What is the "alleged coverup"? Did I miss something?

What was the massive town cover up?

Anytime the police and District Attorney's office don't immediately jump up and file charges, no matter what the state of the evidence, people scream cover-up. They don't understand that these things take time, especially with the lack of physical evidence. The prosecutor only gets one bite at the apple. If they can't convict these guys the first time, they don't get a second shot at it. But in our 24 hour news, Nancy Grace watching, society it is very attractive for some attention-starved people to sit at home and scream "cover up!" while the police try to build a case from practically nothing.

Guilty and a massive small town cover up, they are guilty as well.............

Maybe... but I'll wait until an actual trial is conducted before I make any pronouncements.

Gil, the football players are considered "celebrities" in this small town according to the local news. Public offiicials and parents of the accused put this up as "boy will be boys" mentality. This horrendous act was filmed while they laughed raping her and is the only reason this has gone this far and hopefully a guilty verdict is reached.........

Looks like on line hackers are heroes yet again.

Thanks to bringing the Case to light.

Jim, our society is full of this. very few people have any problem with stereotyping whole groups, towns, or geographical areas based upon a couple of stories they hear.

First of all, why has no one been charged with giving alcohol to minors which started this whole thing?

Secondly, People...don't rush to judgement. They've been convicted by only the media (as usual).

Lastly, regardless of guilt or innocence, they'll be acquitted. We all know football heroes rarely get convicted of anything, remember OJ? Case in point, the little town I live in, FOOTBALL CRAZY (and I do mean crazy as in psychotic), local football "hero" accused of assault with a deadly weapon, 4 witnesses testify, acquited. Why? Well the bat he used to pummel the victim was not his and it was considered self defense to hit the victim 27 times fracturing not only his skull, but 16 other bones as well because the victim had the bat first. According to witnesses, the victim confronted the "hero" after being bullied (over a long period of time) and finally confronted the "hero" after he made sexually suggestive comments to the victim's sister (all documented by school and law enforcement). The "hero" was 7 inches taller and 60 lbs heavier than the victim and easily disarmed him during the encounter.

To make a long story short, in communities where high school football dominates the topic of conversation and the players are held in such high regard, there is a mindset that football is like "The Hunger Games", it's life itself.

If the record of football players (at all levels of competition) and their run-ins with the law remains status quo, then eventually the accused players in this incident will have future run-ins with the law. I will be very surprised should they be convicted.

patrick hanna *1.7 I must point out that you are correct about parents of today, the parents of today do defend their kids no matter what the evidence is but that was not true of parents in the past.

I am 62 years old and when I was a kid my mother knew when I had done something wrong and did not defend me she loved me as much as the mothers loves their kids today the exception is that the parents of yesterday knew that love did not include acceptance of bad behavior.

So Denver Bill you think it was ok for a circle of boys to watch this girl get raped and probably jerking off in the process? Very sick thinking, how would you feel if it were your daughter? You probably don't have kids which is a good thing.

our society is full of this. very few people have any problem with stereotyping whole groups, towns, or geographical areas based upon a couple of stories they hear.

Patrick, it's not stereotyping when it's true! Wish you could come to my little town during football season and witness this phenomenon first hand.

seven2seven

This is exactly the problem we have here. Stating a fact does not in any way equal condonation. I don't know where you get that from. If the witnesses did something illegal, they should be charged. But if what they did was not illegal then it doesn't matter one bit what you or anyone else thinks about it.

zapain

most stereotypes have a tiny basis in reality that is then blown wildly out of proportion. Are you telling me that all or even most of the 18,000 people in this town, or the 120,000 people in the greater statistical area, are supportive of a "cover-up" in this thing? Or is the reality that a few people who are very loud and maybe well-placed in a few spots have tried to poo-poo the incident as nothing?

Jon Exner

I know parents weren't always like this. I'm 39, and when I was younger my parents did not defend me, even when I wasn't in the wrong, unless it was something serious. If I was in trouble at school or a friend's house I was in trouble at home. The lesson was learned, at least by me, very quickly.

"These people online have made them guilty? Why have they ruined them?"

Welcome to "trial by media". How does it feel to be accused of something that you may not be guilty of? The defense tries to portray the girl as being promiscuous and "asking" for it, etc. For once the shoe is on the other foot and the accused get a dose of their own medicine.

It's great that the girl is willing to go through with the trial. Unfortunately if the guys are found guilty they will only have to serve time in juvenile detention until they are 21. She will have to live with this the rest of her life.

As usual, people read into statements what they want to hear. Never said "the whole community". Never said anything about a cover up either. Just simply commenting that you can't call it stereotyping when it's true. This goes for anything, even outside of football.

READ PEOPLE...READ. SEE THE WORDS, NOT WHAT YOU THINK IS IMPLIED AND READING BETWEEN THE LINES, GEEEEESH!

a jury of their peers...12 mr. potato heads...

To clarify Zapain, the obvious implication in your comment was that the Steubenville stereotype was true. That's what I responded to.

And then 'plain bob' came along and very uneloquently proved that what I said about ignorant people forming ignorant stereotypes is the truth.

"I thought these guys were innocent until proven guilty, but they're not," Wheat told Reuters. "These people online have made them guilty? Why have they ruined them?"

I guess football is more important than justice for some people.

Perhaps she should ask "Why have these punks ruined the rape victim's life"?

usa1967- "I certainly don't condone the actions of the guys but maybe a 16 yr old girl shouldn't get so drunk she doesn't know what is going on."

If you never had too much to drink when you were 'young and foolish', then you are the exception, not the rule. And her drinking too much is not an excuse for raping her.

If your daughter had too much to drink, would that make it ok for some young punks to rape her?

This is a rape case not a popularity contest.

The town is about to find that out.

I guess football is more important than justice for some people

Funny, some people would say that the Constitution of the United States is more important than justice, and those people would be right to say that. The deck is deliberately stacked in favor of the defense for a reason. All this online BS does nothing but unstack it. You might think that's okay because these guys are almost undoubtably guilty, but tell the Duke Lacrosse players that it's okay for people to act this way. Tell the victims of Tawana Brawley that it's okay for our society to be a lynch mob. A simple google search will show you people who have had years, decades, and even entire lifetimes stolen from them when they were innocent. Armchair warriors who sit at home and pontificate about the sins of the non-convicted are the worst kind of people.

"I certainly don't condone the actions of the guys but maybe a 16 yr old girl shouldn't get so drunk she doesn't know what is going on."

Yep. She shouldn't have. & I shouldn't have when I was 18, and my friend's stepfather raped me. Lesson learned. BUT- It is still in NO WAY her fault. I don't think there is a single person out there who doesn't know, drunk or not, if consent is NOT GIVEN, it's RAPE. The boys knew what they were doing, and they thought they were too good to be caught. WRONG.

Hopefully this high-profile case will remind some men that rape isn't OK if she's drunk.

Seven2Seven

So Denver Bill you think it was ok for a circle of boys to watch this girl get raped and probably jerking off in the process?

Do you make unwarranted assumptions regularly, or just occasionally?

Very sick thinking,

I absolutely agree. However, the thought was yours, not mine. I suggest you seek help.

I remember a story of a woman, Juanita Broaddrick, who claimed she was raped but nothing was ever done because of the status of the accused. Nothing new here. Can't we all just move on?

Just a thought for you to ponder. I would refuse to just move on in case you're wondering.

@ Jessicalc: One other point: who gave a 16 year old girl unlimited access to alcohol?

That's also against the law, and in scenarios like this one, those providing the alcohol are accessories to any crimes resulting from doing so.

This isn't hard to follow; the "heroes" who raped this minor need to go to jail- where they might have to worry about what it's like to be on the bottom, not on top.

I can't believe anyone's defending these punks at all, given the publicly available evidence, which is quite damning- the whole thing's disgusting under the best of circumstances.

Sex with any "partner" of any age who has been drugged by any means into a paralytic stupor is one very small step up from necrophilia.

There's no question of consent under those circumstances- which makes it rape.

USA1967, do you really think it's ok to rape a girl because she gets drunk or are you just taking a silly stance so people will respond to your comments. Unless your driving getting drunk isn't a crime, rape is a crime. I just hope your not teaching your sons that its ok to take advantage of a drunk teenager.

Karl, where do you get that? To begin with, USA1967 said that he/she does not condone what they did.

I ride a motorcycle quite a bit, and I run into your BS type of thinking all the time. I can't count the number of times I have had arguments with other riders and they insist that the fact that bikers are rarely at fault in accidents is a valid reason to not wear a helmet. It's not. You're still going to be dead either way.

You people get so emotional over this that you refuse to see reason. You asked USA1967 if they taught their sons that it is okay to take advantage of a drunk teenager. So, I am going to ask you this: do you teach your daughters that it is a good idea to get drunk around strangers and then trust the criminal justice system to make it right for them later? Do you?

No one is excusing what these people did. At least, no one here in this thread is doing that. But that doesn't mean that real discussion of real issues should be forbidden. It's okay to take a proactive stance against these kinds of things. That means sometimes teaching your daughters that there are bad men in the world and that losing control of your faculties around them could result in something unpleasant. That should be a lesson learned for all.

And not that it matters, but getting drunk when you are sixteen years old is, in fact, a crime.

Everyone is calling the "circle of boys" "witnesses"

Are they not obligated to help when someone is in peril? I though there were laws pertaining to "good samaritan" acts. - something likeyou cannot just stand by and watch a violent crime?

usa1967, I agree that drinking too much is not good idea. But if a woman drinks too much it doesn't give anyone the right to rape her. I know a couple of sane nurses (they perform the examination of a woman that has been raped), they said it makes them sick to see parents who blame their daughters for drinking too much and were raped. The blame lays solely with the cowards who violated her and raped her.

"I thought these guys were innocent until proven guilty, but they're not," Wheat told Reuters.

Being innocent until proven guilty only works when you are not caught red handed or distribute a video you made doing the act all over the internet.

"These people online have made them guilty? Why have they ruined them?"

Answer: For Great Justice and for the LULZ.

Protip: These "upright citizens" you want to defend is doing a fine job ruining their own lives without any help from the Interbutts. Maybe they should have thought about how they are wrecking their lives BEFORE you video tape and distribute a rape?

Mom2Five-3579602

Do you think that it not being their fault really makes it better for rape victims? No one said anyone had the right to rape her. They said that people should take more care to not allow themselves into compromising positions. That's something everyone should be telling their children. It shouldn't be something that is forbidden to say.

I am so tired of honest discussion being translated by hysterics into "Oh so you condone this?" That is absurd.

I raised my kids in a small town in Northern Michigan. Our football team sucked so we didn't have this kind of problems. In 08 when the bottom fell out I had to move my wife, daughter and I to a bigger city in NW Michigan. Things were different right away for my daughter who was then only 13. She is a very pretty young girl, and the boys just fall all over her. She kept telling us that things were really bad for girls here in this town. Over time she has told us that she is molested daily by these boys, much of the time on the bus ride to school and home. Now she is in High school. It happens openly in school and the teachers do nothing about it. I want to go to the police but I already know they will turn it on us and make it my girls fault for being so pretty. They will say she dresses to sexy. The truth is, this town like most towns in Northern Michigan are Republican strong holds. A Dem wouldn't even try to run and last election there was not one Dem on the ballot. So there is a lot of money around and the girls are just sex toy's for the boys. These boys know they can do what ever they want and no will do anything about it. I talked to the School and they said they can't do a thing about it. There was a party put on by the Hockey team that she was invited to. She didn't go because she was to have had sex with at least 6 of the team members. That's what it takes to get into one of these party's. Not to say anything about the Drugs and drinks there. The one bright light is that one of my daughters girl friend's dad is a State Trooper and she went to that party, and she was feed drinks with the date rape drug in them. !2 guys gang raped her not knowing her dad was a state trooper. One of the girls friend's called her dad once she knew what was going on, the party was busted, they did a blood test and found the drug in her blood, and 12 hockey players on on trial for rape. And the worst thing here is none of them used condoms. She was raped orally, anally, and Vaginally. The State had to take over the case and move it out of this town. It is such a pretty place to live. but we are leaving as fast as we can transfer to get out daughter away from here. She is such a nice young lady that some of the good young men protect her. With out them she would just have to take the abuse. These rich kids have to be protected at all cost. But the Raped the wrong girl this time, and 10 of the 12 are 18 YO. You will not read of this in the news. Its bad for business and the rich kids can keep there names out of the news because there dads are friends with the right people. They fought like hell to keep the trial here, wounder why?????

As to the getting drunk at 16 comment- where did the alcohol come from? I guess its all her fault since she was 16 and had drinks handed to her- by whom? then who bought the stuff for any of those teenagers?

This does not excuse their actions at all, but girls, this is why you need to keep your wits about you when you're not in the company of close, trusted friends. Not all, but many guys, just cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

Zapain - in our town it's hockey. Underage drinking (which the parents condone in the off season), drugs, breaking & entering, bullying, assault - you name it. Part of the problem is high school sports are also big business for small town hotels, restaurants, etc., so a winning team = $$$. And usually only the wealthier parents can afford to have their kids in the programs starting at a VERY early age, 4 or 5. They have to buy skates, sticks, and usually lots of equipment not to mention out of town game expenses of gas, food, lodging, etc. And it's a year-round thing, not just in the winter.

This does not excuse their actions at all, but girls, this is why you need to keep your wits about you when you're not in the company of close, trusted friends. Not all, but many guys, just cannot be trusted to do the right thing.

Thank you. But you better cover your head, because a lot of "so I guess you think it's all her fault" is going to be coming your way now.

PM NYC - Good Samaritan acts provide relief from liability from errors that occur while rendering aid in an emergency provided the "Samaritan" acted in good faith and used reasonable caution. Good Samaritan acts do not obligate people to help in an emergency or intervene during a crime.

Patrick, getting drunk when you are 16 is in fact not a crime. Buying alcohol for or providing alcohol to a minor is illegal. Buying alcohol when you are a minor is a crime. Public drunkeness is a crime. DUI is a crime. Being drunk at 16 is not. Most of your posts are correct. There is a rush to judgement on many crimes in our society - guilt by accusation. These include rape, domestic violence, child pornography, almost any crime against children. When the case becomes public because someone has been charged, many people automatically assume the guilt of the accused. Some of us forget that these people are not actually guilty until proven so in court or by a freely given confession. That being said, believing that these guys were given the benefit of the doubt and special treatment because they are local football heroes is not that much of a stretch. Throughout this country we glorify sports to a degree not reasonable relative to the contribution of sport to society. Talented players are treated as royalty even at the small town high school level. Joe Flacco for example was just given a 6-year $120 million dollar contract. No one, NO ONE is worth that much money. And yet around here (Baltimore/Washington) people are whining, not about how much his contract is worth, but about how much the poor dear will have to pay in taxes and how unfair that is to Joe. Yikes.

Patrick Hanna

For the love of god, no one said it was all her fault. No one said it was any her fault. Please show me where someone said that.

Not being at fault does not mean you can't be a victim. You people need to grow up and understand that. All anyone is saying is to not allow yourself to become a victim. In other words, do everything you can to prevent it from happening. I really don't see what's so hard for some of you to understand that.

