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Subscribe to RSSThe results of a months-long investigation into the reversal of post-traumatic stress disorder diagnoses at Madigan Army Medical Center are being kept confidential.
Earlier this month, Army Secretary John McHugh told reporters at Joint Base Lewis-McChord in Washington state that the Madigan findings would not be disclosed.
Days later, the Army denied Freedom of Information Act requests for documents related to the controversy made by three Seattle-area news organizations.
George Wright, an Army spokesman at the Pentagon, told NBC News that “concerns brought up in the Madigan matter will be addressed” in a separate forthcoming report by the Army's Task Force on Behavioral Health.
Wright said he had not viewed that document, which is an Army-wide review of mental health diagnoses as far back as 2001, and could not comment on what information it would include about the Madigan inquiry.
The Madigan investigation, completed last fall, sought to determine whether or not a team of forensic psychiatrists inappropriately changed soldiers’ PTSD diagnoses, perhaps to save the federal government money.
In a memo obtained last year by the Seattle Times, a Madigan Army Medical Center psychiatrist gave a presentation to colleagues in September 2011 in which he noted that a soldier medically retired with a PTSD diagnosis would collect $1.5 million in disability payments over his or her lifetime. The psychiatrist warned his colleagues against “rubber stamping” a PTSD diagnosis.
Around the same time, several soldiers screened at Madigan complained that their PTSD diagnoses had been switched to conditions like anxiety disorder, which could have affected their medical retirement rating and the amount of their disability payments.
A subsequent review of 431 Madigan cases — some of which had been overturned — led to PTSD diagnoses for 150 soldiers by last October, according to the office of Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash.
Murray pushed for the investigation into the PTSD diagnoses at Madigan — an Army hospital in Tacoma, Wash., that serves soldiers stationed at Joint Base Lewis-McChord — but has yet to see its findings.
The Madigan investigation was reported by the Seattle Times in January 2012. In May, McHugh announced the Army-wide review, which is said to contain 24 findings and 47 recommendations, and now according to Wright, details related to Madigan. Murray is scheduled to be briefed on the review in the next few weeks, Matt McAlvanah, a spokesman for the senator, told NBC News.
Last year, Seattle-area news organizations asked to see documents related to the inquiry through Freedom of Information Act requests.
Request denied
Patricia Murphy, a reporter at KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio, said the Army denied the station’s attempts to obtain information and subsequently denied an appeal. The Army described the Madigan documents as “pre-decisional,” a legal privilege extended to documents that influence new rules and regulations. In a letter to the station, the Army said this designation is meant to “protect the quality of agency decisions by encouraging frank and open discussions of agency policy.”
Murphy said she understood that the documents might contain sensitive government and patient information, but was hopeful the Army could strike a balance for transparency. “We don’t care about the names,” Murphy told NBC News. “We care about the reasons they were doing this and whether or not this was a cultural issue at Madigan.”
The Army has said that Madigan was the only Army hospital to employ a team of forensic psychiatrists who vetted PTSD diagnoses and said it had stopped that practice.
Last February, it announced that the hospital’s commander, Col. Dallas Homas, was reassigned during the inquiry. The Army reinstated Homas several months later after finding that he did not "exert any undue influence on PTSD diagnoses." The Army provided that document to KUOW in response to a FOIA request.
The Army also issued new guidelines for PTSD screening last April, discouraging staff from using testing to identify patients who might be "malingering" or faking their symptoms, an approach some soldiers claimed was utilized at Madigan.
Despite these corrective actions, critics of the decision to withhold the Madigan findings say that transparency is key to restoring trust in the Army’s ability to accurately diagnosis and treat PTSD.
Tom Tarantino, chief policy director of the advocacy organization Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America and a former Army captain, said that keeping the report confidential reflected a “shocking amount of tone deafness.”
“I don’t want anybody to release information that violates HIPAA, privacy or endangers national security, but there has to be some sort of accountability,” Tarantino said. He also fears that withholding the findings sends the wrong signal to soldiers who worry that the problems at Madigan could be widespread and might not seek mental health care as a result.
“You have to actually show patterns of behavior and convince people that you’re willing to change.”
Wright said the Army wanted to make public its report on behavioral health “as soon as possible,” but that it was weighing the feasibility of the recommendations and how to implement them.
“We expect that work to be completed shortly,” he said, “and then we will be able to share not only the findings, but the way ahead.”
Rebecca Ruiz is a reporter based in the Bay Area.
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It has always been common for the doctors to give a very low rating to veterans first time out to keep the amount of back pay due to a minimum. Disgusting to say the least. They hope you may not appeal and will just take the low rating they give you. I went from ten percent to fifty percent. The difference in back pay would have been tens of thousands had they given me the fifty percent first. Veterans don't come first with the government.
