack, and thankfully they do, but when they don't, then suck it up and realize that ultimately it was YOUR responsibility and YOU are the reason the dogs are dead.

The Truth-2190315 - you are correct, some people are just a-holes, and you seem to be a big one.

You forgot , big guy! That fellow has a gun, and he's not afraid to use it. You assault him on his property, in his home, thats a violation of the Castle Doctrine, you and St.Peter could end up feeding those dogs by hand in the Great Beyond! And he wouldnt spend an hour behind bars. You sound Bogart/Cagney/Cheap Steak Tough!I've had to respond to a few crime scenes in my day where guys like you were laid out. Always seems to end that way!

hahaha...........The Truth-2190315 you are one bad arse internet tough guy. And you call out the other dude hiding behind his screen. Right. You maybe able to throw down a few rounds, but I'm guessing smarts isn't your thing, as this dude that shot the dogs, will probably shoot you first like his statement. But I guess you can jump him by surprise, which would then make you a stalker and a coward.

Here's a statement to naw on, "your intelligence stops where your first starts".

The punisher: Hey genius, it's "your intelligence stops where your fist starts". Learn how to spell OK? Oh and Blackborg, go back to spanking your monkey in your moms washroom. And fix that 16 year old acne problem you have. Crime scenes my *ss.

The punisher: Oh and another thing: It's spelled gnaw you idiot.

oh my bad, didn't know you were the grammar police too. By the way first is spelled wright or was that right, or did you mean my grammar was off. Ok you got me on gnaw, damn silent Gs..............gosh you're so smart.

Hey, Truth....see you haven't responded to Blackborg......

Hey just me: Anytime you'd like to say that to my face I'd be very happy to send you to your dentist.

How much time would you be willing to spend behind bars for assault?

In fact if you killed my dogs you would be dead. Got it? You are one tough guy hiding behind your little computer screen.

Or, for premeditated murder?

I've had to respond to a few crime scenes in my day where guys like you were laid out.

How much do they pay you to lick blood off the sidewalk?

Lori- you can't have lamb chops from adult sheep. No one said they were lambs. When one eats an adult sheep, they're eating mutton.

LOL Annie - you tell her. It was a stupid comment anyway.

I think there is some confusion here. Mutton can refer to the flesh of sheep, but it is also a specific dish, and not a very palatable one. If you have sheep to eat, mutton is not in my top 5 things to make out of it.

Actually, Annie, in the US any sheep once slaughtered may be labeled and sold as "lamb." When you get US lamb, you have no idea the age of the animal.

Mutton is so gross. You can tell the difference between mutton and lamb.

"if those sheep ever wound up on my property.....lamb chops for life"

Chances are, maybe one day, maybe one day those sheep will be on your property as lamb chops curtesy of your local grocery store. But for life...........................is that like lamb chops everyday for life?

What's priceless is that everyone keeps repeating 'I shoot first'. The sheep owner isn't the one giving the interview to the media, the dog owner is. He is the one that is claiming the sheep owner said that. I'm not thinking he's exactly unbiased. Until they have the sheep owner on video making that statement, an intelligent person would realize it is merely hearsay and not at all relevant.

Thank goodness somebody had to politicize this and tell us what some third party is thinking or doing.

When he knocks to borrow a cup of sugar... FIRE!

You can't kill people over dogs. If you think it is right you need some training in being human.

Yeah why not kill a person over your dogs....

Seems logical ;/

You can't kill people over dogs. If you think it is right you need some training in being human.

Must be nice to live in that perfect little Barbie world you live in. Say hello to Ken when you see him. LOL

I like my dogs a LOT MORE than I like people.

i used to laugh at people who treated their pets like another member of their family... but now? i don't know. without a doubt, i would use deadly force to protect my animal, even to the extent of ending another human's life. not a second thought or a tear shed. but, like in this story, once they were killed, would i go blow a hole in this @!$%#? i'd like to think not, as i've lived long enough to fear the consequences of my actions. but i'm not sure those sheep would live to see another day.

Yeah, just say you felt threatened.

And for a liberal... just say it's for the children...

I absolutely concur with LMS from CO. I have a ranch on the NM/TX border and know where you are coming from. The "cliff-dwellers" from the cities have no idea of how hard it is to make a living in ranching these days.... wild dogs are a greater menace to us than coyotes. That being said, I have a question... did the sheep owner know who the dogs belonged to, did he know the dogs or were they more dogs coming in and running his sheep. And yes, city folks, dogs can run sheep/goats into exhaustion and they die... especially the young ones. Over the years I have had to kill more wild/feral dogs than I can count that threatened our herd, and hardly ever had to bother with a coyote... my guard dogs keep the coyotes away. They patrol with our ranchhands on horseback.

While I concur that loose herding dogs are a problem, they aren't a problem that require the dogs die. There was absolutely nothing stopping this d!ck from collecting the two dogs and taking them back to their owner with a stern warning not to let them run loose. Shooting them was lazy and callous.

If the dogs were hit by a car, would the motorist be a d*ck? If the dogs were chasing a small child would it still not be okay? If the dogs were just never heard from again, who would you blame?

