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John Flesher / AP
Tim LaCroix, left, and Gene Barfield recite their nuptial vows in the governmental building of the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians, Friday, March 15, 2013, in Harbor Springs, Mich. Tribal Chairman Dexter McNamara, center, officiated during the wedding after signing a measure approved by the tribal council that allows same-sex marriages on the reservation.
The head of an American Indian tribe in Michigan signed a law approving same-sex marriage on Friday, joining at least two other tribes nationwide in doing so, then immediately wed a gay couple who had been together for 30 years but never thought they would see this day come.
Dexter McNamara, chairman of the 4,600-member Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians in northern Michigan, and a member of the tribe wed Tim LaCroix, 53, and Gene Barfield, 60, of Boyne City. McNamara read the couple's vows and led the ceremony in English, and the tribe member conducted a traditional tribal ceremony in their language before dozens of wellwishers.
“I’m proud of my tribe for doing this and I love my husband,” LaCroix said. Barfield, who is not a tribe member, chimed in:"How could the world be better? … I'm just ... full of joy and happiness and I love my husband."
A maple sapling, bent into a hoop with cedar, sage, tobacco and sweetgrass tied to it, was used in the tribal ceremony. The sweetgrass was lit, and the hoop was waved up and down over the couple to ward off evil spirits and bring in good spirits.
“To have Tim’s tribal community, which are an ancient people, welcome me into their midst and …that we are welcome as a married couple in a community, I’m just flabbergasted at how good this makes me feel,” Barfield said, chuckling as he later added, “This goes to prove that the great American author Mark Twain was right: all things come to him who waits and doesn’t die in the meantime."
It was not certain the tribe would recognize same-sex marriage: In 2012, the tribal council voted down a resolution, 5-4, to allow gays and lesbians to wed, but on March 3, the balance shifted and it was approved, 5-4. The resolution, which requires one member of the marrying couples to be a tribe member, then went to the desk of McNamara, who figured that if he vetoed it, the legislation would be unlikely to get the seven votes needed for an override.
While he was mulling his decision, McNamara said LaCroix called and asked him what he was going to do. They and Barfield had once worked together for the tribe.
“I started thinking about it, and that’s when I decided that, you know, we all deserve to be happy," he said, "and everybody is happy in different ways, they show their love in different ways, and I decided to sign it.”
The newlyweds said that after McNamara signed the legislation, he received a standing ovation.
"I’ve always felt that there’s two ways to do things and look at things … you believe in equal rights or you want to discriminate," McNamara said Thursday, noting he'd received mainly positive feedback in response to the decision.
Courtesy of Annette VanDeCar, Li
Tim LaCroix holds a feather while hugging Gene Barfield after their marriage ceremony on Friday. Both are part of the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians.
Two other tribes -- the Coquille in Oregon and the Suquamish in Washington state -- have in recent years approved same-sex marriage. Other tribes -- perhaps from five to 10, though there could be more -- have open ordinances that don't define marriage as between a man and a woman, said Matthew Fletcher, a law professor at Michigan State University College of Law and director of the Indigenous Law and Policy Center.
"It's pretty remarkable," Fletcher, a member of the Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians, said of the tribe's action. "I mean Indian Country is mostly rural and insular and pretty conservative, so it's unusual for a rural community like this to sort of stick their necks out like this, but it gives you a sense of where I think we are as a nation in terms of being much more open toward same-sex marriage in a fairly short period of time."
However, large tribes, such as the Cherokee Nation and Navajo Nation, ban same-sex marriage. The Cherokee Nation took action when a lesbian couple sought the right to marry in tribal court. The pair was ultimately successful in 2006 though the ban was imposed, scholars said.
In smaller tribes, such as the Coquille and Suquamish, people know one another and so legally excluding same-sex couples has a more significant impact socially and politically rather than with a large tribe like the Cherokee, who have a big bureaucracy and are aiming to behave more like a nation-state, said Brian Joseph Gilley, a professor of anthropology and head of the First Nations Educational and Cultural Center at Indiana University, Bloomington.
The impact of the Little Traverse Bay decision was unclear, though Fletcher said he thought it would carry weight with other tribes. Little Traverse Bay was an influential, average-sized tribe that has been, along with some other Michigan tribes, "very much in the forefront of some good progressive tribal governance measures in the last couple decades."
"I do think it’s going to be influential," he said of the decision, "and it’s sort of a groundswell building in Indian Country that’s a little bit slower than the rest of the country, but it’s definitely building."
McNamara, who said it was an "historic" day for the tribe, agreed, saying he thought other tribes in the state might take their lead.
“We’ve been a role model, I think, for the federally recognized tribes of Michigan and it seems like we’re out in front -- and not taking anything away from the other federally recognized tribes -- but, you know, it seems like we kind of opened the door for other tribes and I think other tribes will follow," he said.
Nine states plus the District of Columbia allow same-sex marriage, while more than 30 ban it, including Michigan -- where that law will apply outside the reservation. The Supreme Court in less than two weeks will hear cases challenging California's same-sex marriage ban, known as Proposition 8, and the federal law (Defense of Marriage Act or DOMA) barring recognition of same-sex couples.
The federal law applies to tribes, too, said Melissa Tatum, director of the Indigenous Peoples Law & Policy Program at the University of Arizona. It is up to each tribe -- there are nearly 570 -- to decide where they fall on this issue, she said.
"Some tribes have a culture and a history of accepting same-sex relationships and they don’t view it as anything unusual or different and some tribes have, like many states … they don’t have a culture of accepting it," she said. "Just like within the state populations you’re going to get the whole spectrum of attitudes in favor and against it in tribal governments."
Whether a tribal government accepted such marriages was "not just based on changing social opinions but based on tribal culture," she added. "Tribes who take control of their own laws, who make culturally appropriate decisions about what their government policies are going to be, have far and away more successful, more stable tribal government."
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Leave a Comment:
congratulations to the newly wedded couple :)
At this rate of man-to-man marriage; man is quickly becoming extinct by the minute....
There will be far fewer generations of humans in 2050 than they were in 1850....
Is this how Dinosaurs dissappeared?
DocHolliday
how is that happening exactly ? i didn't know that if someone was homosexual they were suddenly infertile.
No, it was combination of factors, most notable among them a meteor strike...
http://library.thinkquest.org/C005824/extinction.html
Seeing that there are 7 Billion people on the planet, I'm not too concerned about extinction, however in the unlikely scenario I'm sure gay people will take one for the team and do what needs to be done to keep the species going. I mean it wouldn't be the first time two people who weren't attracted to each other slept together, and gay DOESN'T mean infertile.