Dear Federal Government, you asked our youth to fight YOUR Oil War. Keep YOUR END OF THE BARGAIN. Do not go Republican cheap on our returning soldiers. And yes, I do mean Republican cheap. No other party has turned their backs on war veterans quite like you do. That's not an attack, that is a fact.
trust2112, I'm with you all the way. It angers me to no end to see the charity ads on tv to try to help our returning wounded. These folks made the ultimate sacrifice for their country and in my opinion they should have the best medical and psychiatric treament available for the rest of their lives if needed.
the government is the supreme ruler. we the people are to be used for their end.we are labour,tax revenue,and cannon fodder.totally expendable assets.nothing more.the tables have turned on us.this is just another example for all to see.
Par for the course with the DoD. Just look how they fought time and time again the existence of Gulf War Syndrome.
Use 'em up and spit 'em out!
But hey, they'll throw a hissy fit if you cut the production of the useless F-22s at 100 million a pop!
hey Trust and august . Our Military is a volunteer Military . no one asked for our kids to fight . they signed on the dotted line .at lease get it right. bet you a Low informed Voter too . people like you make me sick !
rusty jarhead, what do you mean our soliders don't come first..of course they do. That's how they get shot. At least maybe the oil companies could put Shell and Mobile on the sides of their helmuts. How 'bout the oil companies pay these guys for what they are. Mercenaries for Oil.
can we say cover up now?
WHAT IS NOT BEING REPORTED: veterans of combat being discharged, questionnaire, do you have memory's of combat situations, if yes is the answer, letters are sent to the veteran, prohibiting them from owning a firearm under penalty of imprisonment, it is estimated many thousand letters have been sent; remember Janet, "the biggest terrorist threat is returning veterans of the war"
if you desire to disarm a nation first start with the best trained .
Saxon, please do some research into that letter---prohibiting Vets from owning guns only after in Psychiatric Guardianship, letter not directed at Vets per se, only the ones that have been diagnosed with sever mental disorders, under monitored medical care, and are/could be dangerous to themselves and others. 2nd A rights have not nor will they be infringed on for Vets.
This is for those suffering with PTSD. I was a soldier, after about 10 years of service I started having bad dreams. There were several dreams that would repeat, but I never gave it a second thought because everyone has bad dreams. Still I thought I was no different than anyone else. The sleep deprivation started to have an effect on my health and started to affect my duty performance. After 12 years of service, I made the choice to get out. Still the nightmares continued, even getting worse at times, I felt I could not tell reality from the dream. Even though I was finished with the Army, 5 or 6 nights a week I was right back in uniform. I was seen at the VA on a regular basis because of my medical issues and my doctor had tried to get me to go to mental health for years. I would always respond to her with "why I'm not crazy". Then the panic attacks started. After a few trips to the hospital and a cardiac catheterization I finally agreed to go to mental health. They put me on the usual horrible drugs, prozac and xanax, all the while I keep asking "what is wrong with me?". They would respond with it could be anything and I would go home and take my prozac and xanax. Well after my 3rd time in the hospital and 2nd heart cath I pressed the issue and was told I could be the poster child for PTSD. When my rating came back at 0%, I knew then that it was going to be a long fight. It took over 12 years of fighting with the VA but I finally won my case. Those of you that do not suffer from this terrible disorder have no clue what it's like living with it or being a family member dealing with a loved one who does and your remarks are out of order. Those of you that are currently fighting the VA for benefits, never give up!
rusty jarhead -- Sorry but there ARE alot of fakes out there, whether YOU like it or not. It is not about the money. Its about whether or not a really has PTSD. There are alot of fakes for money out there.
skyparrot; wrong, must have psy review panel first, where you are allowed to present witnesses and cross examine evidence; this is not being done, just a findings by a bunch of social workers and letters sent to NCIC; it is a violation of constitutional rights and privileges; which Janet is fond of doing.
Why? The military has become its own fully weaponed sovereign nation and silently controls our government. We have evolved into a military controlled government; an unannounced coup d'etat.
Our three pronged system of checks and balances has been decimated, leaving the people powerless, as witnessed today.
Ummm trust2112, thats idiotic, the Dems have been far and away the worst offenders of not supporting our troops, just like your commie president is now, they are not providing combat armour and basic combat necessities, MSN ran a report about how troops are spending there own money and ordering gear online that they should be getting from the military. That is all Obama not the right.
This is happening and has been since Vietnam with Agent Orange and probably even back further. It's happening with my son-in-law and his buddies who saw combat. He's at 25% disability and was just denied 100%. He cannot work a civilian job. Luckily he just got a civilian contractor job at an Army base. What is he supposed to do if he breaks down while working there? He's terrified that if he does get help he'll be fired.
They are not faking and they barely will talk to each other about it. If their loved ones are lucky they might be able to get a few details so they can get some insight on some way to help. In the '80s I was a friend of an Army Ranger who worked point in Vietnam with his unit. He told me quite a bit of it. He was fun, but crazy as hell.
The VA is underfunded and understaffed and it makes my sick that psycholgists who have pledged to do no harm have furthered the problem. My son-in-law barely trusts my daughter and the rest of us,his family not to hurt him and it breaks my heart!
