I was thinking that maybe she did have a DNR and that is why it was not performed? According to this article, the family isn't upset so there must be more to the story.

You'll never catch a doctor doing this on the side of the road. Unless he's ready to be sued. Sorry to say, but it's true.

G'morninn' Okee...

Mary,

I read somewhere that a little boy was struck by a car. A good Samaritan woman (nurse) stopped her car and performed CPR saving the kids life. The kid tried to sue the nurse that saved his life saying she broke a couple of his ribs (yeah, really).

The judge threw it out of court.

Unfortunately, "yes"... There are people out there that will do this.

Domewars

Seriously... FIRE the nurse. Unless the patient has a DO not resuscitation policy this woman was totally out of line.

Guess you haven't been reading the news lately. People who go against company policy can and will get fired. Remember the life guard the went past his designated area to save someone from drowning and got fired for doing so? If you want people to go above and beyond to save lives, then make laws to prevent them from being fired from their jobs for doing it. A woman bartender just recently lost her job for calling the police on a man who was drunk and attempting to drive. Her boss said it was bad for business to call the cops as customers will go elsewhere.

So no, I do not think she should be fired for following company policy.

If the policy is to NOT provide assistance, why call 911??

GM OkeeBoy, CD and Mary. Good call Mary!

I believe if the nurse attempted CPR, she would have lost her job for going against company policy, as stated in the article

The retirement facility released a statement extending its condolences to the family and said its "practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives.''

I am not saying I agree with it but the nurse has to follow procedure and the company was ensuring that it could not be placed in a lawsuit. That is a tough call because as a Divemaster, I have to be CPR certified and am required to perform it, if necessary.

The nurse said "company policy" was DNR. Since when can a company decide to let someone die? How can you stand there and watch someone die and refuse to help them. Get rid of her and get the CEO by the neck and shake the stuffing out of him/her. If they have a DNR and they are DEAD (no pulse, no respiration), so be it. If they are breathing or have a heartbeat, they are NOT dead. DNR does not mean do not bring out of an unconscious state.

sigh....remember when common sense use to kick in instead of policy's......

gm mary,cd,jack,okee,

all states have the GOOD SAMARITAN law, immunity from any liability for rendering any reasonable assistance; the nurse did not say there was a dnr with this patient, only not company policy; since a nursing home is considered a medical provider; the nursing home and nurse are liable under medical malpractice; the state has the right to revoke the license of the nursing home for their policy which is against all state laws requiring nursing homes to have life saving procedures in place (gee another frivolouslawsuit). of course do to her age and infirmity, it will be hard for the family to find a attorney to take on the insurance company and nursing home, since the recovery may not even cover the costs of the lawsuit.

saxon unfortunantly the good samaritan law only pertains to untrained people trying to help. a nurse, firefighter, emt, police officer is not protected by it.

GM Scooter

This seems like one of the toughest calls to make - damned if you and damned if you don't. This has no "what ifs...." to work arouns and CD said it well with:

Catch 22

DNR means DO NOT RESUSCITATE.

We don't have the complete story (not a surprise on MSN). If she had a DNR, then the nurse was following the correct procedures. If not, she will be stripped of her license and wont be a nurse. Company policy or not.

GM Tramp. I was a first responder till I found out how bad I could get screwed.. All I wanted to do was help. The system is f--ked. But it is what it is and that's all that there is.

Thank GOODNESS we have experts such as Brenda among us!! Since there is a woeful lack of detailed information in this article, what I am wondering about, dear Brenda, is if company policy is to NOT provide assistance until medical help arrives, and the 911 dispatcher is clearly letting the nurse know that CPR is necessary in this situation, is it a reasonable policy? Why should a nurse be put in the position of choosing between her job and the welfare of a patient in her care?

There isn't enough information in the article to say, leading to questions such as mine (and many others), and throwing the quality of the facility & the care of its patients into doubt.

Feel free to call me stupid again--it apparently makes you feel better.

So the hospital has a blanket DNR policy to protect their institution from being sued when they perform CPR. Blame society and the lawsuits we allow for that, not this nursing home or its staff.

I just hope everyone knows this is this nursing home's policy before they take up residency there.

It sounds like the same policy Congress has when dealing with the health of our country.

The individual above who said that CPR would not have helped is absolutely correct. CPR is of near ZERO value in this situation (individual over 70 who suffers sudden heart failure). Unfortunately, as a former Paramedic, I can tell you that we generally view CPR as a great way of preventing bystanders from panicking, and not much else. There are VERY few situations I ever encountered in my professional career where CPR improved the outcome- in fact, I can think of exactly ONE, where CPR was done for all of 30 seconds before a bystander found the AED. The nursing home has this policy for this very reason- CPR has nearly zero benefit to that patient population, and simply opens them up for a hit should the family decide to sue.

As cold as it may sound, the nurse did the right thing- for herself and her employer, and at the end of the day her failure to perform CPR likely had nothing to do with the final outcome.

gm to all the usual suspects,

I am required by my job to stay certified in CPR and first aid. On thing they don't tell you in the classes is to be aware of what Good Samaritan laws do (or do not) exist in your state. Every medical professional should be aware of what liability they incur if they render aid. It varies by state.

Regardless of the Nursing Home's policy, the nurse would have been legally protected under the Good Samaritan Law.

Her failure to act was unconscionable.

ERIC 1964 : good Samaritan law also applies to any and all medical personnel.

The real problem here isn't the nurse - it's the policy of the nursing home (if indeed this is the case.)

The nurse didn't want to lose her job. She surely would have been fired the next day for breaking policy.

Anyone know FOR A FACT if 'good samaritan' laws exist in this state and if her job would have been protected?

The threat of being sued for helping is real, folks.

I just checked: California Law does have a provision in their Good Samaritan Act that allows professionals to be covered AS LONG AS there was no gross negligible act involved. Lack of doing something will not qualify as long as it is policy (albeit a lousy one) for inaction.

She called 911 because it was her employers policy!

Many of you don't work in the geriatric field of medicine and have no idea about what you are even talking about!

saxon - read California's good samaritan law (California Health and Safety Code Section 1799.102) it does NOT protect medical personnel. They are specifically exempt from the law in section a.

gm mary,cd,jack,okee, Scooter, DB,

brenda is correct in what she is telling you people. My daughter is a nurse who has worked her entire career in nursing homes. I couldn't begin to tell you the insane and bizarre rules and policies the employees in these places must follow.

And CPR on anyone as old and fragile as this woman would have resulted in broken ribs from the chest compressions at the least, and possilby permanent damage to the heart at the most.

When the rules are "do not attempt CPR" you DO NOT ATTEMPT CPR.

Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received.

Then why the article? It is obvious that common sense has COMPLETELY gone out the door. I mean THINK ABOUT IT!!!

It is the POLICY NOT TO REVIVE!!
Don't you think the deceased and family KNEW THAT BEFORE moving in?

THE DAUGHTER IS A NURSE and is FINE with how her mother was treated!!
The only people hurt by this families CHOICE is a 911 operator and butt hurt America.

If you people on the Vine are a direct reflection of society then we are screwed.

Actually, despite IF there was a DNR order on file, CPR is not considered to be "extraordinary measures". As opposed to say heart defibrulation, breathing machines etc. And in all 50 states you will find laws on the books stating that a person with medical training "on scene" MUST give aid when this type of thing occurs. And withholding such aid is Criminal Negligence. This nursing facility can and SHOULD be held accountable. Because the person on the phone did not state that there was a DNR, she simply said it was against the nurshing facility's "policy" to do CPR and refused to find someone who would. And when you think about it so what if CPR would have caused broken ribs? Don't you think that this woman would've been glad to be alive? Albeit with bumps, bruises etc?

I hope that the family, when they've had time to think about it, DOES sue. The publicity generated might prevent this type of inhumane treatment in the future.

A no CPR facility is a NO CPR facility. It's in the policy. The Customer and the estate gaurdian had to sign for it to be left in that care and thats life or in this instance, death, but isn't death for those not affraid actually another chance at Life?

It's only their job to call authorities to prevent the notion that a crime may have been commited and they aren't coming to rescue the victim if they are dead. They are coming to pronounce them as being dead because that's what those people that lived there wanted.

Also, CPR cannot be performed without breaking the ribcage, ask your professionals what has to give to make the heart pumpable. Or, if you've ever needed CPR you already know and, it really really hurts like heIl.

Never mind good Samaritan laws, DNRs, or what seems right or wrong. If you put your family member (or yourself) in one of these facilities, you sign a lot of contracts, all of which you should read, and all of which state the policies, so that you know what you can expect in the event something like this happens. This is really a non-story being sensationalized to make this woman seem like a bad person for not acting, but there's a whole lot of contract there backing up her actions, and the fact that the family isn't upset confirms that. The dispatcher is incensed because she wasn't in the loop on that contract signed by all of those people involved on the other end of the phone line and should get over it. THE ONLY lawsuit that will come of this is the dispatcher being sued for slander for dragging this woman's name through the mud, making her look like some evil person who just stood by and watched, causing her distress as she tries to explain again and again to friends and family and neighbors and even strangers (like you and me) that literally she was doing her job and abiding by the contract signed by the family and in all likelihood the woman who died.