Doc, I would like to see your proof in this. Seeing as homosexuals have been around for quite a long time, I don't see the population declining. The only difference that is going on today that wasn't thousands of years ago is that they are marrying. Marriage does not mean the ability to make life seeing as that is being done by people who are NOT married.
Well said State of Awareness.
Who is the husband and who is the wife?
So Doc if they can't get married then suddenly they will turn straight and start having baby ?
You do know homosexuals have been on this earth as long as heterosexuals ? Cause, you know... they're humans too.
At least try to have some logic in your argument.
the wife is the one that will get pregnant silly......geesh
Doc - comment 1.1 - Did you just come out of a 50-year coma, or what? Humans are reproducing like mad - you just can't stop 'em. Besides, earth could breath a huge sigh of relief, and start to recover, if man ceased to exist.
Trying to see this through hateful eyes so I can understand why people think it's ok for telling others that this is a bad thing.....I can't- I think this couple is only doing what their hearts tell them that is right. How amazing for them that they can be married and live the way they want to. I wish them the best and hope they remain happy together (their happily ever after).
DocHolliday,
Based on the level of education exhibited in your post, I am not surprised that you apparently don't know the difference between "generation" and "procreation." To set your mind at ease, I point out that, since the average life span has been increasing, it is very likely that there will be at least one more generation alive in 2050 than in 1850. That is, unless priocreation ceases entirely.
Wow, there's some ruffled feathers around here...literally! One just flew over my kerboard...lol
You know, some people think Dinosaurs had feathers, too...
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/341948/description/All__dinosaurs_may_have_had_feathers
Wow, thanks Doc, you just blew the whole argument by making one of the dumbest statements I've ever seen. Let me start off by saying that my views have changed in the last few years from opposed to accepting (not necessarily for it, just kind of ambivalent). The reason I was against it was that I viewed marriage as a religious union between a man and a woman, and felt that government really shouldn't be involved in "marriage" in the first place. I personally thought that everything the government did should be civil unions. In which case, I felt that even unions between a man and woman performed by the state would be civil unions. So all marriage's would be civil unions, not all unions would be marriages. I've since backed off that view, swaying to the idea that religion doesn't have a monopoly on the term "marriage".
I say all this just to point out that not everyone that is against gay marriage is necessarily an idiotic bigot like Doc. I'm sure some will chastise me for my views, cuz this is the Internet, but realize, I don't hide behind anonymity. Also realize that Iowa, my state, has gay marriage as legal, and I've slowly grown to support that view.
Interesting how it's the small tribes that have okayed gay marriage. It's much harder to be mean to someone you actually know, and we've all seen how anonymity leads to open rudeness on forums like this where we know we'll never meet each other.
Hmmmm.... I think it will take more than a few minutes. Considering overpopulation is one of our biggest problems, maybe we should encourage more gay marriage (at least according to YOUR outlook!).
my view hasn't changed, its still a disgrace to our race, mankind that is.yes its been around for a long time, ever since sodom and gomorah, see what happened to them, took the whole community with them. gays and lesbians won't be satisfied till they do the same to this generation also!
30 years!!!!! Wow! How many hetero marriages last that long? And these fellows stuck it out when social conditions were even worse than they are today.
Simple, you need to pull out your OT and reread the story of S & G . . . and the events following.
Plain,
Nobody cares about your "views" or what you think about what is in the Bible.
Hey Sarah,
Was concerned you'd gotten a tainted box of wine.
I've got not a single clue about indian/native laws.
Q: 'Federal laws apply' meaning DOMA (?) so tribal marriages are only 'good' in that tribe?, or all tribes? But not in states like Michigan, correct?
Nobody cares about your views either Sarah.
jam with it...it takes two...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mQVljB7JGw
Plain and simple: that's the truth! I will never ever, ever change my thoughts on it either. If God said it's an abomination then it is. It's just a sign of the times, God is coming very, very soon! And btw, just giving an opinion about something does not make one a hater. Funny how the liberal crowd always wants to point the finger at Christians and say how hateful we are, but I see way more hatred coming from the left then anywhere else. how bout this from them "nobody cares about your views"
"Who is the husband and who is the wife?"
jimbozo, the husband is the one who puts the pole in the hole.
I care about Sarah's views! And I agree with most of them.
it's cause sarah's cool...
Yuk, chief muddy waters
The dinos died because of Man Made global warming.
Phoenix - YOu mean to tell me, that suddenly, a penis and an anus create life?! Holy cow.....I learned something new today!!!
And Sarah, very few people care about your views according to what society deems as acceptable. So "OLE'"
Plain N Simple, please go back and
rereadread the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The story has very little if anything to do with homosexuality. It has much more to do with the in-hospitality and distrust of heterosexuals. So stop it before YOU do this to our generation too!Then you better check yourself, Susie Q! I bet you are as much an abomination to god than homosexuals are.
Well good thing I don't post MY views, but rather the law on the matter than huh? But shucks, here I thought some of you were hanging on every word.
I'm hurt, really. Going to cry myself to sleep.
Seriously, learn the difference between a personal opinion and/or personal religion and a fact and/or legal argument. It may save you some headaches. We don't care if you "like" it or have "religious arguments" against it, because those are completely IRRELEVANT. What we care about is the COMPLETE LACK of any FACTS or LEGALITY in your arguments in support of this bigoted legislation.
MyOwn,
I think they're totally separate from most of our federal laws. Not sure though.
Sarah, you are one of the dumbest stupid people that I have ever seen post. Do you ever have an original thought of your own? Or do you take everything from the History Channel and the Science web sites? You probably think that at one point in histoy, pigs had wings, and tasted like chicken. MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF YEARS AGO.
By the way, chicken of the sea, is not really chicken, and buffalo wings, don't come from real buffalo!
Empson13
Actually, over 53% of America (which now supports Same Sex Marriage), believe in what Sarah has posted as well. I think you better do your homework next time. I recommend knowing before speaking.
P.S. SCOTUS will rule that in favor of equal marriage rights. What are you going to do then? Move? BTW... thank you for using your Apple, Microsoft, or Google... all three companies support same sex marriage, so by using their product.....
pj-965429
I bet you are the true abomination. I mean, eating shell fish? What about participating in oral sex (sodomy?). Shall I go on?