The sheep owner has an obligation to protect his animals, including from the neighborhood pets. The dog owner has an obligation to protect his animals by keeping them from harm and on his own property.

hey noyb - catching the dogs would be more easily said than done. The dogs (untrained dogs of a herding breed) would circle the sheep, fixated on chasing them. They would ignore the rancher, unless he got close - then they would run the other way. By the time the dogs could be rounded up (might take two or three fit people to catch one), there would be a stack of sheep carcasses that died of exhaustion/panic. There might also be a few aborted fetuses from the pregnant ewes.

Bottom line - the irresponsible dog-owner failed his pets by placing them in an inadequate enclosure.

Yes, I also agree with LMS from CO We used to keep horses and sheep. We had untrained herding dogs and they kept chasing the sheep till they literally died of exhaustion. We had to sell the sheep after the incident. Having dogs in an area where there are farms, you just keep your dogs where they belong. And that's indoors and you walk them on the leash or you teach them the proper commands to stay with you.

And on another note, as a non-american I'm completely amazed that reading most of these comments against the farm owner, if this would have been, in which ever way, a gun vs person straying into somebody's property story, most people would have no problem, that the same farm owner would have shot that person.

For all those suggesting the rancher catch the dogs, what makes them think the dogs would not bite. Unfortunately my dogs would bite anyone they perceived as a threat. And they would attack as a team. Good luck trying to catch or strike my male dog without being bitten. He is a tough cookie. Otherwise they are very loving until they feel threatened or cornered.

unclebux, didn't you read the article?

I can see he clearly did snoozer. He's making a point. If the dogs were attacking children, everyone would be a-ok with the killing of the dogs. But instead, the dogs were attacking sheep. His neighbor's livelihood. He had a right to protect them.

Well, since the dogs weren't "attacking" anything, your comment is pointless. But, gasp, won't someone think of the imaginary children!

had these trespassing dogs been attacking anybodies children, wouldn't you shoot first???

had these dogs (Burmese Mt. dogs) gotten into a fenced in yard full of children (instead of sheep), those children would have been in sever danger of being snuggled, licked, and tail wagged to death....

Everyone is assuming the man who owned the sheep knew this neighbor and his dogs. In some areas of PA there could literally be a mile or two between neighbors. By looking at the picture, I wouldn't be able to tell you what kind of dogs these were either. Not everyone knows the breed. We also have no proof that this man said "I shoot first". The fact of the matter is neither dog should have been on his property. The blame falls on the dog owner!

Also, you are taking the dog owner's word on whether the dogs were or weren't attacking anything. The dog owner that wasn't actually there when it all happened.

Something got shot with a gun. Have to keep the gun stories prominently displayed in the media.

.

There were no children. Do not invent children to make a weak analogy. Stay in reality.

A human life is worth more than a dogs. If you think otherwise then you probably need some therapy. It would be one thing if he shot the dogs purely to be malicious, but the dogs actually were attacking his property.

You are a dangerous person.... just the kind that should never have a gun. You would shoot a human over a dog. WOW!

When you get to the state pen, you won't be the one shooting first, Zippy. But you'll sure be on the receiving end of some shooters.

A human life is worth more than a dogs.

Possibly. I have meet some "humans" whose life was worth much less than a dogs. Sometimes people need to be taken out of this world for the good of the world. Quite a few of them comment on the Vine.

There are a great many people whose lives are worth less than a dog's. I'd put most of the posters on this thread in that category. Go clutch your pearls somewhere else, the Internet is too big and scary for you.

Shoot my dog...I shoot you...plain & simple. I can shoot first too.

And then after you shoot him, the cops shoot you. And then what? Does somebody shoot the cops on your behalf?

Or perhaps you live in some Third World hellhole where shooting people in vengeance is socially acceptable?

Hey the man has a gun. Maybe he felt threatened, after all he just shot his dogs.

Mymomdidnotraiseafool

When you get to the state pen, you won't be the one shooting first, Zippy. But you'll sure be on the receiving end of some shooters.

I doubt a jury would convict him....most humans love our animals and would not have a problem with the sheeper finding out what it's liked to be gunned down in cold blood....I'd love to be on that jury:)

And they say people arn't crazy, they just need help...........................If your dog was shot at, it's not the dog's fault, but you the dumb owner.

I doubt a jury would convict him....most humans love our animals and would not have a problem with the sheeper finding out what it's liked to be gunned down in cold blood....I'd love to be on that jury:)

So it's all right for a dog to run a sheep to death, as the dog owner admitted that his dogs had started doing, but it's not OK to prevent them.

You realize the person claiming that the dogs weren't attacking wasn't there, right?

Enough these were VERY large dogs. You mean the sheep are unharmed but somehow they were "attacking" GTFO.

Use your brains.

I agree. A couple of years ago, I was out walking our small pet and was attacked by two large dogs. I'd have killed them in a heartbeat if I'd had a weapon. I'm sick and tired of people who don't control their animals and then whine when something happens to them. The world doesn't belong to you and it doesn't belong to your animals. I don't have to love or care about your dog. I also am sick and tired of reading these "poor pet" stories. If people really love and value their pets, they will take better care of them. Period.