CPR on an elderly person does much damage, but when performed immediately it does save lives. Perhaps this is a compromise the home follows considering the quality of life that would follow. I would not want to be the one making that choice.

Although this article doesn't give the entire story, this facilities procedures are not to resuscitate. More than likely a person has to sign a DNR before even moving. Seems the daughter sides with the facility, so that indicates to me there is far more to this story but as always the news media wants to glorify the story for increase viewership.

we generally view CPR as a great way of preventing bystanders from panicking, and not much else.

Alex,

I've no idea what your personal experience is, but I've seen CPR performed exactly twice in my life, and it worked both times.

The first was a neighbor's toddler who fell head first into a bucket of water. His father had gone into the house to answer the phone, and didn't find the child until he was blue (and not breathing). I watched as he performed CPR, and saw the child literally turn pink again after a huge shudder and gasp. He lived.

The second was a man who had a heart attack while driving his car. My daughter saw him crash into a pole, pulled him out, and performed CPR on him for about 12 minutes until the EMTs arrived. He also lived.

And for those of you who say this was an 'old' woman and should be 'allowed to die', I'd add this: the woman was not in assisted living, which means she was ambulatory and able to care for herself and her home. That doesn't sound 'old' to me. My own grandfather lived to be 98, and my aunt passed last year at 94 - bright and active until the last month of her life.

Eighty seven isn't 'old' for everyone.

My my...the last time I seen this many "medical professionals" in one place was at a training foray in OKC for Masters of Public Health students...now those were some sharp people. Half of you dont know what you're talking about and most of the rest just wish you did.

ctually, despite IF there was a DNR order on file, CPR is not considered to be "extraordinary measures". As opposed to say heart defibrulation, breathing machines etc

this is false. DNR is "do not resuscitate". By any means. You can write in specific allowed measures (shocks but no breathing machine) but chest compressions are the most traumatic of all these interventions and are forbidden if the patient is DNR

However, we do not know if she was DNR or not. It doesn't sound like she was from the article, or it wouldn't be news.

I agree with the above posters who have stated CPR would be futile in her. But, if the family wishes for everything to be done, and the patient has no advance directive or has stated the same, then our hands are tied as far as her care

All I can say is if that had been my mother laying there and this happened, well, as the song goes... better tell the grave digger to dig two.

If she were your mother, maybe she should be in your care. Make a note that the daughter of the deceased has no complaints. You need to think about if you were an employed nurse like the one here, would you have tried CPR on an 87 year old person against the policy of your employer. Depending on the kind of people that you would have to deal with, you might get sued and or lose your job

Also, in addition to the suing culture, the home had an assisted nurse section and an independent section, and this was a case in the latter section.

Im with the nurse. GOOD FOR YOU. For @!$%#s sake people use some common sense. The lady was 87, if she collapsed then it was her time.

physicist,

Ive seen CPR performed hundreds, if not thousands of times. It works very infrequently

Young kids drowning/choking is a notable exception. They usually recover

But instead of using anecdotes, go look it up. Or ill do it for you

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8222679

Not the most recent article, but our care hasn't changed a ton (except for cooling I suppose) Anyway, the info is out there

Creek Dog, I recall a similar story where a good samaritan happened upon a horrific accident. He pulled out the victim in the car just moments before it blew up. The victim in that car was left paralyzed in the legs and sued the good samaritan for rescuing her. It was believed that pulling her from the car is what caused further damage. I don't know whatever became of the lawsuit but I sure as hell hope that a jury favored the good samaritan simply for saving the woman's life that otherwise would have been blown to pieces. I am thinking a judge at the appellate level would have thrown the damn case out since the first judge was stupid enough for allowing the case in the first place.

Would the family have sued the good samaritan for allowing her to die instead? And this is why people turn a blind eye in society!!

Believe me, IllRose, the family is not going to sue. If the old lady's NURSE DAUGHTER is fine with it, doesn't that tell you something? A code is not pretty or respectful, and in this case, totally futile. The patient was pushing 90 and had a DNR or this would not have happened.

There could be more to this story. We had a DNR on my mother when she was in such a facility. We also have one on my husband, who has cancer. If that is the case, the nurse did as requested by the family. Just not enough facts to pass judgement.

It seems cold what this nurse did but she certainly knows more about this case than we do. I suspect the woman had a DNR in place and it was being respected. My mother has one and it covers everything from choking on a piece of food to falling out of bed. She doesn't want to be resuscitated under any circumstance. It's difficult for the family and the nursing staff to abide by her wishes but the truth is she wants to die and has been ready to go for several years.

It's a horrible way to die but we treat our humans less humanely than we do our pets so it's the best she can do since she can't do it herself.

People that age in these kind of homes are there because they are waiting for their day. If anything it is inhumane to bring them back to suffering. You stupid ass holes who think we should prevent people from dieing are @!$%#ed in the head. When you become too old to have any quality of life, have to return to diapers and cant even remember ten minutes ago life is no longer a good thing and keeping these people alive is toture. Just because you cant bear to let go of your loved one doesnt make it ok to repeatedly recussitate them.

To all that are bitching and saying lawsuit are sadly out of touch with what goes on in the healthcare world. Also this Nurse will be sued or be charged when there is a policy in place and going against the policy will clearly get you fired, this is just how and yes more facilitys have this policy to protect their staff. The policy is to call 911 and wait as same with if you fall or collapse in a parking lot of a hospital they have to call 911 and then transport you into the ED, this is for liabilty purposes. Also if you know CPR and perform it on someone that has collapsed due to a MI doing CPR is a judgement call as the Good Samaritan rule has been challenged by many that have received it and sued the the individual performing it. They forget or do not have the understanding that when this is done you will have broken ribs and contusions.

Also as one stated we have DNR/DNI orders on most individuals who reside in these facilitys and that to means no CPR or chest compressions only or only medications.

To : lrose30198 DNR orders are subjective and also these facilitys have Lawyers that are aware and have proofed the policys and would not allow any that are in harm also I have worked in healthcare for over 20yrs and yes I have seen many rehabs that have the same policys to not perform CPR and and call 911.

These policys are to protect the staff against biased lawsuits that many of you use to sue healthcare workers when they save your life!

Also CPR only saves 30% of the those that receive it and who and no ones knows the quality of life that this indvidual had?? We know live in society where all that are not in healthcare and I mean Nurse,Respiratory Therpist or Doctor that believes when one goes to the hospital we are there to fix them or more as know called Sick care not healthcare anymore. Many out there that stated or used lawsuit are the exact individuals who we in healthcare are sick of and ruin our lives when you have no clue to what healthcare is really about.

Did anyone read the last line?

"Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received."

All of us will die, accept it. Her daughter did. Why can't others.

She was 87 years for gods sake. When are we going to realize that spending MORE ON ONE"S LIFE IN THE LAST 3 MONTHS THAN ALL OF THEIR PRECEDING YEARS COMBINED IS BANKRUPTING this country. Enough! death is part of life, no one lives FOREVER!! Religious kooks get over yourself.

All I know is that 30 years ago, when I first got out of high school. I worked in my local hospital's emergency room. Our doctors on staff plus the EMT's and Paramedic's from our county fire department were constantly being sued by people who would otherwise be dead. Regardless, Myself, it's always been my nature to step in and help. Despite the facilties policy in this story. I feel that this nurse was a gutless coward.

A job is just that. A job. As a "skilled" nurse, she would never have had any problems finding a job if she were fired for saving the life of a patient. She is in deeper do do right now, than a job loss, even if the patients "family" (which I can only guess were glad she's no longer a burden to them), said they were "happy" with her "care". What care? That was neglect! Harming or neglecting a patient is a serious offense in the medical field.
There's always a possibility of legal action and the threat of losing your license. But the oath the medical professionals take is to protect and care for patients, and you could also lose your license for not following THAT.
The "Nightingale Pledge"
I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the
presence of this assembly, to pass my life in purity and to practice my
profession faithfully. I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and
mischievous, and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug. I will
do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession, and
will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all
family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling.
With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician in his work and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care.

Unbelievable amounts of people on here are more worried about being sued than the well being of another human being.
I personally hope to heck, if I ever needed someone to help me, it wouldn't be one of you, and each of you better hope the same thing when it becomes YOUR turn. What if it were one of your kids and YOU didn't know CPR, but someone around you did, yet they wouldn't perform it because they could get sued, and your child dies. Just think about it.
Prepare yourselves people...the death panel members have begun to take their seats...

this is a link to a more complete version:

http://www.kget.com/news/local/story/Dramatic-911-tape-reveals-dispatcher-s-fight-to/g2pqsOnJJUGDHFDtxoK04Q.cspx

The patient was NOT DNR but the facility does not offer medical assistance. Interesting...

This a BS half baked story designed to upset people. Great, more upset people in the world.

Steamie2010

All I know is that 30 years ago, when I first got out of high school. I worked in my local hospital's emergency room. Our doctors on staff plus the EMT's and Paramedic's from our county fire department were constantly being sued by people who would otherwise be dead. Regardless, Myself, it's always been my nature to step in and help. Despite the facilties policy in this story. I feel that this nurse was a gutless coward.