P.S. Check yourself. God is not mentioned anywhere in the United States Constitution. The bible is NOT mentioned either, and Christianity is not the official religion. Secular law is higher than your version of gods law (or anyone else's) in the United States of America.
I don 't view your attempt at behaviour modifications as something that society deems acceptable. Once upon a time people with "hysteria" were put in "hospitals" that were essentially prisons. Maybe that could have been you, since you are not in the norm. Sarah is in the norm adnd I respect her views. How can you not respect someone who only wants everyone to be respected?
I'm a liberal, I survive on a diet solely consisting of organic snap peas, and of course boxed wine. Ergo, I have no idea what either pig or chicken tastes like.
But since I'm so stupid, please school me, what IS your legal argument for maintaining DOMA?
pj-965429
Why don't you tell us the legal definition of what society considers to be "acceptable' behavior. Please cite some sources with your comment as well.
WOW! Really? Have you looked in the mirror, lately? Seriously! Even if you don't agree with her view, she is very well spoken. Unlike.... oh, just look in the mirror and search your soul.
Guess some Indians like it up the butt. Yuck!
PJ,
I really appreciated the "dumbest stupid" people part. As opposed to what??? A smart stupid person?
Yes, I do eat shell fish, I love crab legs. Maybe you should re-read my post. I support equal rights and agree 100% with your P.S.
put dinosaur poop in my gas tank to go from point a to point b...a few millions of years ago who knew something would run on fossil fuel...bet they said watch out don't step in that pile of fossil fuel...smell the high octane in that one...
Bob,
I thought you just cut holes in the bottom of cars and used your feet, back than?
SusieQ,
How about this one, nobody gives a @!$%# about your religion and its interpretations???
Maybe it is you, and not Sarah, that needs to lay off of the wine.
Before we make a law or remove a law from the books the first question we should ask is "Does this support and promote FREEDOM". If the answer is no then no should be the final answer. If it is yes then yes should be final answer.
Well I guess for all of us normal people who feel this disgusting and perverted life is sweeping the nation. I guess we can always go to Jamaica, Africa, or one of the muslims countries where this type of life style can easily result in death.
Congratulations to the newlyweds.
While you are at it read Judges 19. It is about gang rape, not homosexuality. The important line is: "Where are the men that came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we may be intimate with them." Judges 19 and Genesis 19.
In Genesis, the two men were actually "Angels" and saved Lot's two daughters from being brutally abused and rape. In Judges 19, the man was human and he sent his concubine out and she was abused and raped until dawn when she was released. She crawled home only to die on the doorstep. Gang rape; not homosexuality.
For proof,
For birds he says 7 pairs, male and female. Why 7 pairs for clean, males and mates if they are are pairs of one male, one female? Isn't it that God knows that some may be same sex? God created Homosexuals and He had a reason and we are not to question why; just accept it.
Sarah... Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Yes, please do. You may think you are normal, but you are not right. I prefer to see humanity move forward.
Sarah, #1.37,
Public Safety imperative, it reduces boxed wine consumption and veganism. Thus bringing the 'commerce clause' into play. (ref: T. R. Oll, esq.)
MyOwn,
You can have my boxed wine when you pry it from my cold dead hands.
Sam,
But than I'll have to study. I don't want to study.
Bob,
God Bless Youtube!
Sarah ;; those were the days of the...troglodytes...cave men cave women...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlRXQEA0yj0
God said to be gay queer fag, Is a sin. Man has turned his back on God. Say there is no God. Even those in government are going queer, I can see that being the kind of people that are in government. It is sad that people that are to lead us the right way are not doing that , But turning there backs on God and be coming ungodly people for there own good not Gods. They may think that there living for God but there not. There ungodly as God said they would. Going to Church like the President and his ungodly flock do is just for show no more no less. Times may not be the same , But the word of God is and all ways will be. Stand up for God and the day the time will come when you will be with him. But live a life of sin and you will die for sure. Sinners do not go to be with God. But i guess that's why there called ungodly. there is a God that loves us , And he will keep his word and one day a new life will be for us for ever. That is if you live a Godly as best you can life.
From a pure numbers standpoint, that just means more women for me. Cool.
So?
Yes... yes, that is EXACTLY how dinosaurs disappeared. Fun Fact: the T-Rex was surprisingly unpopular in the last days of the dinosaurs, primarily because his arms are too short for a reach-around. Ba-dum-tss
huskergal, #1.48,
I don't have a dog in this fight, BUT, even I remember grade school Sunday school.
Yeah, God made everything, but you make YOUR choice of two paths, God or devil.
The Religious types against homosexuality believe YOU made yourself that way by YOUR choice, not God.
So, your post:
God created Homosexuals and He had a reason and we are not to question why; just accept it.
Is incorrect to the religious-types and would say you have not 'seen' the light.
They'd most likely say the devil got you too. Don't believe that, unless you drink boxed wine.
Yeaaaaa let the fag fest begin!
Watch out I spit green goo!!!! But only after wayyyyyyyyyyy too much wine.
Sarah,
You were offline for a bit. Waiting in line for a second tour?
MyOwn,
Even better, SPRING BREAK! Now there's some fodder for the wine jokes.
Sarah,
Warm and Parrot hat, or Home and boxed wine?
Home and boxed wine. I'm still a student, read broke, of course.
Straight from Deuteronomy. Life and death; blessing and curse. Choose Life!
doc holliday -
Can't defend you on this one - you asked and received.
However, I like your avatar and name and I've gotta say: I'm your huckleberry.
hus., #1.63,
And that 'life' they were talking about was 'everlasting life'...your Soul. If your choice was the devil, it was the death of your Soul. This is 4th grade stuff.
No where in any Bible I've heard of said h/s was a 'good thing'. While the O/T does have a rather serious condemnation of h/s.
Logically, you can't say God was wrong, his got that all knowing thing. So if h/s was bad in the O/T, unless God issued an amnesty in the N/T for h/s, it would still be bad.
You will one day. Guaranteed.
Don't they scalp gays?
I know, bad joke, but hey, it's Friday.
So we get to choose between "God", which means spending eternity with ultra-religious republicans (according to them, they are the only ones going to heaven). Or "devil", which means spending eternity in fire.
Uhhhhhh... I'm gonna be honest, both of those options SUCK. I mean, I honestly can't tell you which is worse. It's like two different levels of the same hell.
Well, the fire part would hurt... but at least the company would be fun. So I think I'd have to give "devil" an edge.