When you start discussing something like this, logic goes quickly out the window due to being able to relate all too easily in this situation as a parent.

The angle of "there are things she could have done to prevent this" isn't in play. People will see that as justifying the behavior of the accused, even though it's just an observation of what you would suggest to your daughter.

I'll wait for the trial to finish before I pass judgment. I'll let the jury of their peers decide if he is guilty or not, but I won't trust the media to do it.

If I had done anything other than help that drunk girl when I was at that age, both of my parents would have kicked my ass. What kind of monsters are those parents raising? My "circle of friends" at that age would have made sure the girl was safe and would surely have beaten those kids within an inch of life. Regardless of legal guilt of rape, those boys are vermin.

joemike404

I don't know what you want to call it, but in Pennsylvania if you drink while underaged you are arrested and you go to court. Then your driving privileges are suspended or delayed. I know many teenagers this has happened to.

This is off topic, but those professional athletes bring in many magnitudes more than what they are paid. And it's not just to the teams they play for. Thousands of people and businesses rely on those pro athletes for their livelihood.

Getting back on topic, my point was that I really doubt that the whole town was trying to cover it up, as so many people are implying. More likely, it is a few powerful and well-connected people trying to cover it up. Demonizing thousands of people for the actions of a few is absurd.

Other than that, thanks for the support.

Chuck - I know what you're talking about. The kids in sports have parents who are "achievers" in the community and have a bigger presence than the parents of kids in say, theater or academic programs. I watched a couple of games of our state high school hockey tournament this past week and while hockey involves "checking" and "hits", there were plenty of cheap shots taken after the whistle by different teams. I am not sure why this is part of high school sports at all where true sportsmanship and team effort is what that environment is supposed to foster - not how to deliver a sucker punch without being caught. Parents and coaches can shoulder a lot of blame here, but it is part of the culture. You can't watch a professional hockey game without expecting, or even hoping for a good gloves-off fight. It's the same reason some people watch NASCAR...to see an awesome crash.

PM NYC

Everyone is calling the "circle of boys" "witnesses" Are they not obligated to help when someone is in peril?

No. In 2005, the Supreme Court ruled the the police are not obligated to protect you. (Castle Rock v. Gonzales) Why would you think civilians are to be held to a higher standard?

Roy..........C'mon, I didn't say it was ok for the punks to rape her nor would I want my daughter assaulted if she drank too much. And, yes, I have drank too much when I was "young and foolish" but I also suffered the consequences. I find as much fault with those who failed to help the young lady as I do with those who assaulted her.

Jim in Colorado - Domestic violence is an "industry"? Explain please.

Repojam

But then, what are we doing here? Is there no one who thinks we can learn from this situation instead of only acting like the only thing we can do is be helpless victims? Why do we empower predators this way?

Chuck. When did this happen. Where, what town did this happen in. You need to contact Msnbc talk show hosts, like Maddow, Sharpton, Etc. This story needs to be brought out into the open. I have Never heard about this until now. Please get the news stations involved.

I'm a little confused on this story. Everyone is saying there are videos of the girl being raped, etc. However, every media account I've read has said that the evidence is a photo of the girl being carried out of the house by the accused and a third party saying the girl was raped. The girl says she doesn't remember anything. And before I get hopped on for blaming the victim, I'm not blaming anyone. I just want to get my facts straight before I take an opinion on the case.

Patrick Hanna, with the extensive rebutals on just this thread you are either a parent of one of the accused or on the defense team. Go prepared for your trial and stfu.

Denver Bill, when your drowning in a lake I hope someone yells flap harder, save yourself!! I am not held to any sandard to help you buddy!

Mom2five:

The victim in any case who has been drinking should share SOME of the responsibility around jocks who are also drinking. As a standout baseball player for a small town high school it Texas, I can tell you there were many times I was groped at a party by "party girls" looking to be associated with ball players for popularity. Drinking was always involved. Alcohol makes people do thinks they normally would not... then regret.

I can't believe that the chicken coop in the picture is part of a football "stadium." The practice field at either one of our local high schools is bigger than that, as is the stadium, which seats 20,000.

That little podunk facility just makes it even worse that:

a minor was given a date rape drug in retaliation for breaking up with one of the local football boys;

the local DA, a football parent, allowed liquor to be served to minors at a party for those minors;

the assistant coach of the team also served liquor to the players and other minors and allowed the unconscious girl to be raped in the house, photographed, and urinated on;

the state sent an "investigator" who is a personal client of the DA (she handled his divorce action);

the head coach has naked pictures of female students in the showers at school on his computer;

no one has been charged with failure to report a crime, which is a crime;

the girl was transported across the state line and dumped in her parents' front yard, still out from the drug she was slipped;

local law enforcement claims all the photos taken by the team, which calls itself a rape club, have been erased and can't be recovered, yet nothing that passes through a server is ever gone;

and then people have the nerve to think that the sad excuse for a football team excuses all the above.

Looking forward to federal RICO prosecutions of all local officials, as well as the FBI followup to the Mann Act. Meanwhile, I wish only ill on all the co-conspirators in town, including the Ohio State student who hoped the girl was dead on a videotape made in the house where the rapes were occurring.

Truly disgusting.

Patrick Hanna, with the extensive rebutals on just this thread you are either a parent of one of the accused or on the defense team. Go prepared for your trial and stfu

That's about the stupidest commment I've seen all day. If you are really too brain dead f*ckin stupid to see that I am defending the town and not the people who did this then maybe you should shut the f*ck up. This is a perfect example of why other people asked you if you like to assume things.

People like you are exactly why most kids are growing up now to be self-righteous spoiled brats. Why don't you crawl back in your hole.

Seven2Seven

Patrick Hanna, with the extensive rebutals on just this thread you are either a parent of one of the accused or on the defense team. Go prepared for your trial and stfu.

Wow. Trying to have a logical conversation makes him party to the trial?

Should we all jump to wild conclusions like this? Can it be my turn to next?

Patrick Hanna - good posts - well thought out - rational, well expressed.

Karl............how you can get that "take" on my statement is beyond me. I merely advocate that people (and kids) take some responsibility for their actions. Hopefully the boys who assaulted her will suffer the consequenses of their actions.

A 16 year old can purchase alcohol in Ohio??

i notice the young men are black.

A 16 year old can purchase alcohol in Ohio??

Who said that?

Most of the people above me have already made up their mind if these guys are guilty or not. Which is wrong in itself. Some of ya'll had this right, its found guilty by the media.

Right now, before the facts are known, the only thing they are guilty of is poor judgement. You don't have sex with a drunk cant remember anything person. It can and will come back to bite you.

My best friend was charged with the same thing.. Dating a girl in high school, they went out, got drunk, had sex ( their 1st time ) and when her parents found out called the cops and pressed charges for rape. It finally came out in trial that she said yes, and it was not rape, but that didn't stop everyone from thinking it was and them having to move to a different state due to trial by media.

If they assaulted her, they should be punished, but let the court of laws figure that out.. not the tabloids.

Seven2Seven

Denver Bill, when your drowning in a lake I hope someone yells flap harder, save yourself!! I am not held to any sandard to help you buddy!

I never said I wouldn't help someone in distress; only that nobody is legally obligated to do so. So I guess the answer to my question (#1.30 above) is, "Yes, I regularly make unwarranted assumptions."

Mom2Five...................I didn't say it was ok to rape anyone, drunk or sober. What I am saying is a young lady has the RIGHT to walk thru Central Park at 2:00am and she also has the RIGHT to get drunk with a bunch of football players, neither is a good idea!!!

Patrick, are you the new badger Troll? If so A+, hopefully your mommy will make you do your homework and you stop wasting time here.

for everyone that is talking about waiting to hear the facts here you go, just make sure you have a strong stomach this is the video that is being discussed that was released and if you want to know a little more just use these great things called google and youtube, then tell the world about how you want to wait for the facts etc etc, i can't post the link go to youtube and type in this "anonymous ohio steubenville" should be second video 12:29 long

@ Zach Mescher: You can embed the link in text. The embed function is between the strikethrough and unordered list buttons at the top of the text window.

I'd do it for you, but I am not sure that posting the video or links to the video would be appropriate here.

Remember how everyone was so damn sure that the Duke Lacrosse players raped that girl? Then it turned out to all be overhyper feminists and race baiters pushing for some type of twisted justice on innocent people, with a prosecutor who was fired and charged for lying. We don't know all the facts. We dont know they are guilty. People want to assume people lie about rape because that would corrupt their fantasy world.

And as Patrick Hanna said, telling women to be careful is not blaming the victim. Its this type of thinking that makes me realize some women just want to call misogyny on everything. There will always be rapists in the world. No matter how many programs we make for guys to not rape women, some always will. You know how many times I've heard not to rape girls, and no means no? Hell, when I had orientation for college, we had this whole program put on for what is considered rape. Yet guess what, some male college students raped some female college students while I was at school. So we do have to tell women to be careful. We also tell guys the same thing for girls. I was taught to always walk a girl home. I was part of a frat (no we never have had a guy rape a girl in our 80 year history at the school), and if girls left a party alone, we always offered to walk them home. My girlfriend lived clear on the other side of the campus, and if I wanted her to come over, I walked all the way over to her place to walk her to my place so she could be safe. And she wanted me to do this. Telling a woman to be more careful when she goes out, is the same thing as warning people to be careful in bad neighborhoods. Its not blaming the victim, its realizing that no matter what we do, there will always be bad people out there, and women are easier targets because they are physically weaker, therefor they have to be more careful.

where were her parents when they let their daughter go out and drink like that

TheMan - No, the victim does not share any of the blame simply by consuming alcohol. The victim wouldn't share any of the blame if she stripped naked and passed out on a pool table in the middle of the party. The only people who are to blame are the men who choose to rape someone. Your experiences with women trying to "get with" a ball player have no correlation to rape unless you chose to rape someone. Which I assume you did not.

Putting the onus of "keeping safe" on women is ridiculous. Most rapes are committed by people known to the victim: relatives, friends, even husbands/boyfriends. How should a woman "keep safe" against the people in her life? By not drinking too much? By not walking alone after dark? This isn't where the highest danger lies.

Not a single person on this thread knows if there was a rape or not. Not ONE!

Let there be a trial to see if there was.

This is no different than the Zimmermann/Martin case. NO ONE KNOWS FOR SURE!!!!

xServer,

You are right that most perps are people the victim knows, but that doesnt mean telling women to be safe is ridiculous. Random attacks on women happen all the time, and its not just rape either. Just last week outside my work, a man stopped his car, got out, punched a woman, took her iphone, got back in his car and drove away. Women are easier targets. Women need to be more vigilant because if its a woman vs a man, the man is going to win 90% of the time. Men have more of a fighting chance. Stop with your statements that clearly show you just want to be upset.

Roy Wilson said:

Perhaps she should ask "Why have these punks ruined the rape victim's life"?

I would submit the following, Social Media ruined all of their lives. This all came about because someone posted the pictures. At this point, the real question is whether this was consensual or not. That is the only real question here. I find it most disappointing most of you totally forget this girl was incredibly irresponsible drinking to the point of not remembering. Who was responsible at this party? Where were the parents? Kids of that age think they are invincible and certainly testing the limits put upon them by parents/society.

IXLR8

Patrick, are you the new badger Troll? If so A+, hopefully your mommy will make you do your homework and you stop wasting time here.

Wow. That's super mature. Do me a favor and show me where I was anything but courteous to you. Is this how you teach your kids to act?

Since you're so concerned about my personal life rather than the substance of my words, I will tell you that I am at work, as an electrical engineer, in dowtown Pittsburgh. We are all sitting around waiting for a bid package to be returned to us so we can start our mobilization on a new job. Until then, we have nothing to do and it is boring as hell. Since I work with people who live in Weirton and Steubenville, this has been a topic of interest around here.

As you apparently seem to be too blazingly stupid to understand what I have been saying, I will say it again.

1) A "cover up" does not mean that everyone who lives in Steubenville supports these guys. It doesn't even mean that anything close to a significant minority does. More likely, it means that some people who have more power than others tried to cover it up.

2) Telling your daughter that it is a good idea to keep her wits to help her avoid becoming a victim is a good idea. It is not blaming the victim, and if you think otherwise you are hopelessly ignorant.

That's about it. If you can't see through to what I am saying, then kindly p*ss off. People wonder why our country is so dysfuctional: this is why. I have tried very hard to get people to understand a point of view here, yet dumb a$$holes like yourself are only concerned with what my mother is doing. F*ckin' loser.

The facts will come out at trial. A hey should. Don't be a media idiot, you aren't getting the fact anyway. Mot of the merits or he case are not in the public domain for examination yet. After the trial, then the facts will be known. If these idiots did what they are accused of they belong behind bars. If they are being tried as juveniles, they had no business with alcohol. Therefore anyone who knowingly provided it to them, sold it to them or gave it to them should be charged and when convicted jailed also.

I wonder about their upbringing if they were so willing to take advantage of an intoxicated girl. But that's another matter. And please spare me the "peer Pressure" horse crap. If they did this, they made a choice, one they should pay for.

One of the issues with rape cases, unfortunately, is it is dependent on consent and intent. This is only discernible during the actual event and makes the case wholly dependent on witness testimony. A rape trial may be centered around a victim who has remorse over actions he/she willingly participated in or a misunderstanding of consent by the accused. I do not defend the actions of these boys but neither do I condemn them to guilt of rape until the story (i.e. a trial is held) is fully developed.

Regardless of the rape case, these kids all behaved in a way that is dangerous to them and some issues need to be addressed in light of this case. I work with high school kids. With their lack of experience and the state of their development, the impairment of alcohol will create these kind of tragic situations. I do hope justice is served if the boys are guilty but the broader issues that allowed this situation to occur can be addressed immediately without a trial and are much more transparent.

Its the Sports Star mentality. I can do anything I want, I am a star. It is especially true of football players. Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback is a perfect example.

It is one thing to tell young women that getting so drunk you don't know what you're doing, etc, isn't a good idea. And maybe then using this incident as an example of that.

It is another if, after the fact, you decide to tell the young woman she "should have been more careful".

Patrick Hannah defends USA1967 with.

'Karl, where do you get that? To begin with, USA1967 said that he/she does not condone what they did.'

This rather feeble justification is usually followed by a - but (insert reason to blame the victim here), or in another common variation - "Some of my friends are black."

There is just one simple rule here. You don't get to rape her. No matter what. If she's really drunk. You don't get to rape her. If she got run over by a car and is lying unconscious in the road, you don't get to rape her. In most States, if she is under 18, she cannot give consent, even if she gives consent. You don't get to have sex with her drunk, sober, living or dead.

If you wish to accuse the media of trying them, at least be accurate. The made a video and made it public. The media that is trying them is of their own creation. They will likely spend the rest of their lives notifying the local police that they are registered sex offenders.

Mr. Burns - Just out of curiousity, how would that woman have been able to keep herself safe from attack? Suit of armor? Hired bodyguard? Drawn weapon out at all times?