Marylanders you are an idiot but you are probably a member of the NRA who believes the answer to gun killings is bigger and larger guns and magazines. He knew damn well whose dogs those were or if he had a brain he did. I know my neighbors and their animals and if I see one loose I do not just kill it even if it is on my property. Also I am sure that you do not nor have you ever owned pets because if you do or had you know that at times they can get out. Sad they got out but laws in PA are old and out dated anyway and here are some examples.

It it illegal to sleep on top of a refrigerator outdoors.

Any motorist driving along a country road at night must stop every mile and send up a rocket signal,
wait 10 minutes for the road to be cleared of livestock, and continue.

Fireworks stores may not sell fireworks to Pennsylvania residents.

Any motorist who sights a team of horses coming toward him must pull well off the road, cover his car with a blanket or canvas that blends with the countryside, and let the horses pass. If the horses appear skittish, the motorist must take his car apart, piece by piece, and hide it under the nearest bushes.

Though you do not need a fishing license to fish on your own land, but a hunting license is required
to hunt on your own land.

Enough Said about laws in PA

100% agree. If he had a pool and his children drowned in it, than it's the homeowners fault for not having it secured. If the dogs got out of a fenced yard, than it's the homeowners fault for not making sure that is was secured. Unfortunate. But still his fault.

All the owners have to do is wait a couple years before showing this guy the error of his ways. Then it won't be traced back to them. What makes him think the next dead dog's owner won't be as much of a dick as he is.

Marylanders, someone should invest in buying you a brain because you obviously have none and you think all problems can be solved with a gun. You would do the same thing? I feel the same about out-of-control children. Perhaps if they came into this farmer's yard and harassed his sheep, he should shoot them too. How would you feel then? Would he be justified? By your reasoning he would. Think about your words before spewing out such nonsense.

I agree. This is one of those cases where this gun owner who decides to 'shoot first' should not be in possession of a gun. I can understand he wants to keep his sheep safe, but to do something like this, something that is too extreme and callous and without forethought, is just a precursor for something worse to happen.

IngVer is exactly right. People need to stop solving their problems at the end of a gun. These dogs were not attacking this guy's sheep!

This shooter is a a danger to that community. This is why our gun laws – and our property rights laws for that matter – are so screwed up.

I hope he never hears the last of it from his neighbors.

He needs to relocate his stupid self, his stupid gun and his stupid anger to a place out in the middle of nowhere, FENCE HIMSELF AND HIS SHEEP IN, and leave the rest of us alone.

As it is he took the lives of two animals for no legitimate reason. Exercising your "rights" can be very wrong in many cases, and he's the poster boy for that sad fact.

He brought a very tragic end to the simple and very typical case of two dogs getting out of their fenced yard.

If he had killed my dog under these circumstances I'd be livid.

He solved his "problem" with a firearm. Again, people need to stop solving their problems at the end of a gun.

Make Progress - You'd be equally livid if he'd used a slingshot, right?

I have never posted a comment on any site in my life, but just had to express my opinion (and that's all it is - an opinion & some comments from an animal lover). Sounds like this man is a whacked out, trigger-happy, dog-shooting, grumpy old man. What if it were some neighborhood children or, God forbid, his grandchild, that "jumped their fence" & ended up in his yard? Yes, I'm sure comments of this sort have been made over & over & over - I just didn't have time to read them all. In (only) my opinion, this idiot was just waiting for a chance to kill something else - who else has a shotgun at the ready, sheep or no sheep? I know a cattle farmer very well & yes, he checks on them frequently (they are his livelyhood), but he does not shoot first - he has other ways of protecting his property. There are so many other methods to scare off a non-vicious dog & if the man raises sheep, he sure the heck knows that Bernese Mountain dogs are not (normally) vicious. Methods such as air horns, mace, a shot in the air, etc., etc., etc. I'm being overly obnoxious on purpose, but give me a break. I have NO problem with owning guns, arming yourself, or protecting your home & family, but come on people! Dogs do, on occasion, get out of their fenced backyards. Sometimes little bratty kids get out of their parent's sight (which is completely careless & negligent behavior, if the "keep your dogs in your own yard" people are standing by their statements) and the rug-rats end up licking and trying to eat glass apples on display in a furniture store (an incident I observed just yesterday). And this example is a tame one, compared to the number of times I've seen parents "losing control of" or letting their little angels "jump the fence" in a store, with no regard for other shoppers. The owners of these dogs OBVIOUSLY loved them & did take the normal precautions for keeping them in the yard, but guess what? Stuff happens!! I don't have my shotgun cocked & loaded & just decide to shoot your child (or your dog or cat) because I "think" they are going to pull down a shelf of canned soup on my head. This man sounds like a geniune hot-head, just waiting for a reason to "prove his manhood." Please remember, these are just MY opinions - doesn't mean they're right. However, from the little I've read on this site, the haters will be coming after me - better go get my gun!