Sarah,
You must be feeling really lucky about slipping in prior to the shutdown at WH. I'd incorrectly assumed that was a spring break trip. Was that a class field trip (and did you have to hold hands while walking through).?
MyOwn,
Only because I thought the Secret Service agent was hot.
JM,
Is that "guaranteed" ala infomercials or more like detergent? Because really, that electrical ab belt did NOT work and that was guaranteed too.
mguy, #1.68,
I remember two popular bumper stickers from college:
'Good lil' girls go to Heaven and Bad lil' girls go everywhere'.(....I hear Sarah went to the WH to see SS Agent 'hottie')
'All the best women are in Hell'
The Devil always has the 'Edge'. The Devil has all, but one, of the goodies to give away, for that low, low price of...
Sarah, # 1.70,
ROFL, Good one.
If you read the entire post that I wrote you would see that God does not condemn Homosexuality, but does gang rape. I 'd like to suggest that you read Genesis 19 and Judges 19. They are the examples of the meaning man should not lie with a man as a woman.
Also, I'd like to point out that heaven and hell are here on earth. Your soul lives or dies according to what you do. Jesus says that the only people going to heaven are the ones who do what his Father in heaven wants. That means to live the law even though you are not under the law. Paul teaches this in Romans. Jesus teaches to obey the law- it is in you mouth and in your heart and he reduced it all to two commands: "Love thy father with all your heart, and all your mind, and all your soul" and "Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself."
I have always held the American Indian to a higher regard....until now.
I'm sure THAT will be the straw that breaks their backs.
hus., #1.73,
God does condemn h/s in the o/t correct?
You pasted but did not read my post.
Sarah, # 1.75,
tsk, tsk, ...breaks their backs. Are you hung-over, or just weak minded from lack of real protein.
I expected, ...breaks their...teepee, war pony, eagle feather, war bonnet. Something article appropriate.
No, he does not. Again I suggest you read Genesis 19 and Judges 19. These are the illustrations for men should not lie with a man as he does with a women. Genesis is the first book and is part of the five books of Moses, so the scribe writing this only went by what he thought he meant. However, God doesn't work like that. If something is important, he will say it again. Apparently the scripture wasn't clear enough for man so he repeated it again in Judges 19 and makes it much clearer to the reader, if the reader is not blind. As it is shown only twice, the second is a correction that needed to be made and it also means that 'man should not lie with a man like he would a woman is not a sin as He meant gang rape to be the sin.
huskergal...women were property back then. try reading your book without preconceptions or bias. it will change the way the entire book reads
This is exactly how I do read the bible. I thought, as do the majority, that homosexuality is a sin. Then I studied the bible and have done so for 30 years or more.
@sarah you only post facts? I don't believe this is a fact:
Plain,
Nobody cares about your "views" or what you think about what is in the Bible.
Really? then stay off of the message boards. You don't speak for everybody, do you? I will answer that for you: NOPE.
Kindly refrain from trying to speak for everyone. Please realize that your opinion is not the opinion of everyone. Please realize that your opinion is not fact. Thank you.
Whoa now JeanValjean, there are 100's of tribes out there. Dont lump us all into one group lol. I only looked at this article to make sure it wasnt the Sioux nation that it was talking about.
Don't give up on all of us Native Americans.
Honorable1, as you don't wan't JeanVajean to lump all native Americans together, don't you do the same. Don't assume that all of the Sioux Nation is straight. That is a pretty diverse group that you want to represent.
Your views are based on a fairy tale. So it's kind of hard to care what you think.
How can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you spew such hate filled nonsense. Your views would have been much more relevant in say fifteenth century Spain.
Empson13,
And a penis and mouth cannot procreate either, right? But I bet that doesn't stop you! By the way, are lesbians ok then, since no penis? Also, what about straights? They have anal sex A LOT! This graphic stuff (specifically about anal sex) sure seems to be the rebuke of choice for many of you! What's that about I wonder?!?
"However, God doesn't work like that. If something is important, he will say it again. Apparently the scripture wasn't clear enough for man so he repeated it again in Judges 19 and makes it much clearer to the reader..."
Or, if you have read up on Biblical scholarship you will know that different books often draw from earlier sources and repeat them, sometimes word-for-word, sometimes with slight modification of the story. So, all it may mean is that the reference in Judges picks up on an earlier story/verse in Deuteronomy, or else both books draw from an earlier source. It does not necessarily mean that "God" repeated himself again. And since Man was responsible for writing the book, which prior to being written down was passed along in an oral tradition, then it is very doubtful there is any God in the books but plenty of Man.
Sick!!!!
Disgusting!!!!
the plumming don't even fit!!!
Lord come quickly.
OhWell,
You know, that's the second time today you've engaged me on that level. I'm just wondering why you don't want to engage me about the actual topic???
Because he knows you'd blow his arguments out of the water Sarah.
As I said in the first place, the man that wrote the Torah, mistaken took Sodom and Gomorrah to be about homosexuality. Actually it is not. It is about not following God's word and being unclean. It depicts gang rape, not homosexual relationships. So in Judges, God inspired the writer there to write it clearer and we see it is not just the man they want to be intimate with; they will also abuse and rape the woman.
I wish I had the blind faith in anything to believe a set of stories passed down for thousands of years, translated through a half dozen languages by people who didn't speak those as first languages (mostly) and left in the hands of the largest military/political mess in history for over a thousand years...or maybe not...
Funny you should say this. It is not blind faith but careful studying that taught me this fact.
In Genesis 19, the two "men" were actually angels and they saved Lot's daughters from being raped and abused. Most people do not realize this about Sodom and Gomorrah. In Judges 19, the man was just a man so when he offered his concubine she was taken, abused and raped.
The only command that would be broken here is Be Fertile; Go forth and multiply. Since there are heterosexual couples that can't multiply and they were created by God, and God doesn't make a mistake, it's not a sin. therefore, neither is homosexuality a sin. Today, more than ever before, there are more opportunities and ways to reproduce.
Bio-genesis says that life started by spontaneous generation from non-living matter. It also says that the planet and universes were formed by spontaneous generation from an unstable nothingness. We are to believe that everything about us came about by an unstable nothingness, but believing in God is fantasy. Sheesh!!!!
Don't use anti-gay slurs please, kevin-3086258. You are suspended for a day for violating rule # 5 of the Code of Honor.