Listen, I understand that behavior can at times expose you to greater risk. BUT that doesn't mean that there is a way to keep women safe through their own efforts. Therefore, putting the onus on women is misguided. Change needs to be made to attitudes towards violence in our society (sexual and otherwise) as well as raising the status of women so that a drunk girl is not seen as prime meat but as a human being in trouble.

Also, I think that everyone needs to keep in mind that these boys are not guilty until they are proven to be guilty. Once they are found guilty then the discussion about them and what took place that night can be had but right now it is conjecture and assumption. My comments are general to rape and violence against women, not this particular case as I don't know what happened. I am glad that it is being investigated, I am glad that there will be a trial but until that trial is concluded keep in mind that making up your mind now is completely unfair.

The party was held at the football coach's home. One can assume the alcohol was provided by the coach, or the coach looked the other way when the party-goers brought the alcohol in. Either way, I hope this "coach" is not only fired but held accountable as well.

There is just one simple rule here. You don't get to rape her. No matter what

That's just great, Ray. We can tell our daughters that they are safe because Ray said that boys don't get to rape them. That's a great plan you have there.

At what point is it okay to talk about how to prevent these things from happening? At what point can we, as parents, discuss what we might do to help stop these things? Would it have been better if USA said a few prayers and cut himself some before he questioned the other factors in this? At what point would you have been satisfied that he doesn't think they had a goddamn right to do what they did? If words aren't enough to convince you of that, what would be?

xserver , Mr Burns did not say that the onus should be on women. He said that there are things that women can do to lower the likelihood of rape happening. Do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? Do you look both ways before crossing the street, even if you are in a cross walk? Do you wear a helmet when you ride a bicycle or a motorcycle? No one, especially not Mr. Burns, is saying that women are the only people responsible for their own safety. But to leave your safety totally in the hands of another is about the stupidest thing anyone could possibly do.

IXLR8

Patrick, you are like an @ss boil, the harder you rub the redder and more irritable it gets. LOL, go ahead and continue to spew more drool and still don't get it with several guiding you. Duh............

Just like I said before, you're a f*ckin loser. That hasn't changed. I happen to see quite a few people agreeing with me, dipsh*t. Why don't you go back to jacking off to my mom like you were before and leave me the hell alone.

(sigh) Gotta love them Friday Night Lights.

(yep, sarcasm)

Patrick - I never accused Mr Burns of putting the onus on women. I actually made that comment before Mr. Burns' comment. I think that society at large does put the onus for being safe from rape on women by stating that there are things that they can and should do to avoid rape. My point was that most women are raped by people they know, not random strangers. So any discussion which focuses on what women could/should do to be safe is not focusing on the right end of the problem. The way to stop rapists is to stop inculcating Americans with the idea that violence is OK. That violence is warranted. That taking something because you can is valid.

This change would decrease the number of rapes by far more than women travelling in groups, not drinking to excess and not flirting with men they don't know. It would also help positively impact the lives of men (who are disproportionately the victims of random physical attacks of a non-sexual nature) which I think we can all agree would be an incredible, awesome thing.

xserver, I agree that we need to focus on changing the attitudes of these people. But I don't think that we should ignore the other side of it.... that there are people out there who simply are predators and that women need to take action to protect themselves from them. I'm not a small guy, I'm 6'2" and just under 200 pounds, and I carry a gun everywhere I go. I'm not trusting what anyone else does or has been taught to ensure my safety. I've carried a gun for fifteen years and have never pulled it. But that doesn't mean I'm just going to stop doing it tomorrow because the government or someone else tells me I don't need to be vigilant about my safety any more.

"I've carried a gun for fifteen years and have never pulled it. But that doesn't mean I'm just going to stop doing it tomorrow because the government or someone else tells me I don't need to be vigilant about my safety any more."

Me & my .38 snub-nosed agree with this statement; Although I haven't carried for fifteen years-yet.

Unless you're driving, getting drunk isn't a crime...

Maybe. If you are 16, getting drunk is a crime since it is unlawful for minors to consume alcohol, just as it is illegal to provide minors alcohol.

denver bill 2 Comment collapsed by the community

It took 11 days for prosecutors to charge anyone in the case, and victims' and women's groups have questioned why none of the teens who are said to have witnessed Mays and Richmond allegedly attack the girl have been arrested.

Maybe because it's not illegal to be a witness?

It is obvious that you know nothing of law; if you did you would know that it is in fact a crime if you watch a crime be committed and choose not to say anything. You are a conspirator at that point in the eyes of the law. I don’t know why he has not been arrested the prosecutor should be brought up on charges for that.

This is why America is in a downwards spiral because too often people choose not to speak up about heinous crimes/actions. Then they believing that it is ok that they did not speak up and they should bear no consciences from not saying anything. I say you make an example out of the kid that saw it and you give him just as much time if not more than the guys that rapped the girl. Why give him more time because it is far worse to watch this act and choose to be a coward by not saying anything. Too many people today think that they have no obligation to say anything these people should be jailed for life as they are the problem in today’s society. My good does the kid that watched have a mother or a sister. If dumb was a crime you would be in jail for your uneducated post.

Patrick - I don't carry a gun. I've never wanted to; I see carrying a gun with me as a capitulation to fear and an admission that society has no value. If my only option is to arm myself in every instance then I've already lost. As have we all.

I certainly don't condone the actions of the guys but maybe a 16 yr old girl shouldn't get so drunk she doesn't know what is going on.

Blame the rape victim. Always a classy move. I suppose it's OK for us guys to get that drunk am I right?!?!

"I've already lost. As have we all."

I can't disagree with this statement as I think that we R all ♪♫Going 2 Hell in a bucket, baby♪♫ but consider this statement:

When seconds count, the cops R only minutes away.

xserver:

The victim wouldn't share any of the blame if she stripped naked and passed out on a pool table in the middle of the party

Did you really just say that.... I'm sure a jury would disagree with you.

Also no boy of a high school chess club has ever been accused of rapping a girl at a chess club party that I know of... We can't take accountability out of our young women's lives and expect others to turn away when alcohol is involved. Courts rule on this daily... She should not have been in that very vulnerable state she was in. Not excluding the boys of responsibility just outlining the laws of accountability.

U don't say - I wish I could find it but I recall reading a study that said that people who own guns for their own defence more often have that gun used against them than are successful in their efforts to defend themselves. So one's chances of holding someone off with a gun are less likely than people assume.

Patrick.

Sorry bud, but being reasonable in this type of forum may only net you some gray hairs.

Also, awesome name, I'm a Patrick as well.

Anyway, closer to the topic....

Mr. Burns - Just out of curiousity, how would that woman have been able to keep herself safe from attack? Suit of armor? Hired bodyguard? Drawn weapon out at all times?

Uh, really? How about, not go to a party loaded down with adolesences going through the worst hormone dump in their life along with alcohol? If she didn't go the party, she wouldn't have gotten raped. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Her parents should have asked her where she was going. Her parents should have said "Hell no you can't go to that party." She shouldn't have gotten wasted. Granted, even if she didn't drink, their might have been a chance that she would have gotten raped, but nowhere near has much of one.

You don't blame rape victims, and I agree on that. You can still review the circumstances on how the rape occurred, and learn from that. If you don't learn from it, you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.

This is not the first time teenage athletes took advantage of an unconcious girl. This won't be the last. This won't be the last time people point fingers at the culprits and shout "Off with their heads!! No trial, no jury! Straight to execution!" This won't be the last time some girl goes to a party, drinks whatever is put in front of her until she doesn't even know what way is up, and ends up having sex with who knows who. We don't want to blame her for her very poor choices, but the fact is, her choices landed her there. Just like the boys' choices put them between her legs when they damn sure knew she wasn't aware of what's going on.

Should they have raped her? Hell no. Should she have even been there? Hell no. Long list of stupid decisions that have gone on in this article, and only the boys seem to be getting the heat for their indescretions.

Ah yes, so I see int he first 20 posts that the ratings crazed media has already whipped the mindless masses up into a frenzied lynch mob.... Shocker!!!

1. the boys are innocent until PROVEN Guilty, no amount of mindless mass lynch mob mentality will make me think otherwise. I will leave that call to the jury of peers actually presented with real facts, not the stupid opinionated fools who play jury online.

2 The girl should simply never have drunk so much she could not even utter the word 'No' however, and I will use small words for the masses, Being drunk does not excuse others bad behavior toward you, much as you are not exempt from bad behavior because you are drunk.

3. Clearly there is an adult or liquor store clerk who needs to have there butt handed to them for supplying the booze for this party, to leave that part out is also a miscarriage of justice.

@xServer,

Good Afternoon!

"I recall reading a study that said that people who own guns for their own defence more often have that gun used against them than are successful in their efforts to defend themselves."

That would B unfortunate 4 the person who owns a gun but doesn't know how 2 use it/handle it properly.

Not only did I take the required gun course, I use the shooting range at least once a month so I can stay sharp.

xserver:

By the way... the victim said she didn't remember anything. kind of a vulnerable state to be in around high school boys influenced by the same "drug"... kinda makes saying "NO" a bit harder.

TheMan - yes, I really did just say that. And if a jury is made up of people who realize that consent is required in all instances, even when a woman is drunk, even when a woman is dressed in skimpy clothing, even when a woman goes to a hotel room with a man and changes her mind about sex (thereby rescinding consent) then the ruling will be that the rapist is at fault. Not the woman.

It is despicable to me that you feel that attaching blame to the victim and demanding that she "take responsibility for her actions" is a valid response to rape. If she didn't give outright consent, loud and clear, then no one has the right to touch her. Naked, drunk or walking through a bad neighborhood alone it is still rape, it's still illegal and all blame goes to the man who chose to assault her.

xserver,

Ok do you think a woman who gets drunk and strips naked on a pool table should be charged with a crime?

For xServer. You asked for the best way for her to avoid that particular attack. It would have most likely been to avoid drinking to the point of passing out.

Also, particularly when alcohol is involved, judgement is impaired and what someone would normally do often changes. How much alcohol was consumed by the individuals accused of the attack? You may think that the problem lies in them thinking taking something is ok. You may also think that changing that attitude will make the most difference. However, when alcohol is involved, such thoughts often go out the window. So, it could be argued that even if you could change some fundamental attitudes people have regarding situations, it won't make much of a difference because their attitudes change when intoxicated. We could also argue that some individual's attitudes can't be changed no matter how much you believe it can regardless of their intoxication state.

I would argue that violence is extremely entertaining to society and will never be removed from popular culture. Take box office hits, action films, video games etc. You're unlikely to change the idea that violence is entertaining. Society has been trying for some time to get the idea out that "no means no", "rape with alcohol is still rape" "violence against (insert group here) is bad", etc. As many have already pointed out, college campuses, highschools, etc. go over such policies. So, how would you propose to change the minds of individuals who believe that they can take things through violence? I don't think you're going to be able to make much more progress then what has already been done with regards to this. With that being said, I don't see anything wrong with teaching a person that various actions increase your chance of something bad happening and that if you take a different set of actions, you're less likely to have a bad outcome.

Let's change the scenario a bit. Let's say that instead of a rape, we have a robbery. Now let's also say that someone drank to the point of passing out with $100 bills in their wallet in a neighborhood with a high crime rate. Would you feel as much sympathy for them as someone who is the victim of a break-in? Or, would you justify having less sympathy by thinking they did something extremely stupid? Let's now say that you have a similar amount of sympathy for both people. Would you tell the first person to avoid drinking to the point of passing out, to take a friend with them if they go to the bar, and call a taxi instead of walking home? Finally, would you argue with someone that is saying that the first person should be told to not drink as heavily, take a friend with them, and call a taxi; but rather tell that someone that it's the acceptance of violence in society that caused them to be robbed?

Take the logic of your argument and apply it to an altered situation without extreme emotions to see if the logic still holds. If it does, you're good. If it doesn't, then you need to determine if there is a fundamental difference between the situations outside of the emotions attached to it or if there is a flaw in your logic.

xServer

Patrick - I don't carry a gun. I've never wanted to; I see carrying a gun with me as a capitulation to fear and an admission that society has no value. If my only option is to arm myself in every instance then I've already lost. As have we all.

Xserver,

I am going to have to go ahead and disagree on this one. Unless you are just afraid of guns and find them icky, then there is no help for you. I have never carried a gun either, I do not see the need and if I did I would likely remove myself form the situation in which the need existed, however a gun is simply a tool, a tool of last resort shall we say.

Perhaps if more people cared enough to get involved, and got involved with the tools needed to actually make the situation better as opposed to just getting in the way the world could be a better

If we are to assume society has a value then it is worth fighting for, and sometimes fighting for something requires force, when that happens the right tool for the job can make a big difference.

Not sure how that fits into this thread but, your comment was a bit too odd to let slide uncontested.

Armadi - please note that my question to Mr. Burns was related to an instance where a woman was attacked and robbed walking down the sidewalk in front of her workplace. So your comments are misdirected.

Please also see my reasoning regarding where a woman is at highest risk of rape (in her home/at the home of a friend/at the home of a family member) - protecting herself from friends, husbands/boyfriends/family members would be required if a true "dent" in the numbers of rape would be possible.

TheMan - I don't know what happened between these boys and the girl in question. I am not speaking to this specific case. But if the girl was so drunk that she doesn't remember anything, if the pictures and video show the truth (a girl passed out and taken advantage of when consent wasn't even possible while the men in question were coherent enough to film and take pictures) then I absolutely maintain my position. And again, I am horrified that you keep trying to apportion blame to the victim.

As guilty as the young guys are, she owns part of this too. Getting that drunk is like walking blind folded over an interstate during rush hour. It's a bad world out there, and you can't let your guard down like that. While she is the victim here, she is a stupid victim. If she continues down this path, it won't be long before her next crisis.

Here's an interesting perspective, it is being said that she was too drunk to say no. Is it possible that the boys were too drunk to NOT say no? We all know what our base urges tell us to do, and that young boys have a lot of them, so I wonder if intoxication is an excuse for them as well?

Did they simply lose control, like her, and do things that were not within their control? If so, are they innocent, like her?

Have fun with my comments......

But she still has to take responsibility for her actions! She shouldn't hold any blame legally, of course, but she has to know that doing stupid sh*t results in consequences. Even if the consequences are going to parties all the time and getting drunk will get her alcoholism and poor grades.

She put herself in a very precarious position, and these guys took advantage of that.

If I were in a situation with a girl too doped up to do anything or say no, I'd do everything in my power to remove her from the situation, so nothing would happen to her. I find abhorrence in rape, and I won't stand for it or standby if it were to happen around me. Doesn't mean that the girl should be doing this to herself.

It's despicable to think it's ok for a girl to put herself in very compromising situations. It is not ok for her to throw all logic out the window, and blame another party for doing the same thing.

For Bill.

That depends on the laws in the state, the type of crime, and whether the state has a "good Samaritan". You would also need to prove that the person witnessed the crime actually knew it was a crime and had the mental acuity to know it was a crime. This isn't always an easy task. Would you argue someone highly intoxicated even knows what they witnessed let alone if they could judge if what they witnessed was actually a crime? Hence the difficulty with such things. It's very easy to watch a video and make a judgement about what a witness might know, could know, or should know. It's very different when you're in the actual situation likely drinking.