His buddies are the same. One guy in his weekend drill unit just killed himself. He hadn't been regular army for 20yrs and seemed fine. It was out of the blue. My son-in-law was mad and hurt that he didn't come to him, but he's the same way. This wasn't the first guy they've lost to suicide since coming home.
One of the first questions he was asked immediatly upon returning from combat overseas was if he ever felt like killing someone while there. In fact my Dad was asked the same and he went to Hungary as support personnal during the Bosnian War.
After I picked myself off the floor as they told me this, I asked them what where they supposed to say? Neither one really had an answer for that. Hello, Army? Just what kind of question is that? If a soldier is shot at don't you think he'd feel like killing him?
Unless you know some combat vet, do not speak of things you know not.
Vegas-I'm glad you kept at it and got the help and it worked. My son-in-law has agreed to keep seeking help, but his VA appts are usually a month apart and then he'll cancel. He'll also lie about taking his meds because he also can't stand them and says he doesn't want to feel happy because he doesn't trust that feeling, because it won't last.
Gary:
Did you forget?:
On a soldier's complaint about the inferior military equipment in Iraq, Rumsfeld said memorably, "You go to war with the army you have.".
The enlisted men and women of this country are just collateral damage to the government/military.
Hell they were removing treatment sheets showing line-of-duty injuries in Germany in the 90s. If you were about to retire medics were told to remove injury diagnosis from records. That is why I made copies, which I ended up using at the VA to prove the injury occurred. A wise old NCO recommended young troops do that-for once I actually listen!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe in the 90's that occurred. I don't know. But, I ran an aid station for several years at Fort Campbell. We kept our records in near perfect order. The only times their were errors were when someone would slip the patient note (SF-600) into the wrong file or the soldier would "lose" records in fear that an injury on record would hold them back from promotion. With that said, I kept copies of my medical records, awards, and deployment orders. It was the awards and deployment orders that the Army had "lost."
I'm going to believe 100% both of you. matt says they kept excellent care of their records and Diamondback says keep copy file for yourself. With people saying PTSD is a pansy cop out and people probably in the same unit seriously suffering from it I would say follow Diamondbacks advise JUST IN CASE. I commend Diamondbacks NCO for warning his young troops such a thing MIGHT happen. He could have just waved bye bye and walked away.
And yet, it was a moderate-to-liberal Democrat, Sen. Patty Murray, who played the strongest role in acting on the Seattle Times investigation and who pushed for the investigation into the PTSD diagnoses at Madigan.
The practice of trying to control or limit diagnoses for PTSD sounds exactly like what conservative Republicans enthusiastically applaud -- limiting "wasteful public spending" and "clamping down on cushy government benefits". It's no different than a corporation doing its best to legally limit payouts to injured workers via workers compensation.
This really isn’t a Democrat or Republican issue Seattle-Sunset; this is SOP for the DOD. They would much rather fund their latest sure to fail techno-booby than to take care of the people who gave almost, but not quite all in the service to their country.
Yes, it is a Democrat vs Republican issue. Remember that 47% that Romney said were sponging off the rest of the tax payers, they included injured veterans.
You got it. They were oh so happy when they were going to get all those new funds to rebuild the VA hospital systems for PTSD. They started diagnosing everyone with it until the $$$ slowed. Now they are regrouping Veterans (a group = the lower the less you have to pay. The higher = the more co pays and if you are on disability or Social Security once they make the decision you owe them they are just like the IRS they take the money from your check.) There's a lot more going on but who am I to tell. I am leaving the VA hospital. I wanted it so that if I decided to move I wouldn't have to go postal redoing all my testing etc. But I can't even have that pleasure after a year with them in one place. I believe the new Secretary of Defense will give them a kick in the butt to stop the bull. That's right! KBB BABY!!!
Both sides do it, just because your a lefty I know its easy to say your side doesnt do that, but they do. The dems are just as bad and in alot of cases worse to our troops then the right.
So sick of the political generalizations. Republicans this...Democrats that... Enough already! It's all bogus campaign lies & distortions. The subject is PTSD, a very real diagnosis, not lightly reached. Do any of you know what you're talking about? You think mental health therapists make this stuff up? Ever heard of DSM-IV? Strict diagnostic codes required. It's illegal to change these records after the fact!!
The army will not release the report. They need more time to pull a Pat Tillman type coverup on the public without screwing it up this time.
This PTSD is also a bunch of B.S. I am a Vietnam Vet and I know and have met a lot of other Vietnam Vets. Yet I honestly have never personally known any Vietnam Vet claming to suffer from PTSD in all these years.
So, why are all these wussys coming out of the woodwork now claiming to have PTSD? The vast majority just want an easy handout, free money without having to earn an honest living. Pure and simply. I know several Iraq and Afganistan veterans on disability that seem to be as normal as anyone else.
OKWhatNow, the Army cant get the diagnosis right. They cant get the management right. I know. I was one making diagnosis for troops. I could write a book. Who listens?