I do, unapologetically and irrevocably believe in God. It is religion I have problems with. IMHO, we can not tell each other what to believe in. It is a personal journey and it has to be found by the individual. I can't tell you what your god is like, or what it likes or doesn't like, likewise, you can't tell me what God has to say. If it wants to tell me something it will find a way. Not that I think it whispers sweet whatevers in my ear, but I am shown through example in my life. As far as the Big Bang, the flat out truth is that we don't know....and that is a powerful position to be in, because we do know that we don't know... that is one truth. It is the striving to find the reasons that makes it powerful. Someone claiming to know something and putting it on other people is dangerous, because no one really knows if it is unequivocably true or not. It is heresay. They might be able to make someone else believe, but is it really truth?
I'm not usually the English Police, but come on! It's getting painful to even read the news articles and see the lack of education exhibited by the people posting these articles.
Yup. It's pretty bad.
Congratulations! - may we see more love connections everywhere. There is too much hate in this world.
You don't need to marry someone to have a love connection.
When God commanded that marriage is only between a man and a woman, did God said that because He hate people?
We are in existence to serve God and follow His will. Same sex marriage is against the WILL of God.
You don't agree? Then go to God and try to argue with God. Do you think you will win?
You know Joe....I'll take my chances and wait to see what god's will is when I die. If I end up going to hell, at least I lived my life the way I felt it to be right without placing judgement on others for not living the way I do. At least I will be absolved of one sin of judging others when that is god's job.
Joe, why don't you go find God to make sure you're right? Don't come back until you get an answer.
Joe, I don't talk to imaginary beings, especially those that are irrelevant to civil matters.
Joe, more and more people are coming around to the notion that they don't have to live their lives in fear of fairy tales and superstition, especially when used by one group to berate or decry another.
Sorry to burst your bubble, Joe, but marriage isn't a religious institution. It's a secular one. What you're thinking of is "matrimony".
You can God a fairy tale or whatever else you want to call Him, but He is still going to be there. State of awareness-do you have any idea what hell is going to be like? And it's forever, it will NEVER end! This life is not long compared to eternity. I'd give that some thought. All of you who don't believe in God shoud think about it as well. What if you are wrong and God is NOT a fairy tale?
If you want to believe in something simply because you're scared of some unknowable punishment, that's your business. I'd rather not live in fear for my short but wonderful life.
It won't be so wonderful in hell. Think about it.
Oh I have given it some thought. That is why I am living my life the way I feel is right just like you are living your life the way you feel is right. But going after someone and hounding them by saying they are being immoral and straying from the path, you are committing the sin of judging and casting the first stone when you are not perfect yourself. You have no right to tell people that they are wrong. That is why you, like others, are blinded by your faith. It's good to have but you believe in it so much that you harass and bully others into accepting what you are preaching. Guess what? You can't say that your way is the only true way. But you need to be accepting of all people and let them live their lives. Be concerned with your life and no one elses. It's not your job to save people. Pass the word when one asks, but don't badger, harass and bully. As for my beliefs, that is for me only. You are not privy to my thoughts. I have my beliefs but you don't see me coming on here and spouting off my faith, who I believe in and why I think it is the true path to follow because I don't know that without a doubt. I am open that other religions may have it right, but it is not my place to point to you and say that because you follow a certain religious path that you are going to hell. No one needs that and that is what is wrong with the world. Because so many people think that they are right and others are wrong when there is no proof for or against it.
I for one do not love God because of a fear of hell, neither do I go to church because of a fear of hell. We love Him because He first loved us. Just because Christians quote the bible does not mean we are judging anyone, you really need to think about that!
suseq1591, the problem is many of you quote wrongly or pick and choose the passages that fit nicely in your own limited thoughts. Tell me, what does the bible say about divorce? This might surprise you, but it says that divorce is not a sin. The sin is remarrying. To remarry is the same as adultery and is punishable by death. Now, how many adulterers do you know?
CWater, what kind of a fool believes that the creator of the universe and all things in it is a petty, vindictive, nasty old man who punishes his creations, made in his image, by casting them into hell. Honestly, you simpletons can scare each other into being good all you want, but when it comes to injecting your foolishness into our government and upon other Americans, you really should get ready for some push-back. I don't behaving in a moral, law-abiding, just or kind fashion to be treated for a reward, I do it because it's the right thing to do.
Pedestrian: we only do good because of the conscience that God gave us, some choose to obey that conscience and others choose not to. I wouldnt pat myself on the back too much because there are surely things that you do wrong in this life. you say that you dont believe in God, fine, then dont, but that doesnt take away from the fact that I will give my opinion, and more so when people mock the things of God.
you people do not EVEN know God!!!
Speak for yourself! I do not serve any god. How people can subject themselves to indentured servitude is beyond me.
Who cares? Not everyone believes in your god, nor does your god make or have say in our secular laws!
Do you think I care what your non-existant sky fairy has to say?
That's nice. Prove it!
No such thing as hell either!
Oh,l I have. And it's utter and complete BS!
A Pascal's Wager is a flawed and illogical argument.
And a fairy tale is exactly what he is. Too bad some people can't differentiate between fantasy and reality. But by all means, prove there's a god!
We know he isn't real, that he's a construct of Bronze Age sheep herderes, that people use him as a means of eliciting obedience or belief in their dogma, or that your god is one of the most evil ogre's ever imagined! How's that?
Why is God so unbelievable and an unstable nothingness believable? Science has a hypothesis turned theory that the universes came about by spontaneous generation from unstable nothingness. Scientists also say the life came about by spontaneous generation of non living matter. Science has put forth a sort of proof of the creation theory in the Bible and has done the same thing with the concept of the creation of man put forth in the bible. So there is a strong possibility that the unstable nothingness described by scientists can actually be God. I am not saying it is, but it is something to consider.
Here, I have to agree with you in part and disagree with another part. Religion is man made and religious dogma is taught and held onto; even though it may be wrong. The stories in the bible appear to be evil, but they are not. It takes study (asking, seeking, and knocking) to even begin to understand. Also, one must understand the OT in order to understand the NT. There are over 600 commandments in the bible. Moses reduced them to 10 and Jesus reduced them to 2. Jesus did not abolish the law, he just put it in our hearts and wrote them in our hearts, "The word is near" can be found in both sections of the two testament books in the bible.
Evidence! Or the lack thereof.
Science also has empirical evidence to support its theories.
Spontaneous might not be the right term. But refer to the Miller-Urey experiments.
What "proof" would that be?
Nope. That's just a baseless assumption in an attempt to reconcile science with faith. Doesn't work.
When there is empirical evidence to support any biblical account or claim, them there will be something to consider.