Four or five years (tops) for raping a girl is not enough, but it's better than nothing.

xServer is right: "..even when a woman is drunk, even when a woman is dressed in skimpy clothing, even when a woman goes to a hotel room with a man and changes her mind about sex (thereby rescinding consent)..." a jury with any sense of justice should convict the guy who victimized her.

Sex is not a "right", and one of the most chilling statements I ever heard was from a retired NYC cop who said of rape, "You women have what we want and you won't give it to us." I told him guys had no right to use someone else's body without their willing consent - and took care to avoid the idiot until we moved out of his neighborhood. CREEEEEPY.

TheMan - yes, I do believe a woman who strips naked in a public place and passes out on a pool table should be charged with a crime if it is illegal to do so in that jurisdiction. I believe public indecency would be a likely charge as would public intoxication. But I don't believe that anyone would be excused from 100% blame if they raped her while she was naked and passed out. Performing an illegal act does not mean that you are "owed" or "have brought on" resprisal in the form of another illegal act being perpatrated against you.

in the middle. Interesting interpretation. This goes towards the question of which actions can have the responsibility removed through excessive alcohol consumption. For the boys, the argument would go that they chose to consume the alcohol and are responsible for their actions. If we remove the emotion attached to rape, can the same be said of her?

Let's change the scenario. A person comes out of a bar and passes out. Their wallet is removed. They could have not drank as much, had a friend drive them home, or called a taxi. Do they share in some of the responsibility of what happened to them? If you're answer is yes to this but no to the rape case, then I would argue that you need to demonstrate how the cases are fundamentally different. If they're not, then you're attaching an emotional state to a problem. This often results in logically inconsistent results.

It's ok, Chris. We will have 2 just "agree 2 disagree" when it comes 2 the anti-gun people.

There is a line in this country; A person is either intimidated by things they R afraid of or they R not. The first group, is going 2 B in "a world of hurt" when our next Civil War comes (and it's coming, people). These will B the people crying out 4 help from the police or government but that help won't B there.

Armadi - please note that my question to Mr. Burns was related to an instance where a woman was attacked and robbed walking down the sidewalk in front of her workplace. So your comments are misdirected.

My apologies then =P

About what you said, though: I worked at Sears a while back as a Loss Prevention associate. We were routinely told that women should not walk to their cars by themselves. If they could not find someone to walk with, one of us Loss Prevention guys would walk with them. I know women cannot always have someone there to walk with them, and honestly, they shouldn't have to. People shouldn't see a lone woman and attack her. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where it's safe to walk alone.

Hell, I'm 6'3" and about 240 ish (depending on donut/cheeseburger intake >.>) and there are some streets I don't walk down.

in the middle - If these boys actually did film the instance and take photos I would hypothesise that they were in control enough of their bodies and minds to NOT rape someone. And overconsumption of alcohol is not a legal defense. Murder someone while drunk and you are still guilty of murdering them and will be found guilty accordingly (if the jury is sane and reasonable).

patrick, you lost loser boy, so smdb. Better luck next time xxoo..........

Bill1488

denver bill 2

This is why America is in a downwards spiral because too often people choose not to speak up about heinous crimes/actions. Then they believing that it is ok that they did not speak up and they should bear no consciences from not saying anything. I say you make an example out of the kid that saw it and you give him just as much time if not more than the guys that rapped the girl. Why give him more time because it is far worse to watch this act and choose to be a coward by not saying anything. Too many people today think that they have no obligation to say anything these people should be jailed for life as they are the problem in today’s society. My good does the kid that watched have a mother or a sister. If dumb was a crime you would be in jail for your uneducated post.

Bill I am really going to have to disagree on this one, I am really hoping that is just an emotion fueled knee jerk reaction and not a strongly held belief. Of course if not your ilk would suggest that maybe I am the problem but, the way I read your post is that you see no difference between raping someone and not getting stopping or reporting it. You call it cowardly, and it may be, either get involved one way or the other si what you are saying right???

Sure we would all love it if everyone would help each other out and the bad guys were always out numbered 10 to 1 but that is really a bit pie in the ski-ish... If you try enforcing stupidity like that then why would more people not get involved on the bad side, after all if you will be forced to do the time you may as well AT LEAST do the crime... Seems like you are trying to justify a nanny state and rebellion is human nature, I think you would create more problems then you solve.

For xServer. I don't think many people here are claiming that the individuals that perpetrated the attack should be excused because of possible responsibility that the girl has with regards to putting herself in that particular situation.

Now, you may have some claiming that the intoxication state of the boys may reduce culpability, but that's an entirely separate issue.

What I've seen is that people are arguing that this girl should have not put herself in this situation and that if someone thinks that it's ok for them to put themselves in such a situation, they should be informed of the statistics for those that do put themselves in such a situation. Rape discussions in college, highschool, workplace, etc. should not only include "No means no", but also include "Think about your actions before you do them". Many still do not.

Jamie-3757870

Four or five years (tops) for raping a girl is not enough, but it's better than nothing.

They get a lot more than that. If they are convicted, they get the registry. Which pretty much means a lifetime of punishment. That is another topic all together though....

xserver:

Please believe me... At no time do I ever condone what happened to this girl, or am I in a position to assert blame. My whole point is... Every day we inform our women of different ways to protect themselves, either by self defense classes or tips to be safe in dark parking lots. This is no different. I drink, but not much, I haven't been drunk in years. Three weeks ago I was a the BBQ Rodeo cookoff here in Houston, I was walking with two of my female friends when a young drunk girl came up behind me and grabbed my butt... I turned around and watched her fall to the ground laughing the whole time. She was clearly drunk and I could have taken advantage of her. I would never have but I easily could have. Yes I put blame on that girl for being in the state she was in and behaving that way.

doggysayswhat - I understand risk avoidance but I really think that in the question of rape people are missing the point. Women experience rape in far greater instances from the following people: friends, family members, boyfriends/husband than they do random strangers at a bar/party/dark alley. So telling women to take precautions will not stop or even greatly reduce the numbers of rapes. To do that, we need to address the issue of violence and the attitude of sex as a right.

Maybe the Judge will do something unique in this case!

Since this was a Victory Party played out by the Football players who are underage and too immature to be responsible for their actions------possibly the Judge can ban Football in this small town. Use the school for educational endeavors but ban Football for a minimum of 5 years.

IF the Football team has so much status and the players get such privledges than banning such would have a positive effect on the community---whereby they will support ALL of the town's people not just the Football players!

TheMan-1285490

Please believe me... At no time do I ever condone what happened to this girl, or am I in a position to assert blame.

I have yet to see one person actually make that argument outside of a troll.

No one is going "Oh, so she got drunk and got raped? Well tough for her, let's throw the case out."

That argument doesn't exist, so let's please all stop acting like it does.

TheMan-1285490

Maybe you are to blame for having a nice ass...if your butt was flabby and saggy, it wouldn't have invited unsolicited contact of the inebriated kind.

Armaadi,

I accept SOME of the blame :) but please tell me you understand my point.

What the hell is wrong with people who think it's fun to take advantage of a woman/girl when she's that intoxicated? Even if she's "willing" what sort of enjoyment do you derive out that?

I was young. I drank. I partied with girls who also drank. But if either party was too intoxicated to fully enjoy it, we didn't do it.

These kids need to be kicked in the nuts, regardless.

I understand it. I just..had to make the joke.

Repojam:

I don't understand your response because I'm not condoning the rape, and until you can communicate without calling a poster with a valid point a "troll" I'll refrain from responding to you.

Bill1488

It is obvious that you know nothing of law; if you did you would know that it is in fact a crime if you watch a crime be committed and choose not to say anything. You are a conspirator at that point in the eyes of the law. I don’t know why he has not been arrested the prosecutor should be brought up on charges for that.

Since your knowledge of the law supposedly is much more vast than mine, I am sure you will admit there is a huge difference between being a conspirator (who helps plot a crime) and a witness (who observes a crime). Most jurisdictions are reluctant to make "failure to report" a crime (except in cases like a mother who is an accessory to crime because she fails to report her boyfriend for beating her child). They do so because of justified fear that such a law would be used to prosecute your neighbor for failure to report, for instance, you for mumbling threats about the mayor.

Conspiracy, and "aiding and abetting" require acts to be a crime. Some jurisdictions make "misprision of a felony" a criminal act. I'm sure with your superior legal knowledge you can tell me if the State of Ohio or Johnson County are among them.

@TheMan,

"a young drunk girl came up behind me and grabbed my butt"

DAWG! R U braggin' 'bout havin' a nice butt??? :-P

xserver:

To do that, we need to address the issue of violence and the attitude of sex as a right.

I agree with everything you just said... But you do know that rape is an act of violence not sex, correct?

TheMan - I think that we can all agree that getting drunk is usually a bad idea for a wide variety of reasons. And I am thrilled to hear that you don't condone rape. I think the problem/miscommunication comes into play when the words "blame" and "take responsibility" are used in association with a rape victim's actions. Just something to think about.

And with that I am actually going to try to get some work done. Interesting discussion, whether I agree with the various posters or not.

TheMan-1285490

I don't understand your response because I'm not condoning the rape, and until you can communicate without calling a poster with a valid point a "troll" I'll refrain from responding to you.

You Misunderstood. I'll try this again.

Is ANYONE. Any ONE SINGLE PERSON suggesting that because she was drunk that we should let these boys off the hook?

No. No one is. Not one person.

However, over the history of this conversation, people have had to repeatedly clarify and many have even been accused of "blaming the victim" by merely suggesting she did not help the situation by getting drunk past the point of sobriety or possible consent.

The only people who have been saying "Oh, she was drunk, so it's all her fault and lets do nothing about these boys" are the ones who are trolls. There shouldn't need to be any "I'm not condoning what these boys did..." type statements. None. No one is condoning rape in this conversation.

I know everyone is going to explode over this but it should be said:

Pre-text: I do not condone these actions nor feel that they were justified in any way. Also, alcohol is a scapegoat for people that lack natural self-control.

Here we go: The issue I have here is that the video has now become public knowledge and apparently wide spread for all to see. As a result, most courts would typically agree, it should now be considered inadmissable evidence because it removes the right to a fair trial for the boys. While their actions are reprehensible, they are still entitled to a fair trial as guaranteed by our Constitution.

Next: They are claiming that the alcohol consumption of the girl directly contributed to a diminished mental capacity and inability to consent or not. If this argument was to hold true, I myself have "blacked out" many times strictly from drinking in college, then the males should be able to argue the same mental incapacity to determine smart judgment relative to my next point. (I don't agree with it, but that is the truth of the matter)

Third: The one boy was claimed to have previously dated the victim. I foresee the argument of pre-determined consent being thrown into this case although it should be disqualified due to mental impairment. We'll see if that happens.

Finally: Chuck, what the hell does political affiliation have anything to do with this case? Also, I'm not saying you made that whole story up but I'm almost positive you made that whole story up. The reason you "won't find it in the news" is most likely because it never happened. It's fun to get everyone worked up on message boards but I think you were probably looking for one that said "Obama" or "GOP" in the headline.

I hope that the truth comes out and that, if necessary, those responsible are JUSTLY punished. As much as the media has already condemned them, in the country I reside currently, we are innocent until proven guilty. I understand the bias that takes place in sports towns, but that alone will not usurp the justice system of this country. That's what politicans are for! (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

xServer

I understand the majority of rape comes from those you know. In fact, the majority of any sexual assault comes from friends family. What can anyone do to limit that? And more significantly, how do you limit that while also having an acceptable/active sexual life? If you keep everyone at arms distance, or even 10ft pole distance, you'll never have enjoyable sex. Period. Which means people have to actively think about what situations they are in...even at home. That uncle's eyes linger too much on you? You need to not be alone with him.

Please don't think I'm attacking you or anything, I'm not trying to. Your point of where most of the sexual assault takes place just made me think about what could be done about that, too.

Besides even if the chances at home are greater, you can still protect your self from instances that are less likely.

Rape is rape, doesn't matter if drunk, high, asleeep, whatever... They were stupid enough to put it out there for the whole world to see, so not only were they stupid but proud of it as well. Hope they are all put in jail and given the lifetime brand of being a sex offender, if a jury decides they are guilty. And to everyone out there who says it is illegal to get drunk at 16,,, well, your wrong. It is illegal to be drunk in public, or drunk and driving at 16. Not drunk at home or at another home. However, it is illegal for someone to give a 16 year old alcohol. And yes there is a such thing as the good samaritan law, and in that law a person is not to do anything knowingly that could cause another person harm or have the potential to cause another person harm.

And to Patrick... You are beating a dead horse dude. You have said the same thing over and over.

RepoJam:

So why are you coming down on me? I'm one of the people stating:

she did not help the situation by getting drunk past the point of sobriety or possible consent.

I think you need to re-read all my posts here.

TheMan-1285490

So why are you coming down on me? I'm one of the people stating:

she did not help the situation by getting drunk past the point of sobriety or possible consent.

I think you need to re-read all my posts here.

I've read them. The reason I specifically targetted your statement was twofold. One, because you stated you don't condone what these boys did. Two, because you stated she didn't help the situation.

What I didn't want to see was someone say "Oh, because TheMan-1285490 said that she didn't help the situation by getting so drunk, he supports what these boys did" or see someone come at you with that pathetic "Oh, so because TheMan-1285490 mentioned she didn't need to be so drunk, he is blaming the victim."

No one is making the argument that this was okay. No one. And honestly the phrase "I'm not condoning what these boys did...." shouldn't need to be used in a discussion like this. Ever. I know we're all throwing it out there so we don't sound like we're cheering these boys on, but I doubt you can find a single supporter of those boys actions in any of the people who have posted here, even if many have been accused of it.

That's the argument I was stating that NO ONE is making. I just saw the frame of your post inviting the next nimrod to say "Oh, look at this guy, he's blaming the victim and cheering these boys on!"

Repojam:

"I'm not condoning what these boys did...." shouldn't need to be used in a discussion like this.

neither does calling someone a "troll"

Legality of drinking underage varies from state to state:

That is (mostly) irrelevant. There is a huge lack of parental involvment here, and even if it is legal for them to drink without adult supervision on a private residence that doesn't sell alchohol, it is illegal to supply alcohol to minors everywhere isn't it? Even if the kids weren't breaking the law, the adults were.

Teens should not consume alcohol. When I was that age, I didn't make the best decisions in the world, and drinking only made my 'great ideas' worse.

There needs to be some adult arrests made in this situation as well as the two boys. Parents should share in the responsibility of went down here.

armaadi...

BINGO!

Armaadi

There needs to be some adult arrests made in this situation as well as the two boys. Parents should share in the responsibility of went down here.

As much as I would like to agree on this, it's hard to.

Let's assume this happened in your home while you weren't present and your kids got into your liquor.
Do you deserve to be arrested?

Now, if adults were knowingly providing alcohol to a minor, then I'll agree wholeheartedly. I certainly hope that adults weren't providing the alcohol and present at the party where this occurred.