That's your opinion, but you were not there. She made the call to follow company policy. I would have done the same. Oh and by the way, if I am 85 and my heart stops or something like that, I hope i don't have you there to bring me back.

This is a good example are for profit companies....they will not do anything for the people they have in their care. There is always someone their waiting to get in so there is no worry about money security.

.

alright RRS in Min & Brenda. settle things in an adult-like fashion. take it to a jello wrestling gig already. meowwwwwwww....

Why when you call a doctors office and their messages says if this is an emergency hang up and dial 911? If I needed a doctor and go to his office of practice to get his help is he going to refuse service if I have a medical condition that would require immediate attention?

I'm not going to waste my breath arguing with a troll...but company policies have been known to get "companies" in a lot of hot water. This one just might be the demise of not only the patient, but the private care facility as well.

They tell you to call 911 because you will get emergency help there. A doctor's office is usually not equipped or staffed for medical emergencies. And, the doctor might be out to lunch or with another patient and not able to get to your call to even know why you are calling.

I did not see anything in the story which broached DNR (Do not rescusitate). My wife is a nurse who previously worked in acute dialysis. She says that many of her patients had it plainly stated that they did not want ANY level of CPR! To do CPR when it was expressly forbidden could cost the nurse her license!

So now remind me, EXACTLY WHO ARE THE DEATH PANELS the republicraps were hollering about after the Affordable Care Act was introduced to the citizens, NO WONDER THE PROFIT AT ALL COST TEABAG REPUBLICRAPS , THAT'S WHO. I believe this woman needed the same care everyone of us needs, compassionate and expert care from whomever is closest to the victim, THIS WAS NOT DONE. The ADMINISTRATORS of this facility should be sued enough that the nurse in question has to become homeless herself. Truly despicable people run this country now, and I don't mean the president, I blame the legislators that allowed businesses to write such rules of employment. The president is nothing compared to the corporate greed we all have to live under, WE SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!

Marty

Have you ever cared for someone who can't wipe their own ass, can't feed themselves, can't remember you and even when they could didn't like you? Probably not.

Nursing homes and assisted care facilities are extremely expensive and can dwindle life savings very quickly. Some of these patients who require over $10k a month for care are barely comatose. It's not all happy grandmas knitting sweaters in most of these places.

We've learned how to extend life but we are extending the worst months and years of it. Most people at the end of life have little memory, are in pain, are confused and scared. It's a horrible way to die.

Creek Dog

I read somewhere that a little boy was struck by a car. A good Samaritan woman (nurse) stopped her car and performed CPR saving the kids life. The kid tried to sue the nurse that saved his life saying she broke a couple of his ribs (yeah, really).

The judge threw it out of court.

The judge threw it out of court after the woman had racked up exactly how much in lawyer and related expenses??

Folks you can blame the lawyers for this one and until we have a loser pay system like every other sensible nation we might as well get used to it. There is ZERO doubt that attempting CPR will result in injury to an 87 year old woman even if it does save their life. As Creek Dog mentions such injury could easily result in litigation under our current system. Even if the case is throw out that won't happen until thousands of dollars of expenses are incurred and of course if it's not thrown out the cost could easily reach the millions.

And for those screaming to fire the nurse...if she was following company policy you can bet her lack of action saved her job for the reasons I just mentioned. It's a @!$%#ed up system that allows good deeds to be punished but until we get some politicians with the balls to stand up to the trial lawyer lobby and push through tort reform we're stuck with it.

As an RN for 40 years I have many times seen headlines in the news saying a "nurse" did this or that bad thing......then come to find out it is a nurse's aide instead. Since this was a residential facility, and the woman was in the independent living part of the facility, I highly doubt this person that called 911 was a licensed nurse (RN, LPN, or LVN)......more likely a nurse assistant, maybe a certified nurse assistant. I happen to have always worked in a hospital where every employee, even administrative people are required to know basic life support....but I have never seen one of them participate in any resuscitative efforts (and usually no doctor either, even in the cases of someone collapsing in the cafeteria).....only "real" nurses and respiratory therapists seem to get involved. This facility in this instance obviously has a policy in place that the people living there understand when they sign their contracts to live there. A regular nursing home would still resuscitate because that is the expectation as a "nursing care" facility - which this place was NOT. My parents live in a retirement apartment facility where they receive one meal per day, some light housekeeping, and some supervised activities, but no one there would be doing any CPR........just calling the ambulance or my parents would be using their "lifeline" button that they wear around their neck to summon help from the local ambulance themselves. And that is just fine with me.

Marty-3578909

So the woman's daughter isn't upset? Could it be that now that Mom is gone, the daughter isn't spending Mom's money on the retirement center and instead the daughter will be heading to an attorney to collect her inheritance? Could be...

Do you automatically assume the worst of everyone??? What a sad existence that must be.

This says it all

Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received.

Just maybe the daughter knew her mother's condition better than a bunch of strangers. No one even knows if she was in cardiac arrest.

It wasn't a nursing home. It was an intendant living facility. Health care was not part of the package although they have other facilities that do.

Ranting

Yes I have cared for a family member nearing life's end, in fact I am doing so right now. BUT being in an assisted living center doesn't mean the old lady was helpless, it means she was able to do many things for herself. Most of these centers provide cleaning services, aid in medication, sometimes meals, but other than that the residents pretty much care for themselves. I'm certainly happy no one I care about is in YOUR care, you might be inconvienced by doing for them what they did for you as a baby.

ConwayTwitter

A job is just that. A job. As a "skilled" nurse, she would never have had any problems finding a job if she were fired for saving the life of a patient.

ROFLMAO.....

Most of our care facilities are owned by entities outside the borders of the US. And no, she would not have an easy time finding another position just because she saved the life of a patient against company policy.

In fact, she would be blacklisted for having done so and deemed a non team player.

Family should sue the facility for wrongful death caused by inhumane policy. I'd like to see that one come before a jury. After they're through with them for several million dollars, I'd bet the policy would change. Condolences, my fat behind.

Unless the woman had a DNR on file the situation is completely unacceptable. I would hope that any families who have relatives at this place should have them removed at once.

Welcome to the future of Obamacare, health professionals letting the elderly die.

Ray....buddy...you have it backwards! It is the Dems who wanted the death panels to save the government money. The evil rich Republicans would make more money if she were alive!

I have gone through the final stages of life with three people I loved very dearly. My parents and a most beloved aunt. Whether or not this nurse would lose her job is moot. Her actions were respectful and loving and showed the ultimate in care. Until you have actually seen your loved ones become less and less of themselves as all of their dignity is lost... you can't understand that death can be a kindness.

wje37fcsm

Family should sue the facility for wrongful death caused by inhumane policy. I'd like to see that one come before a jury.

It would never come anywhere near a jury. The judge would throw it out as soon as he read the CONTRACT that the people signed when the woman moved in. You can't sue someone for something you agreed to which is the exact purpose of this policy. The injuries the woman received during the administration of CPR would certainly be something they could sue over however.

The lawyers are the root cause of this problem not the solution. In fact you could argue that the root of the root of the problem is people like you who start screaming "SUE...SUE...SUE" at the drop of a hat.

I would like to add one more comment. It is not easy to find facilities that are independent living... allowing their guests as much dignity as possible, that will also care for them through the final stages. When the inevitable downward spiral starts it would be very difficult to move the person, causing more disruption and often confusion. They develop relationships with their care givers and to be able to continue with them is a blessing. Facilities that keep patient until death have quite a mixture of patient capabilities.

In refusing the 911 dispatcher's insistence that she perform CPR, the nurse can be heard telling the dispatcher that it was against the retirement facility's policy to perform CPR.

The most likely reason for this policy is a fear of litigation. I suspect this facilities own lawyers advised this policy be put in place to prevent lawsuits. Don't be so quick to judge this nurse. Had she performed CPR and the patient died anyway, she probably would have lost her job at the minimum and could be sued or worse.

Backcountry

Haven't you heard many times of people doing something awful or allowing something awful to happen to a family member for money or an inheritance? (The Menendez brothers in CA come to mind.) I didn't say that was the answer in this case, but it IS a possibility for why daughter isn't upset about what happened.

Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received.

That's the bottom line period. The nurse did nothing wrong and everything right.

Looks like you beggars who supported obamacareLESS won. Her death panel voted against

her 666 to nothing!! Your'e gonna see alot more of this people. The insurance companies are in it for the money now. If you think they were making a profit before, just watch thier bottom line now. Patient is sick, let them die!!!!!! The bastards won and you let them!!!!!!!

To the person decrying DNR and DNI orders, those are there for a reason, to respect the wishes of the possibly soon to depart. Everybody should have a living will that indicates what he or she does and does not want to have done.

Mine involves the cases in which I want the plug to be pulled and when I find it permissible to harvest the organs. It's mostly common sense stuff, but it's there in case my parents need to make those decisions for me so that they have something to provide cover so they don't feel like they're murdering me.