You sir, seem to have served in the support service area. My husband was a Vietnam Vet. River Rat. Job was listed as "mechanic". In reality, he manned the gun, as they delivered fuel to the outposts. Viet Cong loved to target them. It was routine to be under heavy fire all the time. He witnessed many of his shipmates killed. I know of many that were in the combat area that suffer from PTSD.... They just don't get treatment, due to how they were treated. Hubby sought treatment for severe "headaches" when he returned. He was told it was "all in his head", and to "man up, get on with it". He went forward to live with it for 41 years. He lived primarily in isolation. He did work. He did not go to public events. Fireworks were a mere dream for him to see. Sudden noise would find him on the ground. Nights were hell. The nightmares came all too frequently. I convinced him to try again about 2 years ago. We waited nearly two years to be seen by the VA. The clinician that saw him said it was one of the worse cases of untreated PTSD he had ever seen. Waited 4 more months to get a decision from the VA on the results of the screening. 50%. He died less than one month after the results were returned, and before an appeal could be done. Slapped in the face by the Army twice in his life. Sad. I had joked around that they were stalling, hoping he would die first. I was not far from wrong.
OKWhatNow, you know not of what you speak, and looking normal says nothing about what they feel inside. I've met Vietnam Vets with PTSD, where have you been, sir? It is a disgrace that you're so angry and dishonoring those that need help and served bravely.
-Paul Hester
Qwen, I'm listening.
There is a group called "Battling Bare", spouses involved with returning vets suffering from PTSD, great cause.
Posters, don't whine about the government, they will never take care of the troops due to the political aspects of it all. It has always been up to the American Public to thank the troops and take care of them.
Get involved, meet and greet returning troops....It really is up to us.
Ok, As the wife/mother/sister/daughter of Military I have to agree with you.
While I agree that there are some sufferers of PTSD it seems to be the "disease" of the month. Something to excuse post deployment beavior on.
Just like the rise in Autism and ADD and such. They would rather label it & drug it, rather than find out what the real problem is.
To Kat Kerr Davis. Please be advised that your husbands claim for PTSD did NOT DIE WITH HIM. You can still continue to seek any back pay and benefits he was entitled to. Find a good service officer and continue to seek his benefits. Good luck.
OKwhatnow-
My father claims to be a Vietnam vet as well, but he was stationed in Okinawa, never stepped foot in Vietnam. You must have served with him.
Okwhatnow-
Maybe you're just such a tough guy? It's estimated that a third of returning combat vets suffer from PTSD, whether acute and temporary or chronic.
Yeah, because a vet with a 30% rating for PTSD will get almost $5,000 per year. Livin' large!
They're called invisible wounds for a reason.
You sound like a bitter, old man rather than a brother-in-arms.
To Kat Kerr Davis, I am so sorry for your loss. Your story is practically a mirror-image of my husband. My husband was a machine gunner for the USMC in Viet Nam - Da Nang, Khe Sahn, etc. He held it together for over 40 years too. He retired a few years ago and it all let loose. A counselor he spoke to, said he has been seeing more and more just like him. They were workaholics as a coping mechanism. When they no longer had their work to focus on, it became harder to keep the lid nailed down on Viet Nam. My husband too, was diagnosed with severe PTSD. The VA gave him 10%. 10%!! Once, I started reading more about PTSD, I realized what had been wrong with him for over 40 years, it all fell into place. The irritability, the social problems -he hates big groups, and does not make friends easily - the drinking, I could go on, but too many tears.
I too, said they were waiting for him to die, the same with Agent Orange. All 3 of our children have missing teeth, the two oldest have learning problems, one has Asperger's and all have some form of ADHD.
To Okwhatnow -- SHUT YOUR UGLY MOUTH! You have NO idea! If you indeed are a Viet Nam combat vet (not Viet Nam era) you should be ashamed!
To AtlasWill Shrug-thank you!
OKwhat now,
How many tours in 'Nam did you do? I would venture to guess you did one 13-month tour, right?
There are soldiers who have done three 15-month tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and some have even done more.
Do you think it is possible, just possible, that these men may have Psychological issues that you can't even relate to? Most of them have done at least three times the amount of time in a war zone than you did in 'Nam.
Now this is nasty. Veterans of war, non combat, direct support, whatever, arguing when it should be mourning, praying, and talking about it. Then there are the the guys who never got to wear the uniform anywhere, anytime who have the balls to even get nervy with anyone who either served or was close to one who served. People, when one of us dies a piece of all of us dies. If it could be avoided then by all means that move should be taken or we will again embarrass our country with a draft and people leaving the country to avoid serving. And it doesn't matter which war you served. How many months . In combat or not. When one enlists or shows up he or she lays their lives into the hands of the DIs & TIs of the different branches of the Military. If you are ordered to go to Russia, China, Iran, Syria, anywhere... You must go. If you are killed or wounded in any way it doesn't matter if you were even fragged, you were exposed to it. Do you know that during the height of Vietnam the Military was the only organization that refused to recognize addiction as a disease. With the numbers pushed through Nam and the availability of Opium it would have cost them a fortune for care. Sound familiar. PTSD, Addiction, Concussions, etc etc etc.