For xserver. But, this situation wasn't a case of a rape from someone at home or close to her. This was a situation of rape by individuals at a party where alcohol and heavy intoxication was involved. People aren't saying that she shares some responsibility because she was raped by someone she knew, they're saying that she shared responsibility because of her behavior with regards to alcohol consumption. Those are two different situations.

I have a higher chance of getting dying from cancer in my 80s then I do of getting into a car accident. That doesn't mean I should ignore the increased chance of death if I don't wear a seat-belt.

Ok, my last joke bombed; Let's try another.....

Am I the only 1 here with a Led Zeppelin tune running through their head?

♪♫I got a woman stay drunk all the time......♪♫

That's a good point, but I can control where my alcohol is and teach my kids that they shouldn't touch it. I don't have kids mind you, and if they end up anything like me and/or my wife, I'll need the best luck in the world to make them do anything, heh.

I can make sure there isn't a party going on under my nose, however. I can take steps to prevent this from happening with my kids. The new generation of parents these days think that having a kid shouldn't distract from their social life. They think they should be friends with their kids instead of parents, and they can leave their kids home alone for long periods of time.

At least one of my parents were almost always home. The only times where I was home alone was right after school, and when they went to dinner. That was only an hour or two at the most, and it rarely occurred. No where near time enough to get acohol and a bunch of people over. Even if I did make all that happen, I'm pretty sure it would never happen again. I'd be chained to a pole downstairs in the basement the next time they went out =/...

There are some things that are out of a parent's control, you are very right about that, but can you honestly tell me that no significant adults knew what was going on here?

"I don't have kids mind you, and if they end up anything like me and/or my wife, I'll need the best luck in the world to make them do anything, heh."

(snicker)

Armaadi

There are some things that are out of a parent's control, you are very right about that, but can you honestly tell me that no significant adults knew what was going on here?

Armaadi, I cut this part out because the answer to this question first is "I hope not. I really do." If adults were there and nothing was done to stop it, and they knew about it... the idea of that makes me ill. If any adults knew what were going on and particularly if they were present and supplied the alcohol, they may have a long term stay at the Crossbar Inn.... deservedly so.

Now, on to the other part. You can teach your kids not to drink, not to party at your house, not to do any of it. You can teach them that, but if they break it and an incident happens like this one that we are discussing, do you feel you should be criminally liable? This isn't an issue of teaching. The suggestion that if adults were not present that they need to be arrested and could possibly be criminally liable is a different question altogether, especially if they were not present.

Now, on to the other part. You can teach your kids not to drink, not to party at your house, not to do any of it. You can teach them that, but if they break it and an incident happens like this one that we are discussing, do you feel you should be criminally liable? This isn't an issue of teaching. The suggestion that if adults were not present that they need to be arrested and could possibly be criminally liable is a different question altogether, especially if they were not present.

I don't know to tell you the truth. They should really only be criminally liable if they knew there was a party with alcohol involved, and they still let or encouraged their children to go. I don't think they should be held accountable necessarily for the rape. Now, if a parent was there, knew about the sex and didn't do anything about it? Or if a parent received some call/text about what was going down and did nothing? Maybe? I don't know. No way to tell how that could be lawfully enforced without a huge violation of privacy.

U don't say-3994780

I'm serious, lol. My wife's argument prowess is enhanced by her being a woman and she was a competivite speaker in high school that went to state. If we have a daughter that takes after her, I'll be in the corner wondering wtf I did wrong...

"I'm serious, lol."

I'm sure U R, but it was still funny. lol

I'm outta here, Dawgs & Dawgettes.

Have a good 1!

Armaadi:

If we have a daughter that takes after her, I'll be in the corner wondering wtf I did wrong...

huge LOL :) If and when you do have a daughter... Keep her safe and lead her straight... there are crazies out there!

Just on the news, these animals raped her then PEED all over her kicking her like a toy for further humiliation. It amazes me the number of people who say she had a part in this and/or have their head up a righteous @ss. It is all on film, the internet age will easily lock these monsters up with a sexual predator label for life. Defend that with your twists, I am done with this thread. Period.

For Seven. Attempting to use Righteous indignation doesn't change the basis of your argument or the basis of the argument you oppose.

Seven2Seven,

No one is defending what they did. Not a single person.

I don't get the people who say that "oh she should have been more careful, but telling someone to be more careful doesn't mean it's their fault". Those statements simply don't make sense to me. When you say something like "she shouldn't have been drinking", you are indirectly implying that she IS at fault, whether it's a little amount of fault or a lot of fault. By saying that you are implying that had she not drank alcohol (IF she did... I'll get to that in a second), she wouldn't have been raped, therefore she is at fault. It just puzzles me how people can say something accusatory and then say they're not accusing her. Can you imagine how she might feel if she reads comments like that? Talk about pouring salt on an open wound.

As for the alcohol bit, wasn't it reported earlier that she had been slipped a date rape drug? I'm seeing comments on here that repeat that as well. If that part is true then maybe she was intoxicated from that and not from alcohol. She could have been drinking something non-alcoholic and not realized it was spiked until it was too late.

I also find it interesting how many people are going "innocent until proven guilty, don't judge, etc.", despite the fact that there is photographic and video evidence of these monsters doing what they did. It's kind of hard to apply that logic here when the evidence is staring you in the face.

This is just a real sad case, and the fact that the people of this town are ignorant to it is a real sign of the times. I see stories like this, and all of the rape and domestic violence jokes that have become popular recently, and I can't help but feel like we are becoming a society that supports those horrible acts. I'm probably going to get some crap for bringing up the joke thing, with responses that I should lighten up and that "they're just jokes", but keep this in mind: these rapists made rape jokes too.

I would be embarrassed to come from "Stupidville". Small football mind mentality. I guess those kids can't do anything else. Duh, I'm a jock from Stupidville.

repojam, you don't read very well. look through the 150 comments above. There are many examples.

Excellent post AmayaB, you nailed it and really added alot to the discussion. Thanks!

There are so many holes in this story. If she was raped, then there should be justice done. If she was just embarassed because this got around, then there should be other charges filed. However, in recent years, yelling rape is has been like yelling wolf. I get skeptical, so I'd like to see more information. And I am sure it will come in due time.

Seven2Seven:

Ok First of all, your last post made me sick to my stomach.

these animals raped her then PEED all over her kicking her like a toy for further humiliation

I had to search the entire internet looking for that "updated news" and the only thing close was reported by the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette saying:

A friend of the defendants admitted today that he offered to pay other pals $3 if they would urinate on the girl as she sat in the street, shirtless."That was me," said Patrick Pizzoferrato, 17. "But it was a joke."No one took him up on his offer, he said.

Where did you hear/read about any urinating other then this? I can't find it...And nothing about Kicking either. Please reply with a refference.

Double standards start from birth.

Are all students of teachers really that smart - or do they get the benefit of the doubt when other teachers grade their work?

You can over-come being one of the "nots" if you have a special talent - like being a jock. Had this been the team trainers trying to cart off a drunken girl, no question, people would have stopped the molesters...but a jock (time to be cool and look the other way)?

AmayaB:

Good post... well thought out, but there are a few problems here. The court case is going on right now. Keep in mind that I am not one of those that you say "fault" the victim. I am one of those who say the victim shares SOME of the responsibility. That doesn't reduce the responsibility of the boys for their actions and what they have admitted to, nor should it affect their punishment. In any case, The Pittsburgh Post Gazette reported:

One witness, Julia Lefever, 17, said the girl had been drinking vodka mixed with a Slushee and got intoxicated quickly, stumbling and slurring her speech.

The MSN video attached of the NBC report says the defense is claiming that Mays was in a relationship with the victim. That will not sit well in a NonJury trial. Whatever the outcome of the trial will be this is a tragic incident and I feel horrible for this poor woman and disgusted by all the boys posting videos and photos and humilliating her. And I do believe that the act of hand penitration is rape and they should be charged with rape if they are found guilty. Because right now... that is the strongest charge against them.

Ok, it has been stated it is illegal for someone under 21 to drink. Does that mean the boys will also be charged with underaged drinking ? If they are guilty, I would say they shouldn't have been drinking as it fueled this .

Patrick Hanna

You mean like the parents of every other kid who is accused of anything at all in this entire country? People have made some kind of idiotic connection between football and this tragedy to make a story out of it. In reality it is no different than the way most parents act when their kids are accused of something.

My daughter was arrested for shoplifting. My response? " I taught my daughter right from wrong. Prosecute this girl, and when she becomes my daughter again I will welcome her home." Not all parents make excuses for their children's wrongful acts. I was sorely disappointed in the judicial system which thought my way of handling my daughters criminal acts was enough and let her off with leniency. I thought she should have been taught a lesson she'd never forget from someone besides mommy.

She was just getting her party on and the players joined in

dawgettes, lol cute. i undrstand they were underage regardlss of that fact, i've workedtending many bars, and the so called ''sports bars'' the ppl who went there werethe kind of ppl who would wreck the place throw glasses start fights, i can guarentee you those are the rapists, all the, what you would call, biker bars had not one single incident, all polite , calm and decent tippers. ( and a few of them were hells angels)

@TheMan, it was a live feed from the courtroom reported by FoxNews 8 Cleveland, Ohio. The faces of the accused were blocked due to age. The charges read included everything I wrote including peeing on her after they raped her.

If a woman should be held not responsible in a sex case because she is too impaired shouldn't that same argument apply if a woman is too impaired to drive a car but is driving?

The truth is, this town like most towns in Northern Michigan are Republican strong holds.

Chuck that right there isn't surprising. Back in 2009 remember the Franken bill where his amendment called for withholding defense contracts from companies if they prevented their employees from taking workplace sexual assault, and discrimination cases to court? This coming after the gang rape of Jamie Leigh Jones by her Halliburton/KBR co-workers. Franken's amendment got 30 'nay' votes.................

All from Republican Senators.

So yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all.

@ Dick thats kind of a silly argument and I think you know that. In this case it would be more comparable to a woman getting passed out drunk, someone sticking her in the passenger seat of a car to drive her home but decides to rob a convenient store on the way. Shes in the car along for the ride but she had no say in the matter. She was incapable of recognizing what was going on and getting out of the car.

Are you not allowed to get pass out drunk? If you decide that you want to get wasted at a party that's your choice. You can just lay down on a couch and sleep it off. If someone then comes up to you and stabs you in the chest while you lay there are you partly responsible? I mean really, sexual assault can happen even when you are stone sober walking down the street on a bright summers day. No consent means no consent.

There's a difference between to ppl being drunk and having sex and regretting it in the morning and a 16yr old girl (probably to young to know how to handle her drinking) passing out drunk and a bunch of guys raping her. fyi "passing out" doesnt always mean unconscious, sometimes ur so drunk your brain just shuts down and ur body is functioning just enough that you can still breath, blink and possibly prop yourself up against a wall, so just because she was able to stand does not mean that she was able to make any major decisions like getting raped by multiple guys while ppl watched...at the age of 16

I mean really, any adult with even the most minimal amount of sense can not argue that the girl should take responsibility in this with all the evidence thats been shown.

Seven2Seven:

Still haven't found that information. It is not in the FoxNews 8 Cleveland video archive. It is awful if it happened but doesn't seem to be included in any of the court files I have read. Lets wait until it has been proven that they did that until accusing them.

Doggysaywhat,

This is the federal law as it stands rigt now

Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

So you see it does not matter what the state law is the federal law supersedes state law. You cannot simply say I didn't know she was being raped. That does not excuse you from your duty to report it.

The urination was stated in the dialogue. I listened to it and it was clearly stated that at least one of the males urinated on the girl in the street. They may have claimed at a later time that it did not take place but in the drunken dialogue it was discussed as though it happened.

They are drunk and discussing rape as it goes on. Anal and vaginal penetration is also described as taking place. There is little doubt of what is taking place. It's clear from the words. Anyone could create a transcript from this tape. It's clear as daylight.

Peridot:

The tape with the dialogue you're talking about... is that the tape that has been floating around youtube with the idiot boys talking about the ordeal? If it is, they have already determined that those boys had nothing to do with the crime and weren't even associated with the football team. The only facts that are relevant are in the court documents and so for, in the court records, the only thing mentioned is:

A friend of the defendants admitted today that he offered to pay other pals $3 if they would urinate on the girl as she sat in the street, shirtless."That was me," said Patrick Pizzoferrato, 17. "But it was a joke."No one took him up on his offer, he said.

It's not the young woman's fault for what happened. The incident shows a breakdown in our society. Someone bought the alcohol for the teenagers unless they stole it. Either a crime. The young woman was drinking which I have to blame her parents and friends for making her think it was ok. The circle of witness's who did nothing to stop it. And the boys that are accused of rape's parents for not raising their children to know better.

What happened to personal accountability??? This is why young girls shouldn't go to parties and drink. Being taken advantage of and rape are 2 totally different animals. Being taken advantage of doesn't involve being held down and forced to have sex.

All the teens in this incident need to be accountable for their actions, even this young girl.

For Bill. The crux is whether or not the witness knows that a felony is being committed. That's what a prosecutor would have to prove. For example, let's say you see two people having sex but one has been drugged with ecstasy and didn't really consent. It could be considered rape, but simply seeing the action doesn't mean the witness knows that a crime is being committed. State laws are superseded by federal but the state law can impose additional penalties or be more strict in how you determine if a witness should know if the crime being committed is actually a crime. In the case above, the federal law may have particular guidelines for determining if the person should know a crime is committed, but the state may pass a different law that lowers said guidelines. In that case, the federal law wouldn't do much but the state law may.

In this particular case, a witness could be considered someone who simply saw an individual escorting a drunken girl outside before she passes out. Or, it could be someone watching the full activity. It could also include someone who glances over, sees something, and then walks away. Proving that a witness did know or should have known that a crime was being committed is the difficult part for cases such as these.

The way the federal law is written, it's more useful to situations where an individual in charge of a criminal organization is aware of the actions of his subordinates or an individual conceals a crime but they can't really prove concealment but can prove knowledge. Applying such a law to witnesses of a crime is far more difficult.

Rose Colored Glasses

My post was about responsibility. If she was forced to get drunk and passed out and then was placed in the location where she was raped then I will agree with you.

If you are present at a crime you are legally responsible. You have a duty to call the police. people do not really want to hear this. This is a sad story for all three people. The are not animals, monster, they are children. The brain is not adult until age 24, plus most football player have brain injury ask OJ. Or just watch his hall of fame speech.

For oh oh oh. Again, only legally responsible if you have knowledge that it is a crime or should reasonably have knowledge that a crime is being committed. It may seem like splitting hairs, but it would be and is an extremely important part of a trial involving the legal responsibility of reporting a crime.

The drunk was "too impaired to say 'YES' " would have been more poignant a statement by officials.

If found guilty after fair trial they should be punished. The bloodlust for the witnesses and townspeople is unfounded and based on rage fueled by the rape and domestic violence industry sweeping this nation. Unless of course the victims are boys and men. Where is the outrage for the daily rapes of boys and men in prison? Where is the outrage for female teachers wo rape male students? Where is the outrage for girls who rape thier male dates who have not given explicit consent? If your response is that they deserved or desired it then you are no better than any of the boys laughing at the pictures and videos in this case.