BTW, I'm only 32 and I had a heat stroke at 30, thankfully, I pulled through with no obvious damage, but I could easily have been unlucky and wound up in a condition worse than dead for the next several decades.

Tim, what's wrong with you? A woman in her late 80s has access to nationalized healthcare, so I'm not sure what Obamacare would have to do with this.

WTF!!! Is California going to the dumps or what, fire fighters and rescue crews let man drown in San Francisco Bay, but they go rescue a horse out in sea. A lady falls to the floor and the nurse just watches??? Yeah, the Liberals really have good morals!

For crying out loud already...

This has nothing to do with Obama even though Obama sucks badly.

This has nothing to do with being sued even though in California we are awful about lawsuit reforms. But the one area we do have right is that proper care given in situations like these cannot be rewarded with a judgement against the person who acted properly.

This has nothing to do with Obamacare even though Obamacare sucks just as badly as Obama.

This facility has a KNOWN policy of not performing emergency medical care on people in the independent living facility. People can, or cannot, being FREE people, decide to pay for the services they do provide (Obamacare will be changing our freedom and so this will one day not be true, but that is another debate).

Imagine if the nurse had performed CPR against company policy and was fired. Then you same complainers would be here demanding the firm rehire her, but in that case the nurse would likely go to court and demand people like you be on her jury so she could get an enormous and unjust, as well as undeserved, award.

If the woman's OWN freaking daughter is happy with the care her mother received, and the daughter is a nurse, and the woman who died knew the rules of the place she agreed to live in, then who in the hell are any of us to decide that what was done was wrong? Even if you come down on the side that the woman should've been given CPR, you are putting yourself above that woman's free choices affecting her own life and you are putting yourself above the company that offered to her that very choice and you are putting yourself above the nurse who complied with both her employer's AND the woman's contractual choice.

Think it through...by your criticisms and complaints here you validate the very garbage we will face with Obamacare. "The nurse should do what we say, not what the patient/resident says, and not what her employer says, but what WE say". All hail fascism.

First of all CPR on an anyone requires chest compressions and chest compressions on an 87 year old will ultimately crack her ribs. Second of all she probably did have a DNR on file which is why the family was satisfied with the care she was given in the facility. This is why a hate news reporting only half the story. The nurse is probably not to blame at all and doing her job and the news is trying to sensationalize the story just to get people to listen to their program. This is terrible reporting at its best. Let's stop blaming the nurse and the facility and find out the real truth. Journalism is full of half truths and innuendoes these days just to blow things out of proportion.

I would hope that if I ever have to live at a nursing home, whether assisted or skilled, that they have that sort of policy. I will make sure that a DNR is in place. It is the most basic form of what some would call assisted suicide. Although it is a natural death which has not been extended by heroics! My thought is that if it is my time, when I am a little older, then it is my time and I do not need to enrich someones pocketbook or make myself poorer, or be a financial drain on the government, to please others views on humanity! I will have lived my life, and doubt that I will be enriching mine or anyone elses life by prolonging it! I agree with @Heartland comment 1.25 and @Dave comment 1.36. This is what is wrong with us, we have decided that the individual/ family choices should not be honored and that we should have the government/society making the personal decisions for us!

Marty-3578909

Haven't you heard many times of people doing something awful or allowing something awful to happen to a family member for money or an inheritance?

Yes but I realize those things are incredibly rare. I don't typically bother with "what if's" when the odds are astronomically small. If they wanted moms money so bad why blow potentially 10's of thousands of dollars on an assisted living facility?

Lets all hope we never work at this place and happen to get shocked by accident and our heart stops, or choke while eating lunch. According to "company policy" I guess if your even 18 years old the staff, your coworkers, can't help you.

For everybody crying about the company policy, thank the Trial Lawyers Assn. It's California people! You can be sued for ANYTHING! The retirement home is just covering their butts. As for me, if I make it to 87 and just keel over one day, I'm figuring it was a good life! CPR at 87 sounds kinda pointless.

@Stephen Nichols

18 year olds don't live in retirement homes!

All nurses in this country take oaths upon completion of their training similar to the Hippocratic Oath administered to new physicians in this country. As far as I am concerned, that nurse violated that oath to care for her patient, irregardless of the patients age, by refusing to provide a potential life saving measure and has absolutely zero business in her profession. She has obviously become jaded and seriously needs to consider a career change!

My small political rant, There is no such thing as "THE good samaritan law". There are dozens of DIFFERENT laws, in different states, that say different things. One more example (among many) of the lunacy of "states rights". As one nurse commented, you have to know what your state's law says and does. (And, if you move, or travel on vacation, you better know the laws in any states you find yourself in.) Ah, the joys of states' rights.

This sounds to me like another one of those "Catch 22" things. Maybe CPR is like some other medical procedures (like say annual mammograms) that are mostly symbolic. I don't know. The daughter seems to say that she is satisfied with the facility's service. (Whether that answer applies to this situation, the story doesn't mention. It could just be a general statement about all-around care, spread out over years.) I'd have a hard time saying that the facility was ok, given that they followed a policy not to even attempt to help my dying mother (whatever their rationale), even if the "help" would have been mostly symbolic. (About that annual mammogram thing, if you don't get one [symbolic, or not] and you don't find out you have breast cancer, until its already stage four, what do you think you will tell yourself, and your family?) The daughter may be a better person than I am.

The facility's policy is just business, folks. (Nothing personal.) Businesses are in business for one purpose (and one purpose only): To maximize profits! (Not to make a great products, or provide outstanding service, or create jobs, or save lives, or whatever else you may think. Those things may, or may not be part of a particular business plan, but they are not why the business is in business [if I were snarky, I would mention that they are not in business to be good citizens, or good people, either.].) A good rule of thumb: Whatever any successful business does (whatever it may look like) is ALWAYS aimed at maximizing profits. Period. That's not wrong. But, all parties need to keep that realization uppermost in mind, at all times. Buyer, be aware!

The family knew what the policy was and are satisfied, why is anybody complaining about this so called story?

HEY BRENDA, heres a tidbit for your snotty little pea brain to chew on. People are questioning why the company would have a policy of calling 911 when a person has a DNR. You actually have to think beyond your insulting knee jerk instant reply. I know it makes you feel like such a superior twit, but you really are an annoying little insect.

BTW, DNR policies that I have seen all say you DO NOT call 911. Even home hospice tells you not to call for an ambulance, call them. The reason you call for an ambulance is because you want someone treated for thier condition. If the plan is to let them go- why would you call?

Sounds to me like the facility found a way to use EMS to handle thier end of life issues or some odd legal prevention.

I previously worked in an Assisted Living facility as a Wellness Nurse. We did not provided "nursing" care, however I supervised the caregivers and medication aides. The company I worked for is one of the largest Assisted Living Community corporations in America. I was astounded to learn they had a NO CPR policy!!! I told them at hire I could not ethically comply with that policy. The HR Director said she understood my views and would "pretend" she didn't hear me say that. She also advised me that I would be fired if the situation were to occur and I gave CPR. She also went on to say the company would follow up with legal action towards ME! I still accepted the job. But, I can say the oath I took as a nurse supersedes any company policy. As a nurse and as someone who is certified in CPR, I have a professional, moral and ethical obligation to administer CPR. I don't think any court would argue against that. The only way I would NOT give CPR is if there was a Do Not Resuscitate order on file for the patient/ resident. She should not be fired for following company policy, but she should have her nursing license revoked if there was not a DNR in the chart.

Putting aside the company policy which could be in place for a good reason, and which the residents or their POA's have signed. Maybe the Dr. should be investigated for filling out the POLST.

Have any of you armchair medical proffesionals ever done CPR on anyone? If you do it right you WILL break bones, if you don't do it right you're wasting time.

To the people saying the nurse needs to be fired, I say she needs some flowers, the patient is better off now, an 87 year old with broken ribs would more than likely never leave the hospital. Demanding the nurse perfprm CPR in this instance is pretty cruel.

When my mother was in the hospital she had a big red DNR across her chart. She was 84 and her lungs were failing. She smoked since her 20s, she didn't have cancer, but her lungs were shot. She had a person that monitored her treatment from the agency that tracks the care of older people after they inter hospitals or extended care facilities, I guess Sarah Palin would call that a death panel. This woman made sure that these facilities followed the wishes of the older patients. I had been out of the country, so when I first saw the DNR across her chart I ask the nurse, what's up, and the nurse explain that it's what my mom wanted. My mom had lived a full long life. At 84 she knew she wouldn't last, as her lungs were starting to fail.

So before people start to go nuts over this failure to start CPR, maybe this is what the woman and her family wanted, by being in this facility, that had a policy to not initiate CPR!!

My 96 year old grandmother is in an assisted living facility. I spend a lot of time with her and others there, most of whom have dementia or Alzheimer's. They are tragic and horrible diseases to live with, and most are in those facilities because they can no longer care for themselves and live in a constant state of confusion, sadness, and agitation...yet, they are often still aware that they've lost the basic dignity of even being able to go to the bathroom without asking for help (or if they don't make it in time, can't even clean up after themselves). It's heartbreaking. There are many reasons people can collapse or need emergency assistance that are not always life-threatening. Perhaps that is why it is policy to call 911. I cannot imagine anyone who has witnessed the day-to-day life of elderly individuals that can no longer care for themselves to the point of being in assisted living wanting to prolong it. I certainly would be surprised if a family member of any resident at my grandmother's facility were upset if CPR hadn't been performed on their loved one, so I think the daughter's response is completely normal and correct. I'm sure it is made clear upon intake of the resident that they don't perform CPR, and, I feel this is the way most elderly people prefer it.