Where the hell do you live? Mars? I work with veterans from all eras. Currently the largest group I work with who suffer PTSD are Vietnam Veterans. When a veteran retires he or she has time on this or her hands to reflect on life's events. Just because they sucked it up for 40 years doesn't mean it's not there.
I wonder if OKWhatnow might have been one of the "great American Patriots" that gleefully swift boated a fellow veteran for political motives.
OKWHATNOW, the way you speak really tells me that you really did served in Vietnam, as a COOK that is why you never had a bad experience or you were a bit*h daddy.
OKWhatNow
I lost two friends to suicide within a year of each other almost 25 years ago. Both were combat vets from Vietnam. One was getting treatment for PTSD and the other refused to acknowledge anything was wrong and would not seek help. PTSD is real and it is a debiltating disorder. Differant people cope with it differantly. Your statement that you have never know a Vietnam veteran who had PTSD is about the dumbest statement I have heard here today. I think you are full of crap.
I am a 100% permanently and totally disabled veteran. I am
being denied access to the level of ongoing care I need for my severe spinal
injuries by the Chief of Staff at the VA Hospital in Manchester, NH. I need 3
chiropractic adjustments per week and 3 acupuncture treatments per week to
manage my chronic severe pain. I refuse to take narcotics because I took them
for 9 years and had to get off of them because they were killing me. I already
pay for 1 deep tissue massage per week out of pocket to the tune of $450 a
month because the VA will not pay for that. For the past 4 years I have been
fighting for access to the care I need to control my pain but the Manchester,
NH VA Hospital Chief of Staff Dr. Breuder who has final approval authority for
funding of my care through the Fee Basis Services program which allows me to go
to the private sector for this care is once again denying me access by denying
the consult by my VA Pain Management doctor. I have tried narcotics, spinal
epidural shots directly into my spinal column, TENS units which is in essence
electrical shock therapy, traction in the PT department which caused me to
suffer with severe migraines to the point of vomiting non-stop for 10 days and
numerous other modalities of treatments that were simply ineffective. My spine
was injured while serving at a Research and Development command and I was a
human test subject helping the Navy test a new suit to defend from chemical or
biological attack. I rode in the same centrifuge the Gemini and Apollo
astronauts rode in and regularly exceeded 6 to 7 G (gravity) forces. My
personal best was 9.2 G's before passing out, aka G-locking. I also rode on the
ejection tower simulator which simulates the forces of ejecting from a jet
airplane minus the wind blast. It is worse than an actual ejection because the
150 foot tall tower does not allow you to come down in a parachute. You leave
the ground at similar speeds of an actual ejection then suddenly stop in only
150 feet. It's extremely violent. My spine is severely damaged and diseased
with degenerative disk and joint disease and is too fragile for surgery and I
have been told by 2 neurosurgeons if I had surgery it would probably only make
things worse so that is not an option. the only thing that works for me is 3
chiropractic treatments and 3 acupuncture treatments per week. Dr Breuder
instituted a local standard operating procedure (SOP) for his VA hospital, the
only VA hsopital in New Hampshire by the way, which in effect has stripped
access to ongoing chiropractic care and acupuncture care from all veterans in
New Hampshire and his SOP is illegal. He referenced VA Directive 2009-059 as
his sole authority for saying in his SOP, and I quote, "The Chiropractic
treatment program is designed to be a short term treatment program for
neuro-musculoskeletal problems. Ongoing maintenance chiropractic care will not
be approved. The VA Clinician should educate the veteran on these restrictions.
Chiropractic care will not be provided for the sole purpose of "disease
prevention, health promotion or quality of life enhancement." Excuse me
but what is the purpose of the VA medical system if it isn't those 3 things?
When I looked up VA Directive 2009-059 on the Internet and researched the
public laws listed in that directive nowhere does it say chiropractic care was
not intended to be used in an ongoing manner. In fact the VA Directive for Fee Basis
Services states if my VA doctor writes a consult for care and that service is
not provided in any VA hospital within reasonable driving distance then the VA
must pay for it via the private sector. And here’s the kicker folks, back when
I tried traction and it caused me to suffer a horrible migraine is when Dr.
Breuder initiated his illegal SOP. His SOP cut all NH veterans off from care
their doctors prescribed therefore the PT department saw a burst of veterans
for several months being pushed through their doors. One of the PT nurses I was
working with at the time actually wrote in my medical record and I quote,
"It is my opinion and the opinion of many of my co-workers that the reason
for the institution of the SOP restricting veteran's access to ongoing
chiropractic care is solely for budgetary concerns." Later I am sure
without realizing it Dr. Breuder electronically signed off on that statement
which means technically and legally he is agreeing with what was written in my
record. The fact that Dr. Breuder referenced a VA directive that also
references public laws and he claims this directive gave him authority to
restrict access to chiropractic care when it says the exact opposite means he
lied and he knowingly lied and did so in the interest of his hospital budget. I
wonder if there is a way to acquire a PTSD diagnosis from all the mental
anguish and physical pain and suffering this man has caused me. I am living a
nightmare of pain and suffering because Dr. Breuder is more interested in
balancing his hospital's budget on my already broken back. If there are any
lawyers out there who truly cares and wants to help me I would be deeply
grateful. My number is 603.686.3635 if anyone cares enough and wants to help me fight this guy. Keep in mind you won't just be helping me, you will be helping every veteran in New Hampshire who needs ongoing chiropractic care. By the way I served honorably for 22 years on the extreme front lines of the
Cold War as a P3 Flight Engineer. In fact I was already a qualified flight engineer
on the P3 Orion at only 21 years old and flew for over 20 years doing that. I also have 2 medals for heroism. One of the medals is the Navy and Marine Corp Medal for Heroism and is ranked one
level higher than the Bronze Star. I deserve far better than this.