Sounds like god had to revise a few things. I guess he didn't get it all right the first time around.
What empirical proof of an "unstable nothingness?"
If you're referring to the Big Bang (I've never heard it referred as an "Unstable nothingness"), the evidence is the backgrouind microwave radiation, temperature uniformity of the universe, and the red shift of galaxies. So where's your evidence that "god did it?"
I'm curious about your "unstable nothingness". I have heard arguments like this, but have never seen any good explanation. What I know of the late big bang theory is that all the matter of our universe was condensed down into a very very small, almost infinately hot point. Then the space expanded faster than the speed of light (which would be awesome to figure out how) and after a few hundred thousand years the universe cooled enough for matter to precipitate out of the chaos, and light was freed to cruise at it nearly impossible speed. NOW...understand that this is all theory. Also these ideas change pretty much whenever we put the next most powerful telescope up to look (I can't wait for the James Webb to be launched in a few years. It is going to revolutionize everything we know about the cosmos). I'm not trying to knock religion, but look at this. In my searching for personal truth, I found a discussion about the first few lines of Genesis in the old testament. In the original version from the Hebrew (or Aramaic..whichever it was), it said: And GOD said, "Be there light in Me". Even that change, from "let there be light" to "be there light in Me" is huge! Just the notion that the light is within God, not outside It, changes the whole outlook of the Universe. The though that we might reside within God, and He not be on some throne looking down at us is gamechanging. It is small differences like this that make me follow my heart on my own path instead of listening to what other people want to sell me.
The same place your Big Bang starting from an unstable nothingness can be found. Ever hear the scientific hypothesis turned theory call "biogenesis?"
Scientific theories do not use god as an explanation for anything. And it still doesn't prove the existence of any god or that said god did anything.
Scientific theories are just that, theories. We are learning things each day about the universe, but still nobody can prove that the unstable nothingness or the dark energy isn't, in fact God. Nor can it be proved that God is only in our imagination. We do not use the term God, but that doesn't make Him a fairy tale. We do not know much yet about dark energy, but, as it has been revealed to us just recently, we will learn more.
You seem to confuse a scientific theory with the generic use of the term.
Until you can prove that it is god, or at least provide empirical evidence, then such a claim that it's god lacks any validity and can be summarily dismissed.
Man came up with the idea of god/s to explain things he didn't understand. That's quite the stretch of imagination to me!
Doesn't make god real either!
Historically, many tribes openly accepted gay members, and the gay member was also often the one who assisted in the medical care and child care within the tribe. In my American Indian History studies, they never really discussed "marriage" ceremonies for any couples, hetero or homo.
Yay so cool Bright Blessings on their Lives
"you believe in equal rights or you want to discriminate,"
this.is.awesome
We're all doomed anyway, might as well do whatever you feel is right and as long as you please yourself. We are sliding down a slippery slope of war, poverty and disease anyway. If it feels good enjoy while you can! It's going to be Hell to pay later on.
Them Injun heathens are going to hell anyways at least, right?
Hmm. It feels good to me to see loving couples who freely consent to share lives together living in peace. I am pleased when I see people treated equally no matter their color, socioeconomic status, or sexual preference may be, so does that mean we will be sliding down a slope to...hmmm...equality and compassion? Heck, wouldn't that be awful.
You know, most of the poverty, war, and disease come from people being greedy and selfish, judging others, sticking their noses into other people's business, and wanting to take things/land/power/peace/rights from them. It doesn't come from gay marriage...sorry to disappoint you, though.
Ram,
Spot on! I'd vote for you twice if I could!
I can t believe how sick society is becoming..
Me neither. Can you imagine anyone having the arrogance to dictate love?
Well, sadly, you're still apart of it...
Really? I don't see a sick society, just people who are having a hard time adjusting to change.
State of awareness
There is no change here, this $hit has been going on since the beginning of time..
My point is you want everyone to call homos normal and they are not
This is a decision for their tribe to make, and therefore even less your @!$%#ing business than it is when it's a non-Native American couple. Not that it's your business then either.
Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with anyone being with someone they love. Even if everyone was culled under the label of civil unions and the word marriage was never created. But keep in mind that what male homosexuals do in private.....straight couples do as well. I know it's hard to accept or grasp, but it happens. But just because those types of acts are not your cup of tea, it doesn't mean that it is being forced on to you to participate in. And by the way...there is change here. People are getting the opportunity to marry who they want to spend the rest of their lives with. It's alright for people to disagree with it, but they don't have the right to stop others from doing it.
Since the beginning of time? Sounds normal to me. Maybe you are the one who isn't normal. I hope that is true, too. I would hate to think that someone who is so intollerant of others is the norm.
Question: What makes you think that you are normal?
Wow those have to be the two whitest indian I have ever seen! Are you sure they are Native American?
Who are you, Scott Brown?
You don't have to be full-blood to be part of a tribe, and you certainly don't have to be full-blood to value and respect your tribe's traditions. In fact, even full-blood tribe members may disregard their tradition.
I noticed that, myself, crushedu. I think it is worth noting. They are as white as I am, they are whiter than my relaves that are 1/2 native American. I am curious about the tribe and it's bloodline.
Not all native Americans had dark skin. They were almost as diverse as we are now as far as skin coloring goes. There were several different crossings from asia (and europe) and not all the people who crossed were of the same background or culture. These migrations took place over thousands of years... Furthermore, the medicine path is for anyone who feels called to it. I am accepted amongst both the Cherokee and the Lakota. I only have about 1/16th native blood....pretty white...
Just make sure when the time comes that you stand before Jesus in judgement day that you have a very good reason why you went against the Will of God.
God's specifically said that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
people will tremble on judgment day due to fear due to their sins.
Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Jesus paid the debt of our sins by dying on the cross. Accept His saving grace. Turn away from sin. Go back to the fold of God.
And if Jesus was here right now, I think you'd be the first person he would hit in the head with a stick. Your religion is your business--stop telling everyone else to live the way you think they need to. Religion is a private matter between you and your dieties (or lack thereof). Stop demanding everyone else follow your same rules.