It seems that this 911 dispatcher (and all of you so angry at the lack of CPR) need to spend some quality time volunteering at your local assisted living facility. They could definitely use the company, and you will come away with a new appreciation for the present. This is a non-story, that was written without exploring both sides of the issue and without giving enough information. This 911 operator (or whomever went to news with the story) should be ashamed, and NBC News should be embarrassed for reporting on it in the manner in which they have. If nothing else, this should have been used as a teachable moment highlighting the lack of understanding, and apparently, blatant lack of knowledge many people have of what life is like for a large portion of our elderly population.

If I make it to my 80's and can no longer care for myself, or whatever age I am if I am robbed of my mental capacity, I can only hope that I am allowed to die when it is my time. If this nurse had brought her back with CPR, she wouldn't have saved her life, she would've only allowed her to survive.

Damn this world!!! Anyone who thinks it was ok for that nurse to refuse CPR IS AN IDIOT!!!!

My wife is a nurse and she would help anyone who needed it as quickly as she could, regardless of the consequences. I know this because she HAS done it.

If you disagree than you're out of line, PERIOD! This isn't even an argument, there are no alternative answers. If you are put in charge of the care of others than you have a responsibility and a DUTY to make sure they stay alive as long as possible.

People in nursing homes aren't paying THOUSANDS of dollars per month to be abandoned in their time of need. Shame on this POS nurse for letting her die this way. Shame on all of you defenders of this nurses actions.

Every single day this country gets dumber and dumber and NONE OF YOU want to fix it because you're all just too damn lazy and incompetent. It's easy to do wrong...the hard thing is doing right.

Stephen, Marty, et al,

There isn't anything in this story to suggest, or in any story about this to suggest, that the family was in cahoots with the independent living facilty provider to deprive this old woman care in order to get an inheritance. If people want a place to live where the rules are different than this place plenty of them exist. This woman, for whatever reasons she had, chose this facility. She owned her own body, and in my opinion controlled her own destiny.

The arguments you people make against this woman living her life as she wanted--this all presumes she wasn't compelled to live there against her will--are equally as dangerous to us all as Mr. Obama's ideas that he, and fascistic people like him, should be able to dictate to each of us how we live our lives too. If no crime here was committed, and so far there isn't even a whiff of a crime, then be HAPPY that this elderly woman lived, and died, as SHE wanted to. Those days are going to quickly come to an end, and your arguments against her liberty are the very fodder people like Mr. Obama needs to make it happen.

I wasn't there so I can't condemn the nurse, I like many other people have to take a yearly course that involves cpr and am always informed of the potential of a liability suit if I ever assist someone in need, after a person receives x amount of training they have to be insured to assist, the good Samaritan act no longer applies you are responsible and sadly sometimes you are expected to stand back, its the way it is, you help someone then they die some time later from a complication or just run out of life, and you become the target and your life gets ruined or even your employer, the property owner, lawyers just crawlout of every crack in the system and you can only wish you were never their in the first place. its a tough decision but given the age of the victim she probably is better off, how many times do you expect someone to have to die, and what good is life if it is void of quality, like I said I wasn't their and maybe this was the better scenario, sometimes feelings can get in the way of rational thought, sometimes there is no right way of handling a situation. my respects to the departed and sympathies to the family. if you have a need to blame someone for her death blame a insurance co, or the lawyers hiding behind every case, they created the mess. if your a liberal just blame Bush or Boehner.

yep, Ranger Combat Vet. you're probably the last decent individual in existence. the world & everything in it sucks with the exception of your self-righteous, simple-minded, self-proclaimed martyr. (guessing you're the type that's not happy unless you're pissed off.) smoke the proverbial joint...

Ranger Combat Vet, do you know what POLST stands for? Do you know what DNR is? Ask your wife if you need clarification. If my relative was under DNR and your wife disregarded that, I would own all your stuff, PERIOD.

If you disagree than you're out of line, PERIOD! This isn't even an argument, there are no alternative answers. If you are put in charge of the care of others than you have a responsibility and a DUTY to make sure they stay alive as long as possible

When you are part of the care team, you follow the orders of the people up the chain. The Dr., and family make the decision for care of the patient, if CPR is not on the list having a rogue nurse "go off the reservation" opens up lawsuits, good sam does not apply.

OK.....<deep breath> here I go:

I have been an ICU RN in California for 25 years. Lots of experience with this sort of thing. I have a couple of thought on this.

First, the article states that a "nurse" called 911. Are we talking about an RN, an LVN/LPN, or a CNA? Since this happened in California, if this was a licensed facility, it had to be one of the above. Training levels vary with skill level.

Second, did the "nurse" see the patient collapse, or did she find her already down? It isn't really clear. If CPR is started immediately after someone collapses, it is possible to save their life. If they have been down for, say 10 minutes before CPR is started, the odds of getting them back approaches zero. Age also does make a difference. It is easier to resucitate a baby than an 80 year old. As far as the broken ribs are concerned, unless you are doing CPR on an infant, you are probably going to break bones. That is just the way CPR works.

Third, "Good Samaritan Laws" do not apply in this case. In California, if you are employed as a member of the medical staff and you do CPR on someone, you are not covered. By definition, you have a "duty" to your patients. Being a "Good Samaritan" means that you have no "duty", but choose to do CPR anyway. BTW, "duty" does not mean to prolong life no matter what! It means to care for the patient according to the patient's wishes!

Fourth, DNR laws in the state of California requires a prior discussion with the patient to follow their wishes. If the patient isn't able to make these decisions, the family may make them. There are lots of reasons that a patient would have this in place. Terminal illness comes to mind. The article doesn't state that this patient has a DNR. I do know that there are facilities that only accept patients with DNRs. Most Hospice facilities are one example. If the patient has a valid DNR order, you can't be sued for not doing CPR, but you CAN be sued for actually doing CPR!

Fifth, this article leaves out quite a bit of information that would have been nice to have! Did the patient have a DNR? What skill level did the 'nurse' have? How long had the patient been 'down'? What is the actual policy at this facility?

It seems to me that if the patient's daughter was OK with the outcome, complete strangers who read about this on-line should be OK with it too.

Lastly, when in doubt, do CPR!!!!!!!

Posted this in the wrong place, so I'll repost it here.

eric (#1.61 above) provides a link. Perhaps some of you would like to know what really happened there. Here is a transcript of the last three minutes of that call.

Dispatcher: We need to get CPR started

Nurse: Yeah, we can't do CPR

Dispatcher: Then hand the phone to the passerby. If you can't do it, I need, hand the phone to the passerby, I'll have her do it. Or if you've got any civic citizens there, I'll have them do it.

Nurse: No, no, it's not …

Dispatcher: Anybody there can do CPR. Give them the phone, please. I understand if your facility is not willing to do that. Give the phone to that passerby, that stranger … this woman is not breathing enough. She's going to die if we don't get this started. Do you understand?

Nurse: I understand. I am a nurse. But I cannot have our other senior citizens who don't know CPR do it…

Dispatcher: I will instruct them.

Nurse: we're in a dining room …

Dispatcher: I will instruct them. Is there anyone there who will …

Nurse: I can't do that …

Dispatcher: Okay. I don't understand why you're not willing to help this patient

Nurse: I am but, I'm just saying that …

Dispatcher: Okay, I'll walk you through it all. We, EMS takes the liability for this, Colleen. I'm happy to help you. This is EMS protocol.

At this point, the nurse asks someone else to get a supervisor. She is heard telling someone else at Glenwood Gardens, "Can you get (unintelligible) … right away. I don't know where he is. But she's yelling at me and saying we have to have one of our other residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed and I'm not going to do that, make that call."

Dispatcher: Colleen, is there anybody who works there who is willing do to it?

Nurse: We can't do that. That's what I'm trying to say.

Dispatcher: Are we just going to let this lady die?

Nurse: That's why we're calling 9-1-1.

Dispatcher: We can't wait. She can't wait right now. She is stopping breathing. She can't wait for them to get there.

Nurse: She's taken three breaths.

Dispatcher: It's not enough. We need to get CPR started.

Nurse: He's saying we don't. So you can talk to my boss. I don't know what to say.

Dispatcher, to another dispatcher: They're refusing CPR. They're going let her die. By the facility. Yeah.

Nurse: When will the fire department be here? When will the ambulance be here?

Dispatcher: They're coming as quick … they've been on the way all this time. But we can't wait. This lady is going to die.

Nurse: Yeah.

Dispatcher: Well, if you get anybody, any stranger that happens to walk by, who is willing to help … I understand if your boss is telling you you can't do it. But if there's any … it's a human being. I don't, you know … is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?

Nurse: Not at this time.