woww- i think you need a lawyer. may god have mercy on you
It seems to me that the same political faction that can't wait to send young people off to some God-forsaken land to fight for their lives in a war in which that political faction might make a substantial profit from. Have you noticed that most of these "wars" are in places that produce lots of drugs? Then when these young soldiers with old faces come home they are shunned by future employers for fear that these heroes might "go off" at any time. What the he!! do they expect after training these young people to take lives in battle and then not want them to be able to try to return to a "normal" job and the American way of life. We were trained by the very best to do the very worst and we haven't forgotten a damm thing !
As the Hulk said: "You won't like me when I get angry." The chicken-chit chicken hawks want our young people to defend them and their interests and then just disappear. Similar to their health plan: "Die Soon". After making some very large sacrifices, these heroes are expected to live under bridges and make do with next to nothing. Typical conservative gratitude. Sad that we fought for all Americans, and half of the population doesn't want to help those that keep America safe.
Hire Vets, we know how to get things done ! !
Wolfhound....27th Inf, right
One might think that the Army would do everything possible to protect its soldiers--current and retired--but it appears that while everything might be fine when soldiers are on active duty in a war zone, it changes when they return home, at which time they essentially become personae non gratis, which is disturbing, but the most disturbing aspect of this schizophrenic dual standard is that it originates within the Army, itself, where soldiers become the "at home" enemy of the Army . . .
In other words, when the battle is raging, the attitude of the Army is "be all you can be", but when the battle is over and soldiers are transitioning to civilian life the attitude of the Army is to "prevent you from getting what you earned and deserve for performing your duty honorably" . . .
And this dual standard is antithetical to the perspectives of the American people, which makes it all the more strange and bizarre . . .
The American people have no problem at all with our returning and retired soldiers getting the best possible benefits, healthcare, and retirement pay, so it is not something that is done to make the American people happy--quite the contrary . . .
Our soldiers and all our military personnel deserve the best, and when the Army devises schemes to deny soldiers the best, the Army is wrong and is doing something that the Army should not be doing, really . . .
Really! :-o
Tell that to the politicians who keep cutting the budgets for medical care...
Want to provide an example? ...no? ...I thought not. Polititions are not cutting the budgets for medical care; in fact, they have consisitantly increased it, though they started about 5 years late. Part of the problem is numbers. Consider due to improvements in field medicine, we save soldiers now who are so badly wounded they would never have survived in previous conflicts. Another part is that even though Congress has been increasing the funding...it hasn't kept up with the patient load.
Don't get me wrong...I expect it will happen. I originally left the service in 1973 so I know how bad the VA can get...it just hasn't gotten there yet, by a long shot.
From what I read in the above comments, I agree with all of you. The government definitely doesn't want to pay for returning vets issues caused by their military service. I went through the process and it's not efficient or fair. At every turn they will undermine you and make you feel like you have nothing and hope you quit your request for help. Fortunately, I had a lot of documentation and military officers and chaplain come forward to help prove my case. Even after all that they still sent me to a "VA" doctor who talked with me for exactly five minutes and determined I was not eligible, implying things that would make anyone angry for his "predetermined" diagnosis. Eventually with the help of a couple of VA compensation employees and the "American Legion" representative, I was given my deserved medical and compensation.
I recommend to all new and older vets dealing with the policies stated in this article to have a veteran support group that goes to bat for you, i.e "The American Legion", there are others but please ask for one at your regional office. I hope I have helped in some small way for all of your being treated like "crap" to put it lightly.
I will say once I was in the "system" and receiving care, I have no complaints and see many VA employees that I believe really care about vets.
Frankly, I think the people and corporations that made billions and billions off of our wars, should pay for all returning vet's injuries and compensation.
-Paul Hester
They are happy to train you on how to go to war.... what they miss out on... is training you on how to go home.... the suicide rate proves that.... shameful...
Agreed! I've never understood why they have pre-combat bootcamp, but not some sort of training to return to civilian life. I can't even imagine that transition.
Huge thanks to the vets on this board. May our government pull their heads out of their collective asses and treat you as you deserve to be treated.