Anybody who will stand and watch a violent crime in progress and not do anything to try to stop it is as bad as the perp doig the crime.

Seriously, Jim? Based on the single photo alone of the boys carrying her by her arms and legs, they're a bunch of turds at a minimum. Every human being I personally know would be ashamed of me if I did only that, let alone worse.

How is that so bad relax? Teenagers do dumb things all the time. Im not talking about rape, but carrying a drunk person is not some great evil. I've seen it done to numerous boys and girls in high school, and never was it with malicious intent or in a sexual way. Im not saying they are innocent, but carrying a passed out girl, doesnt mean you're gunna rape her.

mollypot,

Your "lynch mob" mentality is dangerous.

NC-492358filth,

Rape enablers like you are the reason why things like this happen in the first place. Glad you all will reap what you sow, one way or another. :D

Have you guys really not watched the video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=22UsHZXPi7Q&bpctr=1360609209&bpctr=1363195337&bpctr=1363195389&bpctr=1363195394

They talk about raping her. They use the word "rape", talk about how's she "dead", "isn't moving", etc.

It isn't just the picture. It isn't just the story. It's the video. It's sickening. They're laughing about raping her and peeing on her.

I have been fed up with stupid football mentality for years. Football mentality has in this situation justified giving alcohol to minors, a total absence of parenting, and justification of a whole assortment of trashy, unhealth behaviors, all to go with a big game. They say it doesn't reflect on Steubenville, but it does. It reflects on every town where this primitive behavior goes with a big game.

If the young lady doesn't know if she was rape ,how is the D A going to prove his case? Who saw the rape occur? How does one know she didn't say yes? Who's semen did they find? A police officer was let go inNYC because the woman was so drunk.

Doesn't matter JE... 1. I would say a doctor or nurse 2. By medical records or witnesses 3. Witnesses 4. She wasn't 18, therefore not able to give conscent. 5. Should come out in court 6. You said it... Woman... not girl.

If you want to know more about why people are saying this was cover up, you can go to The Atlantic Wire dot com and search Local Leaks Tipsters Allege Steubenville Victim was drugged.

I couldn't watch the whole video. It's very troubling. These boys are very detached from emotional reality, and are objectifying this girl like she were a toy to play with and defile. A dead body. They hold all the power.
It's very abnormal and antisocial, maybe even sociopathic. Does anybody think that online porn is stunting the psychosexual development of youth? Are people afraid to ask such questions?

I don't need a trial to see that these two boys took advantage of an naked, impaired young girl on video. They did that. I've seen enough and know how the majority of young football stars behave. Questioning the judgement of a drunk, naked young teenage girl is a punks way to imply she's guilty of something.

I know that these boys didn't drag a naked young girl out of that house to teach her to play poker. There's ONE REASON and ONLY ONE REASON these two boys dragged the victim out of the house. SEXUAL ASSAULT! We have an epidemic of sexual assault/rape in this country and the comments that even suggest the victim is at fault are sickening. Yes, sickening!

No man worth @!$%# would take advantage of a young girl that's made a serious error in judgement and drunken too much alcohol. Only the lowest form of life rapes or sexually assaults a semi-conscious girl. These two should be eligible for adult prison where the fathers of young girls would stick it these thugs. Literally!

America has too many cases of victimization of innocent women and girls for anyone to be defending these two. Perpetuating the violence against women has no place in a civilized society. Just look at the Taliban and Al-Qaeda if you want to see women that have been victims of constant male abuse. Then think about the minds of men that commit these acts. Sick, disgusting and perverted. Nothing less.

Yes, tiredofitall, everyone in this town is a rapist. And all of the women in this town support this.

Hey tiredof, you are so smart and know it all, why don't you just tell all of us all about Rothlesburger's case so we will know what you know. Obviously you were the lead investigator, were you not?

Actually I had no idea. :-O I went through high school envying & respecting those female cheerleaders. Thanks for pointing that "fact" out, now I know they were just a bunch of sl&ts certainly not worth the envy let alone any respect! TIC

chuck, the cheerleaders at my school during my year were mostly on the christian club, and I never saw one of them at a party, literally not one. My sister was also a cheerleader and never like football players. The football players also didnt party that much. I went to a very conservative town, and we didnt have one rape scandal while I was in school.

Chuck, Cheerleaders had to give it up to make the team? Do you know what that is? I'll help you out some. It's called white slavery, But really, what I think it is is nothing more than an overactive imagination and a whole lot of wishful thinking while in the shower pounding one out.

A picture speaks a thousand words and the internet speaks millions!

That doesn't make her culpable - just incredibly stupid. Let's not start attacking the "victim"

tatas, is it your belief that sexual assault is acceptable as long as the victim is anesthesized by alcohol or drugs and unable to give conscious consent? If a teen is stupid enough to indulge in alcohol &/or drugs, should they then be fair game for any type of assault others wish to practice? That's like the old argument that how a girl dresses can be an invitation for rape. Do you believe that as well?

Why on earth would the girl be responsible for her own rape? Not to mention there are some reports she was possibly doped on the ride to the party.....plus I don't care how drunk a woman gets that is never an opening to rape her. What the heck is wrong with people? She should be able to streak the neighborhood naked and not expect to get raped. These boys should have drew on her face and took silly pictures like 90% or most normal teens...not sexually assualted her and post the assaults online. Good grief....I can't believe you think she should be held responsible for her own rape.

tatas - if you have read the previous stories on this incident, you would know that the girl was invited to the party by a "friend" after she had broke up with one of the boys. It was at the party where she was given GHB (date rape drug) without her knowledge (per information on case). If you know anything about GHB, you'd know that people given this don't remember much about what happened while they were on it.

The girl may not have been drinking alcohol or been intoxicated.

And I suppose the girl who self administered enough alchohol to "not remember what happened" bears no responsibility for what occurred?

You would make a great defense attorney - accuse the victim to deflect from the accused. It doesn't matter whether it was self administered or forced - if she was drunk she didn't have the ability to give consent.

Why is being drunk an acceptable excuse for denying reponsibility if you are the accused but it is not acceptable if you are the victim?

What many of the posts here seem to forget is that there are apparently numerous witnesses to this incident that say she "consented" to this. That's why they are being forced to testify. The article said even comments made by the "victim" after the incident are apparently of the sort to help the defense and that's why they are calling them in to testify. These are NOT the boys friends but the supposed best friends of the the girl here. Doesn't that make you go hhhmmm. Maybe this girl went along then in retrospect was embarassed by her behavior then decided to play the victim?? NONE of us know the whole story but I bet the defense wouldn't be forcing the best friends to testify if they thought it would hurt their case.

Let me make this clear, as the Mother of a son and a daughter, I would want fairness to rule. Let me say I do NOT condone the actions of any of the parties in this. First the girl shouldn't have been drinking, she made a choice and has to live with it. The boys shouldn't have done what they did and it's pretty apparent they will pay for that but until the court knows if she consented, then we all better sit back and let the truth come out.

What many of the posts here seem to forget is that there are apparently numerous witnesses to this incident that say she "consented" to this. That's why they are being forced to testify. The article said even comments made by the "victim" after the incident are apparently of the sort to help the defense and that's why they are calling them in to testify. These are NOT the boys friends but the supposed best friends of the the girl here. Doesn't that make you go hhhmmm. Maybe this girl went along then in retrospect was embarassed by her behavior then decided to play the victim?? NONE of us know the whole story but I bet the defense wouldn't be forcing the best friends to testify if they thought it would hurt their case.

Let me make this clear, as the Mother of a son and a daughter, I would want fairness to rule. Let me say I do NOT condone the actions of any of the parties in this. First the girl shouldn't have been drinking, she made a choice and has to live with it. The boys shouldn't have done what they did and it's pretty apparent they will pay for that but until the court knows if she consented, then we all better sit back and let the truth come out.

"And I suppose the girl who self administered enough alchohol to "not remember what happened" bears no responsibility for what occurred?"

Oh, is your son one of the accused?

I've been in her shoes (except it was a stepfather of a friend, not classmates), and I'll tell you something; Your statement above, is EXACTLY why I didn't want to press charges, get the rape kit done, or even tell anyone. I felt like I was to blame. I felt like it was MY fault. In reality, I shouldn't have felt that way. I shouldn't have to worry about being raped...especially in a house with people I trusted, just as this girl trusted her "friends" and classmates.

If I hadn't gone to the police, then his step-daughter would have never had the courage to come forward as well. Her other friend wouldn't have had the courage. His wife's friend wouldn't have ever come forward.

If I get robbed at gun point, was I asking for it by carrying a designer handbag?

Oklahoma Mom,

Go read other articles and get the specifics on the case. There is a whole lot more than what's on this article.

OklahomaMom

False. There is NOT apparently numerous "witnesses" saying that this rape victim "consented" to the sexual acts that were performed against her.

However, there are witnesses that have "confirmed" that the two charged suspects did in fact rape her.

Hate that this incident even happened. I also hate to hear that there were so many other people (now potential witnesses) around that did nothing to stop the alleged "interaction" & alleged "rage" of a girl that was supposed to be a "friend". In all of this mess - we have a dozen or so other kids that watched & stood around as it happened. Kids with alcohol having the courage to do things they know they shouldn't be doing...let alone drinking.

What if this incident wasn't recorded (pics, vids)? Or if the media hadn't been uploaded for public consumption? It would've been something "people" said happened, but no clear evidence existed to prove "something" happened.

I didn't see the pics or vids. So it will be interesting to hear the witness accounts from the accuser's best-friend of what happened that night and the morning after.

And since video was recorded, was it clear enough to see two accused boys taking advantage of a girl too drunk to say "no"?

Such a sad scene. But no personal reflection of the overall community of Steubenville. This could have happened to anyone living anywhere, at any age, and at any stage of their lives. Hopefully justice pulls the truth out & these kids can learn and continue on with their lives a little wiser.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was "rape" because she was underage. If younger than the age of consent, then it doesn't matter if she was drunk or stone cold sober and laying on the floor begging for it, SHE CANNOT CONSENT AND IT QUALIFIES AS RAPE.

Don't know about the state she lives in, but where I live, it is only a "defense to prosecution" that the actor was within three years of the victim's age. That means, the actor is still arrested and charged, it still goes to trial, and the jury has the choice of accepting the defense.

I agree that the boys should be held accountable, and have a fair trial. But all the talk about how the girl shouldn't have gotten that drunk is superfluous. She was underage.

tatas:

So, if I happen by a drunken person while out for a stroll, or if someone at a party I attend is drunk, it is his or her fault if I violate them or steal from them?

C'mon!

And I suppose the girl who self administered enough alchohol to "not remember what happened" bears no responsibility for what occurred?

Does not excuse rape... period.

Being drunk doesn't not put a sign on her head that says "I consent"

Sure, consent might be a legal issue, but it's irrelevant as a social issue. Anyone who takes advantage of someone when they're drunk is an ass. Even if they get no legal punishment, society has an obligation to let them know they are horrible people.

her parents should be charged with child neglect, your 16 yr old is out getting that drunk.

Nothernil~

Her parents should be charged with neglect? Are you effing serious? You must've been Sister Mary Margaret (or the male equivalant) when you were 16 years old or have your head in the sand about the realities of teenagers. They sneak out, they lie to their parents, they do stuff they aren't supposed to do. I pulled all of that and probably more when I was this girls age and my parents had NO clue. Thankfully, I had an awesome group of guy friends that would've filleted anyone that tried to touch me. It's so sad that this girl didn't have that or that the people standing around couldn't be troubled to do more than watch. Bunch of asshats.

There is much more to the story. She didn't get herself drunk. She was lured to the party by another female student, who pretended to be her friend, but was an accomplice of Mays. This female accomplice slipped the victim a date rape drug. The charges are totally lame and insufficient. She was carried to two different parties and passed around for hours. She was violated by more than just the two who are accused and abused repeatedly, with more than just fingers. There is a witness description of her laying there as if dead, while being simultaneously anally raped with an object and orally raped by a male student. When they were through with her, they dumped her unconscious body on the front lawn of the house where she had last been used, where one of the perps pissed on her, then tweeted that that's what sluts deserve. then they left her laying there and went back to the party. These football players were known as the rape crew, because they had been doing the same sort of thing with other girls for months. There are pictures of some of the earlier victims too.

For a general statement, being drunk means a person is unable to give consent, not they are unable to say no

For this case in specific, the girl tested positive for GHP, a date rape drug.

That means that regardless of what she may have said she legally could not consent. It also means that whoever gave her the drug (assuming it was not one of the two alleged rapists) should be prosecutable for conspiracy to commit rape.

Thank you Den for digging deep into the facts. The GHP dosing is very sinister, and deserving of harsh punishment, to whoever conspired to it. Rape justice is something that this Ohio-W VA community has to step up to. It's a national priority.

Which part of the trial is not fair? The part where the accused get one before you declare them like the Duke Lacrosse players and the myriad of boys and men tried and found guilty who committed no crime?

A few years ago several sports stars at a nearby high school vandalized rival schools' properties to the tune of $100,000+ in damages. When they were found guilty of felony destruction of property several parents argued that the verdict was unfair because it caused two of the students to lose their athletic scholarships. Wanta bet if the vandalism had been committed by non-athletes there'd have been no parents opposed to the verdict?

In earlier reports there were allegations of cover-ups because of the impacts it would have on "the promising careers" of the football players.

What is damning for the accused is the video AND audio of the rape and the cheering of the people off camera.

Wow, Prok, you really don't understand a schools finances do you? Their football teams that you hate so much, bring in the most money per event than any other sport in the schools, usually combined. There is a reason they allocate funds to football and not to cycling, football brings in the cash.

Essentially, cut the footballs, and you cut a reliable portion of every schools budget. You're hatred for the sport, or probably sports in general, forces you to spout ignorantly.

Gee, and I always thought going to school was about getting an education, not about football or any other sport.

So you can't do both enid? Guess you aren't very good at multi-tasking.

Prok, the vast majority of the time the football programs pay for themselves and even help other sports programs so your school budget comment is nonsense.

As far as the health issue you bring up, at the high school level it isn't near the issue as it is when you get to college or the pros.

You know where all that money goes? Into the football team. It's why they always have shiny new helmets and a shiny new great big useless stadium and a shiny new locker room that people only the football team can use. It goes into the budget for buying nacho chips and cheese dip for the fat useless slobs that actually think their little Jimmy boy is gonna be a professional football player. And yeah, health issues don't arise until later.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/national/dana-payne-15-dies-after-being-hit-during-football-practice-in-tennessee

Okay.

They sport makes money for the school, there is no arguing that, to try is foolish.

Every sport can cause health issues down the line, so can't eating almost any food, get over it. Just admit you hate sports and you have a vendetta against them.

Wow great article, someone died. Happens all the time in almost every situation people can think of, again get over it.

Looks like football has been causing you some problems. Might wanna get your head checked out.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opinion/brian-oneill/football-gets-a-pass-in-school-budget-cuts-289459/

My personal favorite quote.