Dispatcher, to another dispatcher: No. They won't touch her at all. I can't get them to touch her at all.

Nurse: We have residents that are her age or older.

Dispatcher: Any guests? Any guests that are there that are willing to help?

Nurse: No, I don't have any.

Dispatcher: Is there a gardener? Any staff … anyone who doesn't work for you anywhere? Can we flag someone down in the street and get them to help this lady. Can we flag a stranger down? I bet a stranger would help her. I'm pretty good at talking them into it. If you can flag a stranger down, I will help, I will tell them how to help her.

Nurse: He said not to move her.

Dispatcher: Okay. Has anyone gone to look for a stranger?

At this point, the ambulance and fire crews arrive and the tape ends. More info at the link.

BTW, the woman did not have a DNR, was living in her own apartment - not in a nursing facility, and was still breathing (but only barely). It would appear that a little help might have made all the difference.

But the nurse wouldn't even hand the phone to someone who would have been able to help.

As a Respiratory tech in a hospital I did CPR many times as part of a code and I used to teach it for the Red Cross and American Heart Association. Some lived during those codes and did well, some died, and some lived and did fairly okay but died later. It all depends on the situation whether CPR is appropriate and what the outcome is, and I worked on everyone from newborns to elderly, and I have to say that doing CPR on an 87 woman isn't going to end well. I wish the nurse had explained a bit more to the 911 operator, but it wouldn't have saved the woman if she had done CPR. I have seen some recover and leave the hospital healthy and some hang on sick and miserable for months, and of course many died despite the code procedures. There isn't a "one-size-fits-all" for everyone, and I disagree that doing CPR at an accident is not going to work and is just for the bystanders in every case by any means. I have worked on patients brought in from accidents or illnesses who did get CPR, and although of course many die, some did live and have decent or healthy lives.

The lady was 87 though...ever given CPR to an older person? The sensation of fragile ribs cracking under your hands isn't a pleasant one and the person wouldn't make it or would be in serious pain and die soon after. That sure isn't how I want to go at that age. Those of you saying things about the family need to get a grip. You have no reason to say that and you have no clue what they feel or think. Shame on you for accusing a family of awful things when you don't know the whole story or you haven't a clue about what CPR does to an 87 year old woman.

Lea Kelly, it seems that you missed the part about her living in the independent section of this facility. That means she was able to live independently and still able to do for herself. That, by definition, means she did not have Alzheimer's.

If she had a DNR it should have stated it in this article (typical poor writing and half done articles we see so often.) I have seen many people at 87 who are not only still spry but have all their facilities. However, at that age you don't want to pass out in your home and need help and not be found for an extended period of time. One of the posters said there is zero chance of them getting out of the hospital alive after performing CPR on anyone over 80. Why would you not at least try? I once did the heimlich manuever on a 90 lb, 82 year old woman. I did crack one of her ribs, because she was so fragile, but she lived. Should I have not even tried because I might have hurt her. Then I, and the other hundred guests in the restaurant who were all just sitting and staring would have watched her die.

If my parent was in this facility I would immediately remove them. Quite frankly, no matter how futile, unless there was a DNR, I would want someone to at least try. This whole article saddened me. As someone who cared for my mother at home for 10 years through many illnesses before the end of her life, I am sad this woman ended her life with a nurse who was more concerned with company policies than a woman's life. If, however, it turns out she was terminally ill (which would seem odd given that she lived independently), that should have been stated so we are not all thinking poorly of this nurse.

Rules, Regulations, Red Tape - That's Obama and Big Government for ya!

Mamny people have ignored the last sentence in the article because the author got the desired effect - piss off the ignorant populace:

Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received.

It doesn't sound to me like the care center has to worry about being sued, except by the people on this site who don't have a dog in the fight.

Here is a real life example of almost the exact same thing. My mother and sister called 9-1-1 because my father was in distress. My sister was a nurse and they refused to perform CPR. When the ENTs got there the first thing they wanted to do was intubate my dad. My mother refused to allow them and told them of his wishes of DNR/DNI. The paramedics kept telling my mother to get out of the way or they would call the police. She told them if they kept trying to intubate him she would call the police. When they had him on the gurney and ready to transport they wouldn't let her into the ambulance and she told thm to put him in her van and she would transport. They relented because she knew they would try to intubate while in transit.

The reason for my story isn't for pity. It is to point out that the media is know for only telling part of the story to get readership. The care center could have been following "company policy" of following the patients wishes but was also required to call for medical attention because it was not a hospice center.

The media has done its job: inflamed the passions of its readers.

@Ranger Combat Vet you are wrong your wife is insured if she is practicing and required to play by the rules, not all nurses are in a job where they can afford to carry malpractice insurance like a lower level nurse in a assisted living might only be there to call for assistance when its needed, more of a elder sitter then a practical nurse or even a registered nurse, those personal may be in a clinic on the facility but not always on the floor, not everyone that looks like a nurse and has the tittle is in fact qualified and capable of doing the job in a legal sense, if they don't have the insurance they cant risk assisting and if they assist when they are not supposed to they will never be insured again because the cost would be to great, that person would be priced out of a job. besides CPR on a frail old lady is in its self a death sentence and a horrible death at that so what should she have done. old people don't survive being resuscitated even in a ER setting with all the technology available they usually do not last very long, its almost like old age is working against them.

What's sad is that if the nurse had performed CPR and saved the patient's life, the nurse would have been fired the next day. Gotta hand it to California... would somebody PLEASE dump that state into the Pacific Ocean already?

In refusing the 911 dispatcher's insistence that she perform CPR, the nurse can be heard telling the dispatcher that it was against the retirement facility's policy to perform CPR.

Wow, the "retirement facility's policy" took precedence over the oath she took during her pinning ceremony:

Florence Nightingale pledge:

"I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly, to pass my life in purity and to practice my profession faithfully. With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician in his work, and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care."

Wait a minute....this happened in CALIFORNIFUCA.

@the kids are insane -- Jello? Sounds fun!! :)

Brenda got her last little boorish comment in & she's feeling much better now, thank you. She's comfortable with a "just doin' ma job" response from the nurse, who didn't have either the compassion or the brains to stick her neck out and do the right thing for this woman, when the experts on the phone were telling her exactly what she should do, and that the responsibility for undertaking CPR lay with the EMS. I wonder if Brenda would feel the same way if SHE was the one who needed the help.

Then their is the question of how much medical training does the 911 dispatcher have and should they be advising the medical professionals over the phone? and should these stories from 911 calls be public! or not? where I live there is a privacy thing and even our emergency radios have filters on them so the stories are not reported till the responsible person allows that info out.

I think some are missing the point. They said the relatives were not upset over this incident. My guess is that they're more or less relieved that she has found peace and not rotting in a care facility. Think about it, she's 87 years old, I would not want to be revived at that age either. Especially, when we keep hearing horror stories coming out of nursing homes that make you cringe. This is going to be a common occurrence, especially, when the "Death Panels" take affect. And yes, under the new "Affordable Care Act" (what a joke), they will decide if you are worth the expense. As barbaric as it may be, this woman would have been refused resuscitation under the new rules due to hear age.

Welcome to the future!

@ Brenda1964, totally agree with what you are saying. "some people" obviously were not entirely understanding what you were trying to say, either by choice or lack of insight.

It's not a hard call to make. A human life is at stake. Stop being a selfish idiot and help a dying person. The company policy can go to hell.

This nurse was at an ethical crossroads- to do her duty as a certified nurse or go against her employer's policies which may have cost her a job. Was it better to follow protocol and not administer cpr? Or would it have been better going against the grain, administer cpr and perhaps have saved the woman's life?

From a moral standpoint, she failed her in her duty to protect life. She could have helped save the woman and did not- something that she can't justify despite any insistence that what she did was 'right' because she followed 'the rules'.

However, we can assume that before she accepted employment with this organization that she was apprised of this particular rule, understood why she was not to perform cpr if needed, and had signed an agreement to the same. One can also assume that those entering this facility as well as their families are knowledgeable of such rules and have already agreed to them. In this sense she willfully agreed to go against her training and adhere to the regulations governing her workplace and has done nothing dishonorable.

Which is right? Tough call but the point is, it depends on which perspective you take.

For those of you with your "expert" CPR advice, it certainly depends on the size and frailty of the person. However, if you do it CORRECTLY, you do not risk breaking a rib. You trace the rib cage to just below the sternum and start compressions. It is harder than believed to be and easy to break a rib. And, for the armchair quarterbacks, I am certified and I used to be on the Board of the American Heart Association.

The whole story's not out. Previous posters have pointed out that she didn't have a DNR, but may have had a living will. Who knows?

I wouldn't want to be the nurse though. I personally wouldn't be able to live with myself, but that's just me.

87 DNR times up long life. What more do you want 187 not yet

@laliana, I stand corrected. She was in the independent living part of the facility. The one my grandmother is in is operated by the same company and provides the same care options, but they are all there because their families feel they are not safe or able to live in their homes independently as they once did. That being said, if you are equating "independent living" at this facility (without knowing this woman's medical history) with her being of sound mind and fully capable of making her own decisions, then she would have entered into residency at this facility with the knowledge and consent to the fact that, should she have a heart attack, they would not perform CPR.