I served in Vietnam from 69 to 70 and if that wasn't bad enough coming home was something I will never forget. I'm not talking about the way a lot of brave men & women were treated by the public, I'm talking about the psychological effects that were not addressed to us. A good number of us didn't even know what PTSD was or had ever heard of it. In my case, I spent close to 40 years never knowing why I was the way I was, anger issues, self medicating with alcohol, nightmares, not wanting to participate in social events, etc. I finally had a melt down and darn near committed suicide and that's when my wife of 37 years (how she put up with me I'll never know or understand) dragged me kicking and screaming down to the VA. Turns out it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Is the VA system perfect? Heck no, but what Government run program is. My experience has been very positive and I now am living a life that is somewhat normal, or least a heck of a lot better than it was before. Had we been told that pyschological issues were going to be an issue with a lot of us, maybe a lot of us could have gotten the help we needed a lot sooner and maybe there would be a lot more Vets here today living a good productive life.
Jim D-283583,
Seeing you served in Vietnam at a time frame when I was a brat in middle school. Let me tell you something I am pretty sure you have not heard very often if ever.
Thank you for your service in a place that you were not welcomed less alone thanked for here or there. I grew up around a guy who took a bullet in Vietnam just above his knee in his right leg. When he came back to the area it was apparent to all of us this was not the same man who went to southeast Asia for his high school trip. We won't dwell but the poor bastard was a nut when he came back and no one could understand or knew of his demons as to why.
You may well be that young man of then. So again thank you for serving in a place none of us younger guys wanted to have to deal with and glad you got the support you did at home and in the V.A.
Chances are your service keep my azz from having to go to Nam along with the elimination of the draft.
Thank you for your service Sir.
As well as to all the men and women who served and or serving. Thank you for service.
D Woody, #5
First off to you and all the other veterans.
Thank you each and everyone for the years of service you have given, allowing the rest of us to enjoy the freedoms we do.
I am sorry to hear about your ongoing denial of medical services from the V.A. that would help in the reducing of your pains, but not surprised by these denials. A old friend of mine told me of the same stories that you have told us here dealing with the pains he deals with from three different plane wrecks he was involved with during his service in the army. One thing that helped him in his pain management was the use of cannabis both smoked and eaten to help him with his back pain. Here in Florida there is no medical cannabis program yet, so he is forced to get his from friends of friends.
I know I can not bring much to the table to help you but thought this might be helpful to you. I wish you well with your ongoing battles in this ongoing war on veterans and hope you come out on top.
Keep up the good fight and good luck.
Again, to all who have served. Thank you.
TA
Could it be that the US Military is being used again as a Lab rats or guinea pigs for the greater good social experment lab coat crowd,you know the same people that have always hung around and toyed with the brave Americans who wish to serve their counrty but instead get shot full of drugs or have their minds ruined in less than legal experiments.
Each war since WWII has had our soilders have been messed with and this current war seems to be no different.
I wonder what the lab coat crowd is doing with the free loaders that make up the 47%?
It's all about the $$$$ they could offer these guys medical treatment free for a lifetime but the only cure for the alleged PTSD Please Take Some Disability is the CASH I call BS if the VA wasn't overwhelmed with all These Fraudulent Claims then maybe the truly deserving would get theirs.
ranknfile-I would gladly give up the astronomical sum of $129 a month my husband receives for his PTSD for a husband who could live pain free emotionally and physically. I'm sure he'd agree. If it were possible to make it all go away and he had a choice between a billion dollars or erasing the pain - he would not take the cash!
Sometimes, it is better to just keep your ugly mouth shut than to make such nasty statements.
I'm going to get collapsed, possibly suspended, for this, but I don't care:
ranknfile, you are a first class piece of @!$%#. I would love to see you deal with what combat vets have to deal with. I doubt you would last more than one day. STFU and be greatful that there are people out there willing to go to the front line to protect your freedom to spout that kind of bull@!$%#. @!$%# you very much and have a nice day. Dick.
jdp in pdx,
Very well said.
Thanks, Traffic. I try not to be insulting on these boards, but that guy got my blood boiling.
The Air Force does the same thing.My son was in Iraq and went though two bomb blast.He has no memory of his childhood. He suffer with sleep disorders, mood swing,goes crazy around loud noise and cannot remember what he did the day before.I told him he should go for TBI but the Air Force told him that he does not qualify because he was not knock unconscious.The Army does with out being unconscious.I'm a vet myself and I gave this country a high motivated and a intelligent young man and they gave me back a man that has a hard time just surviving another day.We as a country should be ashamed at how we treat these heroes.What wrong with our military and the government that they serve?
We can only hope and pray that those responsible for blocking or covering up the PTSD diagnoses for those that are suffering will be the targets of these soldiers actions when and if they go off the deep end instead of family and innocents. I can imagine the rage and frustration they will experience due to the lack of help they would otherwise be entitled to receive if a proper diagnosis could have been given.