"Ya gotta cut football. This is a region where plenty of people don't know that the square root of 36 is 6, but everyone knows the Steelers have won six Super Bowls"

Kudos, you were able to find one article of a school system that is too inept to budget appropriately so they might be losing money on football. If a football school is losing money on football, they shouldn't be allowed to run a school.

Prok, you don't have a clue what your talking about.

From first hand knowledge I can tell you that in the vast majority of schools football pays for itself. It doesn't use any school budget money. Also the facilities are donated the vast majority of the time. Schools have athletic clubs that are made up of parents that do fund raisers and donate time to the sports programs. I was a member of one such club when my sons were in school playing sports.

Also, with millions of kids involved in sports the tragic death of a few is far less then if there were no sports and the kids start hanging out on the street corner with too much free time on their hands and mischief they would get in to.

AMEN Prokhor. I taught in the public school system for 8 years and witnessed the "football hero" phenomenon first hand and the celebrity status they enjoyed. Now I teach at a division I college and guess what? It's the same thing!!

Seems a majority of people have forgotten that academic institutions, no matter what level, are first and foremost places for students to receive an education!

Right Paul. Donated. Because buildings and facilities don't require constant maintenance and repair. Face it. Football sucks money out of schools, it can utterly ruin lives and it leads to those football players and coaches acting like they're entitled and more important than an actual teacher or student that is trying to make a future for themselves instead of spending their formative years playing a violent game that essentially harkens back to the Roman Colosseum where crowds watched people beat each other to death. Football is no different than a video game like Call of Duty. All you learn in it is how to work with people on your team to hurt the other team as much as possible and that teamwork extends to actual school days as well.

I'm not sure how it is in High School but I imagine it's the same as in college. Two years ago, 98 of the top 120 colleges and universities that get the most TV money for football have programs that operate in the red. The money goes to big salaries for coaches and administrators, state of the art practice facilities and equipment and whatever else they can waste it on. That means these schools have to take tuition money and bolster the football teams budget.

So please stop with the silly argument that football teams bring in so much money to the schools like the money helps the schools out. It doesn't. It's money wasted.

Just to note. I don't hate sports. I love baseball and lacrosse and basketball but there is a reason Europeans chuckle and laugh and don't actually like Football at all. It's because it's a horrible sport with mostly horrible people involved in it. Michael Vick ring a bell anyone? That being treated as a King thing fits perfectly right here. You really want your kids playing a game where the Professional Leagues actually rehire this guy and give him a -one hundred million dollar contract.-

Prof - You have no idea how many students stay in school and go on to college because of high school sports. Students involved in sports must maintain eligibility in order to play, which means keeping their grades up. While I will admit that some teachers will gloss over a failed exam or two in order to keep their players eligible, the majority do not. Additionally, students learn about teamwork and discipline. These are values that will serve them throughout their lives. There are bad apples in every sport, in every business, in every everything, but there is still more good. My own son would have probably dropped out of school without team sports and he eventually graduated from a four year college with honors! Do school sports save every athlete? No they don't. But I still believe that sports help more than they hurt.

Prokhor - Parents can't get their testosterone/estrogen high from watching the debate team. High school sports is all about making money for local businesses and not about fostering true sportsmanship. Kids in the arts and academics programs in the end will be better rounded individuals because they don't have the profiteering of the entire community on their shoulders and can make it through life on their own without free rides and perks.

Sports are good. Football is bad.

Academician Zakharov,

First off, how's life on Alpha Centauri these days? (Yes, I know where your nick comes from)

Secondly I feel a need to chime in at this point, even though by now we are wildly off topic. I should start off by saying that I am a HUGE football fan, and until the last couple years I thought more people were helped by football than hurt by it. Yes there have been traumatic injuries in football, but there are traumatic injuries in most sports. Soccer has a higher concussion rate than football among high school and college level players, for example. However the elephant in the room regarding football is the growing evidence that Chronic Traumatic Encephelopathy MAY be caused, or aggravated, by repeated low grade impacts. If this is ever shown to be true, then society's attitude towards football MUST change. Not so much for the professional athletes, who were paid millions for their risks, but for the millions of high school athletes who we may be putting at risk for holes in their brains.

If stories like Mike Webster, Dave Duerson and Junior Seau start happening to high school kids, we need to put football aside. You have no idea how much it would pain me to do so, but my entertainment is not worth young men's lives and mental health. A better helmet may help. The future will tell soon enough.

Prokhor,

You want to talk about horrible fans, soccer fans are the worst in terms of violence they commit against other fans. And lets not forget all the racist taunts the Europeans have been throwing around during games recently. Sorry if Europeans are too girly to play football. And the sport with the most serious injuries is not football or any other guy sport in the US. Its cheerleading.

If football "pays" for itself, the why, when I was in high school, was my high school band told there was no money to send us to march in the Rose Bowl parade because the school had just bought new football uniforms? Shouldn't the revenues from the games have bought them their uniforms?

Girls...no consent mean no too.

I'm not condemning the sports programs, but I am attacking the idea that if a kid can pass or catch a football he gets a pass on everything else.

This is where the problem lies. You should not get a free ride on grades and everything else because you are good at a sport. That is where the culture of a sports oriented school goes wrong, it is not the fault of the sport however, it is the parents and school admin that cause/allow this.

If found guilty after fair trial they should be punished. The bloodlust for the witnesses and townspeople is unfounded and based on rage fueled by the rape and domestic violence industry sweeping this nation. Unless of course the victims are boys and men. Where is the outrage for the daily rapes of boys and men in prison? Where is the outrage for female teachers wo rape male students? Where is the outrage for girls who rape thier male dates who have not given explicit consent? If your response is that they deserved or desired it then you are no better than any of the boys laughing at the pictures and videos in this case.

When teaching my first collegiate level class (a geology lab). I had the pleasure of have seven football players in my class. They would come into to the three hour class and stay about thirty minutes and then leave. When time for the first test arrived I waited until they left then explained to my class that it was time for a test and that we needed to make one up. We spent the next hour developing a ten question test. All of the students who remained had all of the questions for the test except for a fifty point "bonus" question that I would include at the end of the test. The next lab class the test was presented. All of the football players failed where the rest of the class made a 100% and many got the bonus question right. The football players became ineligible for play because of their failure. The head coach came to me and ask that I change their grades. I would not. The head coach went to my department chair and sponsoring Prof. and demanded they change my grades. They did not. I offered that they could retest if they attended a four hour tutoring secession and I would let the new test score stand. All of they players showed up with an assistant coach in tow and at the end of the secession we made up a test (the same privilege that my other students had) and all of them received a 100%. I never after that point had a football player leave my class early, not participate, or fail another exam. In fact geology became the preferred science credit for most athletes.

The primary purpose of any school is first education then extra-circular activates (sports, band, debate, or chess team).

You were very lucky that the coaches backed you up. Most places they blame the teacher if an athlete gets flunked. They are expected to simply pass them, whether their work calls for it or not. In college I became a remedial English tutor. At first I didn't understand where all the illiterate students in my groups came from---how the hell had they graduated high school without learning to read, write, spell, add or subtract?---until I realized that they were football players. And not only had they been passed every year in high school without going to classes or doing any work, we tutors were expected to make sure that continued through college. When I found out that my job was not to help them write papers, but simply to write papers that they would then turn in and get credit for, I'd had enough of tutoring, and eventually college as well.

What becomes of those guys who either get hurt and lose their scholarships, or graduate and then don't get picked up by the pros? Most are still illiterate, despite their college diplomas, and couldn't fill out a simple job application. I guess, since they were big strong dudes, they could always either move furniture or become bouncers in clubs. They sure couldn't do my of anything else, and I don't think that schools, whether high school or college, did them any favors by giving them grades they didn't earn themselves in order to make sure they had plenty of time for football practice.

It's an indictment of our culture that our entertainers are the highest paid individuals (other than bank$ter$, politicians, and corporate fatcats) human beings in this country. And that's what football players, at any level, are, entertainers. They allow us to forget our sad, pitiful, empty lives for a couple of hours, whether by playing football, music, or making movies. The term "spectator sports" is an oxymoron. Sports should be a physical activity that we all participate in, not something we sit on our fat asses on our couch, eating Cheetos and drinking beer, watching on our 52" HD-TV.

This is why we are the fattest, unhealthiest, laziest nation on Earth, and why we are in a death-spiral down to 3rd world status. The entitlement that we give to "sports stars," even at the high school level, is just one more indication that the United States has completely lost its' way. If we truly cared about our children, we would end competitive team sports in what are supposed to be educational facilities, and instead get back to making sure ALL children get some physical activity every day, at whatever level they are capable of, without winners to fawn over and losers to bully and vilify.

If we value competition so much that we can't live without it, make science fairs and debates competitive, where kids who excel in academics and learning to think for themselves in ways that will eventually benefit the world can shine. For in the end, old football players are never going to cure cancer or invent something that's going to make our dependence on foreign oil go away. It's those kids who have the A+ is science and math that are going to help us compete with China and Japan.

You are pathetic... angry you missed out on the rape?

Wasc -

So you want to give her a fine for under-age drinking? Perhaps she paid the price already. But pretty much what you are saying is absolutely beyond belief stupid.

Ah...deflection and blaming the victim. I truly wish you could see how what you just wrote makes you look. I know, maybe the girl should also kill herself or be killed by her family for the dishonor she has brought them? Boys will be boys right? Maybe her clothing was too slutty?

because alcohol induced memory loss is impossible. and she also might've be in a stupor because she's was so gone that she's threw up on multiple occasions..once where she had to be carried out of the bathroom. if your gonna be drunk and hook up, fine...but she was in no position to consent to anything after the first time she vomitted.

So, some of you think that it is alright for some people to break the law of the land, and not be arrested or prosecuted for there crime. UM, very interesting.

From personal experience in my younger dumber days I can tell you your comment about memory loss isn't true.

But regardless, that doesn't give anyone the right to take advantage.

utamegi25

- Are you some kind of doctor? I spoke to a doctor about this and he said it is not only possible but probable. Check facts before you pronounce judgement. i hope you never get on a jury.

because alcohol induced memory loss is impossible.

Was I the only one that read that as obvious sarcasm? geez guys.

She wasn't drunk, she was given GHP, a date rape drug (her system tested positive) on the way to the party by a girl who was friends with one of the accused actually

But I suppose if she was stupid enough to go to a party with boys she was asking for it right, after all any girl who goes to a party with boys is just asking to be drugged and gang-raped

The fact of the matter is, even the excuses people traditionally give (as bad as they are) don't apply here, there are at least three co-conspirators to Rape in the first degree (the wonders of the other articles on this story)

GHP? Is that more potent than GHB?

Pay attention: The girl was deliberately fed a date-rape drug. That may not have appeared in this particular article, but if this article is the only thing you've read about this case, you don't have enough information to post a comment that makes any sense anyway. There was a wide conspiracy, including at least one other female, to drug the girl and humiliate her, in retaliation for her dumping her boyfriend, one of the football "stars." That has been confessed to by a number of people, most of whom were promised immunity from prosecution.

I'm waiting to see if the feds charge the adults who used their positions of authority to help further the conspiracy and cover-up under RICO, and the kids who crossed the state line to dump her unconscious body on her parents' lawn under the Mann act. If the feds don't get involved, I'm going to be very disappointed in the Justice Department. Cases like this, where the local authorities are complicit, are what federal crimes of "denying the civil rights" of an individual are for.

When southern sheriffs refused to prosecute crimes whites committed against blacks during the civil rights movement, the federal government passed federal statutes that overruled local and state authorities. Of course, since this is just a "female" and the charge is just "rape," something even the effa-bee-eye doesn't give a rat's ass about, it's doubtful that even they will do the right thing. There are still groups (who aren't even minorities, since women are over 51% of the population but can't stick together in anything) that are routinely disempowered and disenfranchised by every level of government and society. "Sluts" AKA any woman or girl who isn't a virgin or a mother, are the new n-word, and crimes against them are tolerated, if not actively encouraged.

One perp is white.. one is black.. where is the racism or are yo a big Penn State fan?

nothingnew is going to be the quintessential Biden voter. Someone with absolutely no intellignece.

lol what does this have to do with race what so ever?

So they are criminals now before trial? Do they not deserve fair trial because they are not special snowflakes needing you to "protect her honor"? And you call them "pu**ies" as if female genitalia is something to be despised, the lowest of the low. I know men like you Fred, men who desire to be seen as a savior, someone stronger and better and valorous and worthy of worship for being the white knight who protects the fragile and weak women who do not have the strength, ability, and intelligence to stand on the same footing as men in a court of law, in the workplace, in the classroom, and in the home. In other words, you are a sexist scumbag and if statistics hold true will be hoisted on your own petard.

No, they are the scourge of the earth before the trial. Anyone extolling the virtues of strength, ability, and intelligence should know that it's the social obligation of anyone with those virtues to use them to protect people from harm and make society better, not take advantage of the weakness of others.

How is Fred sexist, Jim? A male who wants to be the protector of women...which is what men should be for women...is just the OPPOSITE of sexist. YOU, however, sound EXTREMELY sexist and like a man who HATES women.

Thank you, RelaxJay. I think a lot of boys missed that lesson from their parents or, whomever raised them. I definitely don't think the schools are teaching them about their social/moral obligations. My 8 year old is in a program called Junior Gents. I never heard of it growing up but I am glad that his school seems to be trying to teach boys how to be gentlemen when they grow up and are bigger and stronger than their female counterparts.

Spew your bile about what men should be for women somewhere else JaevisMom, if females are free from societal expectations then it's high time that men should stop worrying about your petty needs and desires. Protect yourself, you're equal now...

Denverdude, The last thing I'd do is defend the defendants or the town, but Steubenville is far from alone in this total lack of morals. It's not only football either, though it seem that you see it more with football.

Thank you Denverdude7 - could not have said it better myself! All of the commenters on this thread need to sit and watch the 12-minute video that these idiot football players posted on the web before anyone makes any comments on this situation. Also they need to watch the video pics that Anonymous managed to get, after the football players and their friends who witnessed this incident, took down their posts and tweets, BUT NOT QUITE FAST ENOUGH that a lady blogger from STEUBENVILLE managed to get a snapshot of THOSE posts & tweets and broke this whole story!

These idiots did this to themselves, are as guilty as sin and I hope they all end of sitting in jail until they are 21, if not longer! I think that their parents should also be sent to jail! As a parent, you are responsible for your children and their actions until they are 21 years old! After watching these videos, that these idiots made themselves, there is no doubt in my mind that they are guilty and that there indeed has been a cover-up to protect their stupid football team! I hope all involved rot in hell!

Also, Anonymous discovered even more incriminating information regarding the underground gambling ring that exists in this town and its' relationship to this football team! I guess the Penn State Rapists from State College, Pa don't have a strangle-hold on this type of activity after all!

And these boys are Steubenville's best and brightest!

Can you imagine how much worse it would be without the tweets, pictures, AND 12 minutes video? It's sickening how much victim blaming still occurs when there's a 12 minute video where they explicitly talk and laugh about raping her.

As a parent, you are responsible for your children and their actions until they are 21 years old!