I agree with Voice on this. Just because one person finds something immoral doesn't mean that it may be that way to others. Not to mention that no one has a definite or absolute knowledge of what god has planned for us or if he truely exists. If you have a direct link to god where they are telling you exactly what is planned, good for you. Maybe you can give us god's phone number, email or telepathic link so we can get the answers too. But until people pass and face what is beyond this world, no one has the right to tell people whether they are right, wrong, going to hell, going to heaven, will be reincarnated, will be burned for eternity, held in a loving embrace for eternity or face nothing. What if I told you that the Easter Bunny is the one true god and you'll be spending all eternity drowning in a creamy filled egg because you chose to think the Easter Bunny was a false deity? You have no right to judge people. Period. Let people live their lives and if you end up being right in the end....go you. But it isn't your job to control people with your beliefs because you think you are right and everyone else is wrong. It's this type of thinking that is causing all these holy wars and killing innocents. Step back yourself and let people live their own lives.
The thing is Christianity is a relationship. I don't think anybody should be "forcing" their religion or beliefs. Same goes for the Homosexuals. Do what you want but we don't have to agree or get used to what they want! Goes for both sides. I have friends who are gay but I'm not their judge.
No voice I disagree. True Jesus loves everyone but He does not condone their sin. Not any sin. Stealing, murder, adultery, sex outside marriage and the list goes on. You can't make Jesus fit your lifestyle. You are supposed to conform to His.
Voiceonthe left: Why is it ok for you people to tell Christians how wrong that they are for quoting the bible, and its ok for you to bash Christians all day long, every day, me thinks mabe its the unbelievers that are the haters, then again Christians KNOW that the left is the haters! I see way more hatred coming out of the left then I do anywhere else. It's what we stand for that you hate because the bible says that if they hate God, they will surely hate you!!!
I'm on the left and I do not hate Christians, but I dislike Christians telling me that I'm going to hell because I do not believe exactly like they do. Oh yes, I certainly do Love the Lord my God. I love Him above all others.
huskergal: I do not recall ever telling anyone that they are going to hell because they do not believe exactly the way I do. Just the fact that we invite people makes them feel guitly, in fact if there was a poll I bet the majority of you would say that most of the people that have ever talked to you about God, or invited you to church did not even talk to you about hell, only if you brought it up. Of course you if you were totally honest you would admit that.
Finally, Little Big Man comes to life!
Then you must not read many article responses or message boards if you think it's not common, suse. It is said really often, and in my area of the US many who don't happen to believe in God don't say it because they will be persecuted. At one point last year a local message board had many posts encouraging those who are Christian and have businesses to post it in their business windows so that other Christians would know to only do business with the announced owners. They wanted those "atheists and other evil people who need to be driven from this town" businesses to fail so all those who didn't believe just as they did would have to leave. Kids who didn't believe in God were told at school by some of those who did how they weren't allowed to play with them because they were going to hell.
So maybe you don't say that, but believe me, it is said many times in many ways. Your comment that "the left is the haters" is hilarious. Some on all sides are haters and saying a whole group is "haters" because they don't believe as you do is as offensive as them saying you are a hater just because you are Christian.
You didn't say it to me. but my Dermatologist did and a friend and my hairdresser have. It has been told to many of us here on the vine by your fellow Christians. It's out there and I dislike it; but not the people who say it, I forgive them for their ignorance.
God's specifically said that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
Really? When did She SPECIFICALLY say that marriage is ONLY between a man and a woman?
I love when Christians whine about being "bashed" because people tell them to keep their religion to themselves. "Oh, but you gays, you, you, you want everyone to know you're gay." Here's the big freaking difference. If I want you to know I'm gay and I want equal rights regardless of it, that doesn't affect you. You want everyone not only to know you're Christian, but to be a Christian--in fact, the exact same Christian--right along with you. Last I checked, gay people weren't running membership drives out on the street, but Christians certainly seem to be.
In fact, even in my little podunk town, there's a group in our square, literally DAILY with signs about how EVERYONE is going to hell unless they go to THEIR church. Brilliant. Exactly how to win hearts and minds there, folks.
When I advocate for the right to live my "lifestyle" without censure, I don't tell anyone they have to be gay too. When you get on here screaming that everyone needs to follow "the one true Jesus" or "bow to God" or "obey the Bible," YOU'RE the ones who are rubbing your lifestyles into everyone's faces, demanding they behave your way. I'm tired of trying to be polite about it--shove your book, you "special relationship" with the head honcho, and your misplaced sense of self-righteousness straight up your ass and march on home with it where it belongs.
they are from a small tribe called the cheer-ache-ease sitting bull is rolling over in his grave
LOL
Time for a pow-wow.
Wow....where the heck are we heading.....everything is going to be acceptable! Disgusting!
You might want to leave the country while you still can!
We are heading to equality, although some might not want to go there. We are heading toward you keeping your nose out of other people's bedrooms just as I keep mine out of yours. Yes, inequality is disgusting.
They are a sovereign nation, I dont know where you're heading but probably not to Indian Country sp you might as well just keep your lil stink opinion to urself there smarty
the one who will be providing the insertion so to say is ironically named pochamantus
freakin fruit loops!!!!!
f___ing faggots, may they rot in hell
No one's going to rot in hell. All of the shame and blame of religions, mainly those that come from Abraham, are fairly hypocritical and cause most of the wars and conflicts in the world. You are told to not to judge, yet you judge. You are told to love others, but you don't. Western religions are not valid because they don't change people into loving humans. They divide and make enemies by pitting one person against another. All religions are human created, but the best examples of why religion is bogus are the Jewish, Christian, and Islam philosophies. Go figure.
Wether we judge or not doesn't matter. God's judgement WILL matter.
Just for you and the rest of the one's who can't be bothered thinking for themselves...the rest of us got a free pass for using our brains the way HE intended.
Just as a thought, ever considered that people from a nation that was slaughtered and had their religion and culture stripped from them by your book in the name of your God might not think your opinion on the subject matters? Even a little bit? In fact, they might resent your input completely, so perhaps you should keep it in your church where it belongs.
Look at the bright side..if we let them marry, after a couple of years there will be no more Democrates
Unless you don't mingle, you have gay friends, acquaintances, and fellow workers. They just don't tell you because of your attitude. You like gay people, but you aren't told who they are because of your attitude.
According to your logic all democrates (sic) are gay. Right. You have a vivid imagination. Plenty of reblicans are gay. And plenty of democrats (the majority I venture to guess) are supportive of gay rights but straight. (straight but not narrow).