So, if she was sharp as a tack, then she made that choice for herself.

All you people on here mouthing off about what should or should not have been done in this situation need to shut your hole and mind your own @!$%#ing business. Most of you don't have any medical experience in your pathetic, wasted little pea brained lives and thus don't know jack about what is or is not the right thing to do in this situation. Most of you so called saints coming on here talking about all the heroic things you would do in this situation and how self sacrificing you would be under similar circumstances in truth couldn't even be bothered to train to be a nurse or take a job as a nurse in a nursing home facility. Want to know why? Because you would not for a moment consider working such a gritty, thankless job for the low pay and benefits these staff make. How's that for selfless? Not only would you not sacrifice your job or well being for these patients, you can't even be bothered to try.

And let me tell you something. Just because I became a nurse does not mean I am any more obligated to want to help people than the next person. I went into nursing as a profession and as such I am responsible for certain PROFESSIONAL obligations just as any other professional. Beyond that, I owe you nothing, and you'll get nothing. My first responsibility is to myself and my family and then my company, not you. I will follow company policy to the letter as it protects my license and puts the blame where it belongs on the company who has a whole hell of a lot more power than I do not to mention $$$. I care for my patients in a professional capacity because that is what I am paid to do. I possess unique abilities and skills due to advanced training which I am paid to use to help the client get the best possible health outcome.

The only thing this nurse likely did wrong was accept a job at such a facility in the first place. She could have likely used her skills in a more personally advantageous setting with less hassle for her and more $$$ to boot.

It's mouthy, self-righteous @!$%#s like yourselves that drove me to take my skills away from the bedside care of actual patients and use it to sell pharmaceuticals. I was amazed at how much better the pay was and the perks compared to being a regular bedside nurse.

In the end I'm not any more selfish than you people are. I'm just more honest. I was a dedicated nurse, too. So shut your hole about how the profession is better off without someone like me because truth is I was dedicated and highly skilled in multiple areas of medical expertise. You and your attitudes drove me away after decades. So now when you need advanced care I and many like me won't be there for you, and all your big talk isn't going to mean jack in that case. And I couldn't give a @!$%#.

dee,

youre off a little on your hand position. Its at t4 (nipple level). Remember, we're trying to squeeze the heart, not abdomen

Place the heel of one hand over the center of the person's chest, between the nipples. Place your other hand on top of the first hand. Keep your elbows straight and position your shoulders directly above your hands.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/first-aid-cpr/FA00061

its nearly impossible on an elderly patient to not crack ribs

If her daughter is a nurse and is comfortable with the actions and inaction of the "nurse" on duty, I am guessing there is more information on the case than we are being told.

All of your idiots blaming Obama, stop blaming the ACA, its not socialized medicine where so called death panels take place. Republican sure now how to make paranoid freaks come out in droves.

I'm glad all you 47%ers are willing to see another American join your ranks of the unemployed...

She followed protocal... something she was torn up about. Had she "(gone) against the grain" she would have lost her job... lost her way to support herself (and her family is she has one). How dare you people make judgment on this woman... it's bad enough that she has to live with this on her concience. Shame on you...

ObamaCare...... Union job..... which one?

I think the law says you do not have to perform cpr. Also if the woman is taking breaths then you dont do cpr.

lso if the woman is taking breaths then you dont do cpr.

thats absurdly incorrect. She was probably having agonal respirations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agonal_respiration

Agonal respirations are also commonly seen in cases of cardiogenic shock or cardiac arrest where agonal respirations may persist for several minutes after cessation of heartbeat. The presence of agonal respirations in these cases indicates a more favorable prognosis than in cases of cardiac arrest without agonal respirations. In an unresponsive, pulseless patient in cardiac arrest, agonal gasps are not effective breaths.

If you don't feel a pulse, do cpr. I dont care what the patients lungs are doing

Nixon99

So you went from giving bedside care to selling pharmas that kill people? This was just a joke so don't flip out.

You are right. Nursing is one of the most thankless, heart-wrenching jobs that I can think of. I spent a month with my mother in an ICU in Florida after she had an aneurism. Those nurses worked their butts off. Plus dealing emotionally knowing that many will not walk out I could see takes a toll. IT is easy to be judgmental from a distance. My mom lived, but told everyone to not let her go through it again, and to not call emergency if it happened.

Nixon99

Wow, bitter much? Sorry to tell you but following company policy will not in anyway protect your license. You are a "professional" and as such are responsible for your own actions. If in following policy you do something that gets the Board riled, you will be a former nurse.

RRS in MN

@the kids are insane -- Jello? Sounds fun!! :)

Brenda got her last little boorish comment in & she's feeling much better now, thank you. She's comfortable with a "just doin' ma job" response from the nurse, who didn't have either the compassion or the brains to stick her neck out and do the right thing for this woman, when the experts on the phone were telling her exactly what she should do, and that the responsibility for undertaking CPR lay with the EMS. I wonder if Brenda would feel the same way if SHE was the one who needed the help.

RRS - Yes I would feel the same way if I was the one needing help. Also, 911 is not a team of experts. I have a friend that used to work as a 911 dispatcher and he has no training in CPR or any other medical procedure to be giving advise over the phone. He says all he is trained to do is try and keep the person calm until help can arrive. Try learning something before you speak. By the way, I feel she had compassion and brains to do the right thing and follow policy. If you don't like it, why don't you try and walk a mile in her shoes before criticizing her. Oh and yes, I have, nurse assistant for the elderly.

Geez, Brenda--give it a rest, girlfriend. As of my writing this, there are over 1,100 comments on this article. Some agree with you; many don't. That's the joy of these comment boards--everyone has the right to his or her opinion, based on their interpretation of what they read. My opinion is that the nurse was wrong. You have a different opinion. Furthermore, you have absolutely no knowledge of what experience I may have on the subject. In any case, I really didn't see anyone calling you stupid because of your opinion. Snotty, rude and quite possibly hateful--but not stupid. In fact, I think many of us are/were quite in awe of your jaw-dropping intellect. I mean, seriously, last I checked, Forrest Gump really is the last refuge of the brilliant....

Bayless' daughter told a reporter for KGET, the NBC affiliate in Bakersfield, that she was also a nurse and was satisfied with the care her mother received.

As a health care professional herself, I really cannot understand how the daughter can say this she is satisfied.

In my opinion, nowhere in this article did I see "DNR" mentioned on this lady. Since all of this is taped through the 911 call, someone at the home should face charges.

Let me say this from reading some of these responses about the Nurse who made the 911 call. I believe she stated her "job" told her the employees could not perform CPR, not that they were not qualified. I'm certified EMS, I also have one daughter who is a FNP, and one who is a RN, I don't think I know any Nurse, or Paramedic who does not know CPR.

Doing a quick search on CPR for the elderly, I found this on the NIH web site --

Abstract

Data comparing the success of CPR in elderly hospitalized persons, those living in the community, and those in long-term care facilities show varying results. In general, elderly patients who receive CPR following arrest do not fare as well as younger patients, but there appears to be a subgroup of elderly in whom the success rate is relatively high. Specifically, patients who demonstrate ventricular fibrillation or ventricular tachycardia are more likely to survive than are those demonstrating asystole or electromechanical dissociation. Most studies have not shown a difference in mental or functional impairment between older and younger survivors of cardiac arrest.

It would be interesting to hear what caused this woman to collapse in the first place, to determine if perhaps she was in the subgroup "more likely to survive"??

Marty-

I'm sorry you are losing someone, it isn't easy. However, don't be so quick to judge me or those in my care. I have cared for my mother since I was 4 years old when she suffered an episode of anoxia on the operating table at the age of 29. She just turned 73. I have cared for her, my now deceased father and my two children. I have done more for my mother than she ever did for me and before you get all judgmental again just realize that you don't know my story.

It would be nice if we all lived a Hallmark card life but it isn't always like that. Some people don't want to live (Even at the age of 29 and with a couple of kids) or care for themselves.

My mother is no longer in my care because I couldn't raise my children and have my mother beg me to help her kill herself each night. I also didn't care much for her crapping her bed each night and laughing as I cleaned it up. I stopped being her primary caretaker because if I continued on like that I was going to let her self medicate and kill herself and I didn't want to be responsible for that, no matter how tired or angry I was.

When you care for someone for as long as I have you can judge me.

Just some observations on my part. I'm NOT a medical professional, and have very minimal training. (I initially wanted to go to med school, but decided before I went to college that the liability was too high...so I went to architecture school instead.)

1) I had a great aunt who lived to be 102 years old. She lived independently until she was 92-95, and probably the last 30 years with a rod in her leg that prevented her bending one of her knees at all. The reason my parents put her in an independent facility was that she fell...an incredibly mild fall...that broke her "good" leg and required surgery to repair. For probably 10 years (starting before she moved into a facility) she would always ask why God left her, but took her sisters. She was ready to die, she was just waiting for the day. Just because she was old, but still healthy and of sound mind, didn't mean she necessarily wanted to be "kept alive".