Not likely with the secrecy that the Army insists on with its report.
its ok to give money to illegals ( 338 billion) and welfare slugs, but not Veterans. our country's politicans suck
PTSD is caused by the fear of losing one's own life or the life of a loved one. It has been well understood well before most posters were born. It is a very real condition and for any psychiatrist who would try to avoid the diagnosis because of some orders from above should lose his or her medical license. It is criminal behavior to intentionally deny a patient a correct diagnosis. Any higher up should be court marshaled. In the 21st century this sort of mischief should not be happening.
When I went to the Army Hospital after Desert Storm because of nightmares, high blood pressure and other stuff they told me it was NOT the war but my marrige..lol @!$%#s.. after 1 year and a breakbown during a training exersice I was given an early retirement. Lum sum. Taxed at 20%. Then the VA took 2 years to say it was PTSD. I then had to pay back the lum sum I got. It was 4 years before I saw a dime from the goverment. I lost my house, my marrige, my kids. Had to filed for bankrupcy and almost ended it all. I know just what these guys are going thru.
Good for the Army, they're protecting that national security information from the muslim extremist terrorists, Iran and North Korea. Who knows what the enemy would do with that report?
It's a recognized fact of human behavior: You get more of what you reward. Higher disability compensation for post traumatic stress? Surprise, we have more and more of it. Plus we have a well-organized culture of whiner-cultivation that produces, guess what, whiners. Everybody's in touch with their feelings. Everybody wants their share of sympathy. To paraphrase Captain Willard, we make ourselves weaker and weaker while Charlie crouches in the jungle, getting stronger.
It's so easy for you to sit behind your computer and say those things. You have no clue how horrific war is, to have someone blown to bits before your eyes, blood , intestines, body parts all around you. It's not pretty and until you experience it, you are in no position to judge. PTSD is not a new development, it's been around since the advent of war, we have made advances in diagnosing it, it is a real problem and for you to dismiss it as whining is disgraceful and insulting.
Transparent.
People really can't see the forest for the trees! All volunteer military is a joke in this economy. Young people can't get a decent job, or afford to go to college after high school. And too many can't get a decent job after college. Where else are they going to go if they want to get out on their own, or continue their education?
And those nearing the end of their enlistment can't find any jobs in the private sector. So they have a choice to either stay in (if they can), or go live with their parents, and go on unemployment.
At some point in their military careers they've got to get tired of being shot at, killing, watching their friends maimed, and killed. But when they have nowhere else to go, that's STRESS!
That's why we love dead heroes!
They are so much cheaper to maintain after their usefulness is gone.
Sad and reprehensible, but true :(
All they can focus on is gun control but don't want anything to do with helping those who put their lives on the line
I would like to see a study done that can eventually make up a test to see who can handle the stresses of combat. A test administered before our young men and women are put in the high stress situations that cause these disorders.
There has got to be a reason why some people can handle the pressure of combat and some people cannot. That reason should be able to be found.
I do not think that handling combat is the issue. Some people are just more able to set bad things aside, others are more sensitive. Every combat vet most likely has PTSD to some extent.
I would think that those not adversely affected by combat in any way are probably the true crazies. Psychotics, sociopaths, etc have no problem taking lives or watching fellow military personnel die.
Dig up Audie Murphy and ask him that question also citizen-XX he had PTSD. There is only so much any one person can take before they are changed forever.
Audie was the most decorated American soldier of WWII and he would love that answer too.
And then Audie Murphy put a .45 in his mouth and ended it all . . .
Must have been one hell of a gun, Ed, if it crashed the plane he was in and killed five other people as well.
Either things have changed drastically in the last ten years or so, or someone is smoking crack (never served a day). Last I checked, the military and/or VA does NOT give back pay. Then again, maybe the "vietnam vets" ended up getting a better deal than servicemen and women who left the service in the last decade ( who went through the proper channels of Tarp). That being said, I urge caution listening to this hopey changey garbage. Sure, you might "whine" your way from 10% to 50%...but when you push for the 100% rehabilitation pay (yes, people like this always push for surgeries that are either not needed or they scam the doctor into believing that something completely undocumented in military records is suddenly service connected) the VA is wise to you. You washed out of life. But you served. You couldn't retire from the military...perhaps you went out "other than honorable" until you bought the right senator the right "lemonade" drink...but oh, you served, darn it! The VA doesn't buy it either. If you were really that screwed up from military service, they would have retired you...not retroactively, but upon seperation. Hasn't anyone read the news lately? I read something about how the 100% rehab pay program has been abused, and how scam vets have indebted the system into the billions...not that it really matters.
However, I am one of those who was retired, literally retired, from the military. I hear the stories. Back when I still had teeth at 39, the VA wouldn't even shoehorn me in with something covered under GERD to help with my rotting teeth. But oh, I hear that day in and day out, non rated "vets" receive free dental from the exact same crooks...I can think of reasons why but it wouldn't be very nice of me to say.
There are scams, especially in the VA. Those who deserve more don't get it. Meanwhile, there are hundreds of cases where individuals, originally booted dishonorably, were given a full military burial. I guess it really is...who you know...even in the federally funded VA.
At least if the crooks in the VA ever screw with me, I can always fall back on the 50% military retirement (which is protected by The Jones Act).