I like "reblicans"...
alur, I dont give an opinion about the subject unless someone starts mocking the things of God, THEN i will give an opinion. I can pretty much bet that if we were on here telling unbelievers that it is wrong to lie, or steal that you would not make that big of a deal about it and tell us that we are hateful and that we are judging people and that we should stop being so hateful and just be more tolerate of them or what they want to do in their own lives. You probably wouldnt even give it another thought.
suseq, that is because lying and stealing does harm to others and that is what most people are against. Harm to others. I don't see how those who are homosexual are doing harm to others in regards to being able to marry. Comparing lying/stealing to homosexuals marrying is like comparing apples and oranges.
idget16, # 17.2,
Don't confuse desire with reality... "And plenty of democrats (the majority I venture to guess) are supportive of gay rights".
SCOTUS is about to decide CA Prop 8. The VOTER initiative PASSED, meaning a majority (50% + 1). CA is a VERY blue state & the most populated. The only poll that matters is the private polling booth poll, not the 'man-on-the-street' polls.
But myownthoughts- times are changing! I live in Maine, considered a pretty conservative state by new england standards and we, along with Maryland I think, were the first to pass marriage equality laws by popular vote.
all joking aside this is going to open a whole new way of life with many implications thereare future adoption questions and children's rights issues . wow sort of like people trying to impose their beliefs on others wow who is playing god now. futures not looking bright
Actually, considering many states have legalized gay marriage, those issues are being hashed over or have already been. Get with the times buddy.
idget16 - maybe you get with some standards and values...."Buddy"
Empson, your posts reflect your standards and values, and from how you talk to people I would say I'm glad I don't know you in person. You don't get to decide what others believe just as you are free to believe as you wish.
tom-898869
FYI: Gay people have been able to adopt for quite awhile now. You don't have to change your beliefs-that's never been what this is about. It's about not trying to take away your fellow citizen's equal protection of the laws!
Jed7 yes, gays can adopt, but not as a couple. If I adopt a kid, and I die, the child goes back into the system unless my partner can manage to adopt. Not fair...
yeah but why should we suffer in the meantime?
What are you suffering from?
Great news. I know it's hard to accept for some people, but those people have gay friends and family members who are entitled to the same rights and respect as anyone else. This is a non-issue for people who understand the gays have always been part of society. No one's rights are take away when gay people get their rights.
Christianity is a relationship not a religion. I agree about not forcing your beliefs on someone. Speak to them but don't force anything. Most people will turn away when they see constant hatred. I do not agree with Homosexuality. I know people who are and they know where I stand. We are not the Judge. Therefore, BOTH sides need to settle down. Homosexuals also tend to be forceful. NOT all of them but most.
Perhaps if your civil rights were being denied then you would be a little cranky too.
Not most of them just some who want the same rights that your brothers, sisters, friends, acquaintances who are gay are entitled. How is giving one group their rights taking away your rights? I've asked this on one of every three posts that I write about gay rights, and I never get an answer. Your rights are not compromised when others are given their rights.
You shouldn't have to worry about your rights being compromised when you are doing the right thing. And stop acting like gay is the new black civil rights, becasue gays don't go through anything close to what blacks went through. gay is not a civil right, it's a lifestyle choice, like your choice of being an idiot. You weren't born that way, you chose to be an idiot.
Like you chose to post rude, obnoxious, and ignorant rants, Empson? If you aren't gay then you have no clue what gays have gone through, and obviously you don't know much about biology.
QuackHead,
So you know most gay people do you?
quackhead, you would be forceful too if your rights were being trampled upon.
all this stuff going on and here we are worrying about people who want to be with same sex its all over tv practiced in college and celebrated all over. you want to keep people out of your bedroom but its kinda hard when your throwing it all out there 24/7 . its like trying to teach my boys about the n word whiles the blacks say it everyday.
huh? Things that stook out in your post that make me think you are an idiot:
"practiced in college" lol. HAHA.
"the blacks" yeah, you keep telling yourself you are trying to teach your boys not to be racist while refering to fellow people as "the blacks".
"throwing it all out there 24/7" You mean people are living their lives without worrying about offending you? Do you get offended by heterosexual couples getting married?
idget16: would you call Tom a racist if he said "The whites"? All Tom was doing was giving an example how some people can dish it out but they cant take It!!!!
Oh, you mean like the ones judging others and trying to keep them from having equal rights? Yep, it does seem those people don't like others having the same rights they do.
gay isnt a god or christian thing all religions oppose it christ you all spew about god while muslim countries kill people who are gay. keep your fudge packing and carpet munching private dont impose it on me . just like you feel we impose God on you
So far I have noticed it's the fearful heterosexuals who bring up what people are doing in the bedroom to debate that it's immoral and shows that homosexuals shouldn't have the right to marry. Look at all the forums regarding this topic and you'll find it's the heterosexuals bringing it up. I have yet to read where homosexuals want to flaunt what they do in the bedroom out in the open. Only that they are demanding the right to marry and receive spousal benefits when their partner dies. I see kissing, but heterosexuals do that out in the open. I see hand holding, but heterosexuals do that out in the open. There are a few situations where homosexuals have been caught in sex acts out in the open but they get ticketed by law enforcement just like heterosexuals do who are caught in sex acts out in the open too.
Hold up- let me get this straight. You honestly believe straight couples do not engage in oral or anal sex? HAHAHAHA! Sucks for you.
How many times have you been forced into gay marriage, tom? No one is imposing gay marriage on you. those who want to be married have had your beliefs forced on them for a very long time, however.
tom...........sounds like you want to convert to Islam so yan can kiil all these "fudgepackers". Good luck and don't you worry about the 5th Commandment.
i can live with that i know gay people also but i just consider them people .what they do they keep private as it should be
They might if people like you didn't insist they can't go marry and live privately. Straight people made the drama on this, not gay people.
@tom.......and I can live with straight people but I wish they would keep what they do private and stop worrying about what gay people do in private.
Another reason indians should've died out.
Racism at it's finest.
Adam...i wish this Indian could find you with a comment like that. There will be a time for all Phucks like you.
chady you are better than to stoop to that level
To say you're against homosexuality does not make you a bigot. Nothing says one needs to agree with the changes society goes thru. We're all allowed (so far, anyway) to have our own opinions.
That being said, give me the name of the gene that makes one homosexual. Until that time, it's a way of life, a choice, IMO.
And now Indian tribes are allowing it - 1 of the few groups for whom I still held respect...
And can YOU give me the name of the gene that causes impotence? Must be a choice.
Nascar,
Native Americans have a history of respecting their gay members-they were traditionally called "Two Spirit" and they were well respected members of their community.
What gene causes left handedness? Or an apptitude for academics, athleticism, or artistry? What gene causes you to be straight? Something doesn't have to be caused by a gene to make a person what they are!