2) I understand that bones get incredibly brittle as a person ages. I'm just guessing, but, it seems to be there is as much potential for the nursing home to cause catastrophic damage as save the life. What if the nurse did the CPR and keeps the woman alive. But, in the process, she breaks a rib that punctures a lung or the heart, which leads to the woman dying later at the hospital. What if it's later shown that had the nurse not done CPR, the woman would have lived? There would be a huge lawsuit against the facility for causing the damage that ultimately killed the woman. As unfortunate as it sounds, sometimes the best solution is to do nothing if you don't have the facilities immediately available to handle the situation. Most assisted living facilities are not equiped with high-tech medical equipment. Most are basically apartment complexes with nurses to administer meds, and very basic medical equipment.

3) For all of you "bleeding heart...screw the policy, she should have saved her life" folks out there....my question is simple: where do you draw the line? Say you have an 85 year-old who collapses today, and you revive him/her with CPR. Next week he/she collapses again, again you revive him/her. The following day he/she collapses again in the morning, and again is revived. Then collapses again in the afternoon, and again is revived. At what point do you decide, maybe it's just his/her time? What's the point of continuing to revive? What kind of end-of-life quality is that? It seems to me, the company decided they didn't want to draw an arbitrary line at a time or a frequency or a number....they drew the line at the door, and their clients/patients knew it going in.

Those that think they should sue the company remind me of the idiocy that surrounded the housing bubble. People bought houses and SIGNED CONTRACTS for houses they knew they couldn't afford, and when the bold print in the contract actually happened, they blamed someone else for their own failure to read the contract they signed. On what grounds are you sueing, if it was outlined in the contract what the procedures would be should the resident collapse or need medical attention outside of the facility's capabilities?

RRS in MN

Geez, Brenda--give it a rest, girlfriend. As of my writing this, there are over 1,100 comments on this article. Some agree with you; many don't. That's the joy of these comment boards--everyone has the right to his or her opinion, based on their interpretation of what they read. My opinion is that the nurse was wrong. You have a different opinion. Furthermore, you have absolutely no knowledge of what experience I may have on the subject. In any case, I really didn't see anyone calling you stupid because of your opinion. Snotty, rude and quite possibly hateful--but not stupid. In fact, I think many of us are/were quite in awe of your jaw-dropping intellect. I mean, seriously, last I checked, Forrest Gump really is the last refuge of the brilliant....

I never called you stupid, you did, I simply agreed with you.

She didn't have a DNR (as can be seen in other stories on the subject). However...

It's not just a company policy like no-shoes no-shirt or something. Those policies for those types of facilities are generally created by state licensing requirements for elderly care homes, and the facility can lose its license if the nurse violates the policy. The facility could face censure, and the nurse wouldn't have been protected by good-samaritan laws in the very likely case that ribs are cracked or broken on a patient of that age.

The knee-jerk reaction that the nurse is a horrible person is really misappropriated given the age of the person involved and the constraints she is put under to protect both her and the facility. She did what she is supposed to do, and there's a reason those restrictions are put in place for facilities of that type. At 87 years old, unfortunately there's a pretty good chance that CPR would have killed or badly injured her (which is very likely to indirectly cause the death at that age anyway) if the existing condition didn't.

Being able to do CPR is part of being a nurse ??

Unless DNR.

Oh, Brenda--you are just too funny! Remind me sometime to teach you about synonyms and implications.

BTW, in all seriousness, did you listen to the any of the tape of the 911 call? It's posted on abcnews.com. The audio took this article, with its terrible lack of detail, and put some much-needed context around what happened. Seems this woman had a better chance of getting help had she collapsed outside on the street than she did inside that facility. It was really sad to hear, and reinforces my belief that the nurse, if not cold and calloused, wasn't very competent--policy or not.

No, I didn't get a chance yet, but ill check it out.

Rules, Regulations, Red Tape - That's Obama and Big Government for ya!

wtf does Obama have to do with this?

/palmface

Unfortunately, in this situation the nurse, although callous as hell was right. If you don't like it, take it up with the facilities policy, which is stupid to say the least. The nurse should not put herself in a position of getting fired/sued to satisfy 911 dispatch. You can blame our sue-happy society for forcing policies such as this, but it is what it is (and what is, is sad).

Had she broken the woman's rib doing CPR (extremely likely on an 87 year old) and this woman later succumbed to those injuries, many families today would sue the facility/hospital and this nurse would lose her job and possibly her livelihood. It's awful, but that's the reality of the world we live in today.

I think we're missing the overall theme here people.

Fear of litigation has no overtaken saving fellow human beings.

Yes, she was 87 years old. But this facility's policy is a blanket policy. So would you still agree with it if the person was 65 years old? 60 years old?

For those of you yelling she was justified for refusing to help, get a life.

For those of you yelling she was justified for refusing to help, get a life.

But the fact of the matter remains that she WAS justified in refusing to help. I don't like it, but it's the truth, whether or not you think I should "get a life."

Fear of litigation has no overtaken saving fellow human beings.

and whose fault is that? The public has spent decades suing doctors and hospitals into submission for every slight real or imagined. The cost of malpractice insurance for doctors is outlandish because of it. In Nevada, one of the costliest states, OB/GYN malpractice insurance can run from $85k to $142k PER YEAR alone.

The public has forced this, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

I expect that the company's policy was buried somewhere in the paperwork that the family (or she) signed when bringing her into the facility. The nurse obviously knows the company's policy and felt compelled to follow it. I can't fault her as much as I fault the policy of the company for obviously letting well trained staff people stand by and not acting. It's a sad commentary on the world we now live in, where we let people die without helping them because there is more liability in trying to help than in not lifting a finger. Sad. (since the woman's daughter is also a nurse and "understands", I have to wonder if she works in a facility with a similar policy.)

Personally, I don't care WHAT the policy says.....if someone needs CPR and I'm certified to perform it (and I'm sure this nurse is certified), I'd darn well perform it. It seems the 911 dispatcher told her to do CPR, and she chose to ignore the request based on "policy." I would be a little suspect of ANY convalescent hospital or whatever to have a policy that says a nurse can't perform CPR while waiting for the EMT's to arrive, especially if the dispatcher tells her to do so, and there's no DNR order in the patient's file!!

As a nurse, you've pretty much got the same rules as a doctor...."do no harm!" What is also a little suspect to me is that the daughter, or whatever relative put her there, doesn't seem to be too shook up about the situation!! I'd be VERY shook up if this happened to my mother!!

As a note, the patient did NOT have "do not resuscitate" instructions in her file. If I ever had to put someone in a nursing home, you can be darn sure that I'll check to make sure they don't have this type of policy in place! Again, why have nurses in the place if they aren't allowed to do their jobs. I know...they need them to give medications, etc., but this is a little ridiculous!

I believe I read in an article that the policy was to "call 911 for assistance".....my idea of "assistance" would be to follow whatever the dispatcher tells me to do no matter what the rest of the policy may say!!

As for the patient's age....my grandmother was 92 years old, went into respiratory arrest at her nursing home, they did CPR until the EMT's arrived, and guess what......she lived to be 98!! Age doesn't make a darn bit of difference when it comes to prolonging someone's life.....we're not the ones that make that decision!! Someone higher up does that for us.....we can only do what we can until that happens!

A lot of people are too quick to jump to conclusions without having all the facts. Thanks for the rational ones like Brenda on here.

First, I am a nurse with 20 years+ experience, and I have a problem with other nurses and health care personnel who believe this nurse should be fired, sued, or turned into the Board of Nursing. If this was a doctor his/her peers would have his/her back.

Secondly, according to the nurse, the facility is a non-resuscitate facility. The family and the patient would have signed papers stating they were aware of this. This would cover both the nurse and the facility.

Thirdly, too many people are living in fantasy land and don't understand the repercussions of doing CPR on anyone over the age of 70, let alone an 87 year-old. As humans, we are mortal beings, just like all other life forms. We need to come to terms with death, and ask why are we trying to extend life another day? As cold as it seems the lady died peacefully from natural causes. If you think this wasn't a peaceful death you would be mortified to see the outcome of a CPR that leaves one brain dead, hooked to life support & feeding tubes, and immobile with bed sores for months or years. Then people are asking if they can pull the plug!!!

It was a blessing knowing that both my parents passed naturally in the night being spared from all the above. Some family had regretted that they weren't there to help, but both my parents were in their 80's, and that far exceeds the life-expectancy of any developed country in the world. It's too bad that we all can't go at night when others are sleeping.

People need to get a grip and ask are they doing this for their own selfish interest because they are unable to let go, and is their decision in the best interest of the patient/ their loved one?

Karlene -- "Rational" & "ethical" are 2 different things entirely...

And for those screaming to fire the nurse...if she was following company policy you can bet her lack of action saved her job for the reasons I just mentioned. It's a @!$%#ed up system that allows good deeds to be punished but until we get some politicians with the balls to stand up to the trial lawyer lobby and push through tort reform we're stuck with it.

Sad part is that following company policy might have saved her job temporarily, but all the negative publicity is likely to cause the company to fire her anyway. Afterall they will need a scapegoat to blame in order to help minimize thier liability.