Age of majority is 18. Once they can legally sign a contract, your legal liability for them should end. It's too much of a legal nightmare otherwise. Of course, you never really STOP being a parent.

Heart goes out to the victim. No matter the outcome of the trial, the scrutiny in which her innocence has been judged by her small town has made he a victim nonetheless. Football and small towns do go hand-in-hand and often it does produce a sense of self-importance that creates difficult situations like these. I hope they deliberate long and hard about what is consent in this case. I hope the disrespectful teens involved, if not found guilty at least lose their chance of playing on a dignified University team. And I hope mothers all around the country are teaching their son's about CONSENSUAL SEX and all the variations of non consensual sex that they might come across.

So because she should have been slightly smarter (god knows you've never made a mistake) the behavior of everyone else is acceptable?

She may have been known as the school slut, that doesn't give anyone the right to take advantage of her.

I agree and if it appears I am blaming the victim then so be it. The precious little darling needs to be held accountable for HER actions too. I suppose if a 10 yo backs the family car out of the driveway right into the path of my car it's MY fault because, at the age of 10, they have no developed sense of responisibility? Sorry folks, being drunk enough to not be able to say no is not a defense.

Hey honestdebate, I didn't know anything about her school slut stuff but isn't being a slut showing an inherent willingness to accommodate anyone?

So if a person makes a mistake what ever is done to them is ok? Sometimes as human beings we have to take the responsibility for helping others out of a bad spot. It's called being humane. It makes the difference between humans and animals.

Tatas -- you are equating underaged drinking (a misdemeanor) with Felony Rape. I can't even begin to find the words to describe how ridiculous your argument is. I can only assume you are related to one of the accused. If she gets the $100 fine for being a minor in possession, will it be alright if these boys go to prison for raping her and filming it?

Hey honestdebate, I didn't know anything about her school slut stuff but isn't being a slut showing an inherent willingness to accommodate anyone?

What a stupid statement, think before you post.

I apologize, after reading some of your old posts to see what type of person you are, I see you are just an ignorant leftist who spouts nothing but idiocy. I should have done some research before caring what you say at all.

So I guess because I am in a store full of beautiful things, I should get to steal some of that jewelry for myself because HEY....that jewelry shouldn't be so available for the taking. I should go and see what I can take from others and shrug when they blame me for taking their stuff from them because, HEY...you shouldn't have made it so easy for me to take it from you. GREAT MENTALITY.

Tatas - your comments have proven that you should be ignored. How very sad, and scary, that you have no concept of what rape is.

It is sad that young men are not taught at home that an unconcious woman is as good as and affirmative NO. It is also sad that young women are not taught at home to avoid situations, like alcohol until they are mature enough mentally and emotionally to understand the consequences of drinking. However, NO means NO especially if the person in question is to drunk to say yes; then the answer is a definate NO. I am truly sorry that the grandmother of the accused was threatened, seeing as how she did nothing to warrent such abuse. But, Grandma, would you be so quick to hate a threat if it were your granddaughter raped instead of a grandson accused? Parents out there PLEASE teach your sons that no reply to consent is actually NO and teach your daughters the danger of altered perception due to alcohol and drugs. Young men out there, remember that gender is not specific when it comes to rape, you to should learn or be taught the dangers of altered perception due to drugs and alcohol. And to everyone, Man or Woman, before you act on an impulse, ask yourself this; Do I want to be violated while I am intoxicated or do I want to violated another who is intoxicated?

How did the Peter Jenkins comment get turned into him saying IF she didn't consent it was still OK that the boys did whatever they did? I've read that comment a couple of times and don't see that he said that anywhere.

Why do people have such an issue with girls making better decisions and not putting themselves in situations like this? Why monitor your own actions when you can blame other people if things go wrong, right?

tatas, There's a big difference between your dream scenario and the events in question. OOOPs, My Oscar Mayer accidentally fell into her hot and juicy.

It is not ok to rape someone. It is not ok for football players to rape drunk young ladies. No matter what the women are doing or not doing. It is not ok to rape a sexually provacative woman- not saying the woman in question was doing anything in particular. There is nothing that a human being can do that would justify rape. Rape is wrong. Bad. No-no. Are you schmucks beginning to get the picture? Probably not. It takes a long time to train an animal.

Hey now, Honestdebate, I'm a leftist and I take serious offence to being lumped in with victim blaming @!$%#s like tatas.

Tatas, you are a horrible person. You're basically saying that she deserved to get raped. You must be one of those men who think that women are beneath them and should be blamed for everything while all men involved are precious, innocent angels who shouldn't be punished or at least get a slap on the wrist.

Furthermore, there's a possibility that she was drugged, so she may not have had any alcohol anyway and her stupor was the result of the date rape drug. If that part is true than the whole "she shouldn't have been drinking" argument is null and void.

Please tell me you are kidding. Otherwise, I have to assume you are just too stupid to live. A drunk girl (or guy) can't say OK - s/he can't give consent in a debilitated state. And yes, fondling *is* illegal, you twit.

Middleclassless, it's called digital penetration and it is sexual contact.

Two players, quarterback Trent Mays and wide receiver Ma’Lik Richmond, are accused of using their hands to violate the girl

You think this means they fondled her? Don't get out much, do you?

So AMC, are you telling the defendants to use the Bill Clinton defense? " I did not have sexual relations with that woman". You would not let the president of the United States use it, but think it's ok for football players.

Hundreds of parties? Gosh you were popular. Were you invited to any of them?

LoL,good one

WilliamofRites,

In a perfect world...people who drank too much would be taken care of until they sobered up...not taken advantage of. I have nursed men and women back to health after they drank too much. And I have seen others do the same for myself and others. I would never have dreamed of taking advantage of someone because they are drunk. But the World would be too perfect if *gasp* everyone was actually respectful and nice to each other.

You put them under a blanket? What kind of checks were being done on them every 20 minutes, bunch of boys playing doctor? Your entire post is somewhat whacked.

Often times they get it themselves. Believe it or not there are places that sell to minors and kids know where those places are. There have always been those kinds of places.

Yes there is Paul, and if that was the case, they should face a stiff fine and lose their license to sell alcoholic beverages.

it is totally flying over your head.who supplied the alcohol?seriously?who friggin cares who did? just because she got drunk,doesn't mean she turned the green light on.& what happens to the supplier,doesn't matter.if she wanted to drink,she would get alcohol,one way or another..,still doesn't make it right...

Because the precious little darling's dad is horrified that HIS little girl could be involved in something like this. Never mind that she willingly got herself so drunk she allegedly couldn't say no. This is Flip Wilson's "devil made me do it" defense.

That's right - blame the victim.

Because we live in a culture that glamourizes being raped and worships victim status.

There's no "victim" here Pat, according to this story she doesn't claim anything happened.

The law will teach them how to treat somone else,since Mom and Dad didn't.

Bubba is waiting for you,lets see how they like it.

Rick - Go watch the video on YouTube or STFU! You are obviously totally uninformed enough about this story that if you would have watched the darned video, THAT THESE IDIOTS POSTED, you would understand the whole story a bit better!! You must be a Necrophilliac!!

Rick, There is video. Like I said in a post earlier, if the video wasn't put online, this would have gone by like nothing ever happened. Would you say there's no victim if it was your daughter? By the time a boy reaches the stage of maturity most have when playing high school sports, they should know not to take advantage of a helpless child.

Incredibly sad story and I hope these so called football heros go away until they are 21 so they can sit and think everyday WOW, I'm not invincible! I wonder if the parents and supporters of these boys would feel differently if it were some young lady they knew...probably! Yes, the girl shouldn't have been there drinking but well who of us haven't done that when we were kids - hanging out and drinking with what we considered friends - the thought probably never crossed her young mind something horrible could happen. I pray she overcomes this and learns a huge life lesson along with every witness/participator in that room!

Because we live in a culture that glamourizes being raped

Taking stupid to new heights....

-usa1967- wrote: I certainly don't condone the actions of the guys but maybe a 16 yr old girl shouldn't get so drunk she doesn't know what is going on.

I certainly don't condone a 16-year-old girl drinking and being drunk, but maybe two alleged rapists shouldn't go anywhere near girls who don't know what's going on. You know, because they may rape them.

PS: apologies for posting under the wrong thread of comments.

Rick really you need help. She doesn't remember she was too impaired. There are videos of this with sound. And yes the town did try to keep it quiet.

Drinking age is 21. Pull a horses tail and you're going to get bit.

I certainly don't condone the actions of the guys but maybe a 16 yr old girl shouldn't get so drunk she doesn't know what is going on

No offense intended, but this kind of a no-brainer isn't it? It is a fact of life that teenagers don't listen or take advice all that well, and teenagers getting drunk at a party is nothing new and is unlikely to change anytime soon. I did it 30 or so years ago and many of my friends and schoolmates did also. Most of us survived. A few did not.

A close friend and I were in a similar situation with a very attractive young lady who had a little too much-okay, a lot too much. We joked about what we could do, but did not do it. Instead, we looked after her until her condition improved. It just didn't seem right or "okay" to take advantage of the situation. Without hearing the case, I agree with the prosecutor. No person in the state of inebriation described in this article can consent, period.

That being said, the defendants are entitled to their day in court, and the defense in this case may be well-served to call some right-wingers in to determine if this rape was a "legitimate" one. After all, the young lady clearly was not exercising personal responsibility. In a rural "football-obsessed" small town in Ohio, this argument would probably work with many people. Of course, one must also consider race. We all know how important race is in determining one's character and whether or not they are guilty of a crime (sarcasm).

From your posts, most of you have only read this story and haven't done the research that Mario Gonzalez above has done. Go back up to his post for most of the facts. Here are a few more. The girl was roofie'd, AKA fed a date rape drug, in retaliation for dumping one of the football players. His current girlfriend was in on the administration of the drug, or has attested to that fact.

So all the posts that vilify the girl or claim that the rapists were not to blame because it was the girl's fault for getting so drunk are moot. She didn't deliberately get that drunk; she was drugged by a conspiracy of quite a few people who worked together to ensure that she was unable to give consent and then conspired to rape her, assault her, humiliate her in many ways including urinating on her publicly and add to the humiliation by videotaping and taking still photographs of her being carried around from one place to another and then raped in several places.

Most of the places she was raped and the act recorded were the homes of parents of the football players, all of whom were well aware that their children were intoxicated and many who participated in feeding liquor to minors. The police chief, prosecutor, and town officials in Steubenville are all either parents of the boys involved and/or fuch fanatics about the high school football program that they refused to arrest ANTONE for the crime until the tweets, facebook posts, and videos of the acts were made public nationally, with national media forcing them to do something. That their response was to charge only two of the boys involved, specifically NOT charging anyone who could be tried as an adult or who was in their last year of football at the school.

Evidence was deliberately destroyed by the prosecutor, the superior court judge, and the police chief in order to make the case impossible to prove. The boys who tweeted the video of the girl being carried by her arms and legs from one rape scene to another was taken down, but the hacktivist group Anonymous, after everything went national, were able to retreive the videos and they are freakin' brutal. One guy, who hasn't even been charged with anything, talks about her getting urinated on and raped repeatedly. If I could remember offhand the URL where that stuff is I'd put it in, but you can find it with a Google search.

So it's far more than what this particular story indicates. The girl originally didn't file charges because she and her family were threatened with death if she did. I agree with whatever poster said that the feds need to go in and charge the "town fathers/mothers," especially the police and prosecutors who attempted to derail the case. It's bad enough that these jocks have such an enormous sense of entitlement that they can commit such neinous acts and expect to just get away with it, but it's not surprising when they have parents who use their positions of authority to cover up their crimes.

Another fact that wasn't in this article is that this particular group of boys, several of which have since gone on to college on full scholarships (football, of course) are known in town as the "Rape Crew," and allegedly have done the same thing to other girls. Apparently none of them have been willing to come forward publicly out of fear for their lives, but there are alleged to be at least two, and probably more, victims who have been given date-rape drugs and then gang-raped.

I have followed this story closely since it became public for very personal reasons. Aside from the twitter posts, facebook stories, and video-taping---oh yeah, and date rape drugs weren't common when I was that age---this story is virtually identical to something that happened to me many years ago. Jocks have held a status within the college and high school microcosms that seems never to change. You see it in pro sports as well, with the crimes that NFL and NBA stars get charged with. Of course, there again, it's always the woman's fault. What other crime is there where the victim is referred to as the "accuser," rather than the victim? None, not one. It's only when a woman is raped that everyone, both the public and the media, seem to feel compelled to assume from the outset that they are lying, thus calling them "accusers," as if they have already made up their minds that either the woman is lying or if sex occurred, it couldn't have actually been "rape." Here's the legal definition of rape, for those who don't yet get it: Penetration with a penis or other object in a woman's vagina, anus or mouth, against her will or in the case that she is too impaired to give consent. Period. It doesn't matter if she is drunk. It doesn't matter if she went to third base before she said no. If she says no before that penis or object is inserted into her body, then it is rape. And it's high time that this country understand that.

Really? China is your example. You do realize women rights in China are on a path going backwards don't you?

pagan, you obviously don't know the popularity of soccer in other countries. It is as if not more popular then football is in this country. Watch a world soccer match and the fanatical fans there and come back and tell us how those other countries are so much better.

Soccer, especially in places like Brazil and the underclass in England. Also idiotic. Brazil is a cesspool and someday we will be just like them. Its all "panem et circenses" anyway. (bread and circuses)

I didn't say I admire most things about China. I think we need to "get our game on" to prevail with regards to China. I believe Hu Jintao was a hydroelectric engineer. Our last two presidents were an anti-science failed businessman living in the shadow of his more competant father and a lawyer-community organizer with even less business experience.

Where'd all those manufacturing jobs go again? Where do US students rank in the world in math & science again? Thought so.

I don't know how Brazil got into the conversation, but soccer all over the world is a fanatical sport. Riots in the stands where people are injuried or killed. When was the last time you saw that at a football game?

One of the issues with rape cases, unfortunately, is it is dependent on consent and intent. This is only discernible during the actual event and makes the case wholly dependent on witness testimony. A rape trial may be centered around a victim who has remorse over actions he/she willingly participated in or a misunderstanding of consent by the accused. I do not defend the actions of these boys but neither do I condemn them to guilt of rape until the story (i.e. a trial is held) is fully developed.

Regardless of the rape case, these kids all behaved in a way that is dangerous to them and some issues need to be addressed in light of this case. I work with high school kids. With their lack of experience and the state of their development, the impairment of alcohol will create these kind of tragic situations. I do hope justice is served if the boys are guilty but the broader issues that allowed this situation to occur can be addressed immediately without a trial and are much more transparent.

I don't know about football games, but I remember not too long ago, a baseball fan got beat to death after a game in the parking lot. The girl was 16 years old, so consent implied or not is a moot point.

During the Ravens Super Bowl celebration, Paul.

I can't link it, but google 'stabbed during raven's parade'

Football is an obsession bordering on a sickness. Two words - Penn State. All these sport figure/heroes. Not the best of robe models and it extends from football, basketball, baseball, golf and cycling and any other sport you care to mention.