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Subscribe to RSSThe psychiatry staff at Madigan Army Medical Center was not encouraged to overturn diagnoses of post-traumatic stress disorder to save the government money, according to investigation documents provided to NBC News.
The Army previously said it found no evidence of wrongdoing at the Tacoma, Wash., hospital, but had not released the investigation documents until Friday. As recently as last month, the Army said it would not share the findings and denied Freedom of Information Act requests by local media.
The investigation, conducted last spring, sought to determine whether or not the commander of Madigan, Col. Dallas Homas, exerted any “undue influence” on PTSD diagnoses. Homas was reinstated last July and the investigation documents contain numerous glowing reviews of his leadership and no indication that he pressed the staff to consider the cost of diagnosing a soldier with PTSD.
That claim stemmed from a 30-minute presentation given in September 2011 by the hospital’s chief of forensic psychiatry, in which he noted that a PTSD diagnosis could cost the government over $1.5 million in disability payments over a soldier’s lifetime.
The 100-page investigation document contains several interviews with Madigan staff members who say the comment was made in less than a minute and taken out of context.
When questioned about the remark, the commander explained that forensic psychiatrists must take into consideration all factors “that could bear on an individual’s diagnosis,” including financial gain, the document showed.
“... It is clearly being blown out of proportion and used to attack [redacted] and his team,” Homas said. “I have not seen any evidence that concern over saving government money is a driver of arriving or not arriving at a diagnosis.”
In the fall of 2011, some soldiers had complained that their PTSD diagnoses had been switched to conditions like anxiety disorder, which could have affected their medical retirement rating and the amount of their disability payments.
Homas pointed out during the investigation that while 14 soldiers were not diagnosed with PTSD, at least 44 soldiers who entered the medical retirement process were ultimately given that diagnosis.
“If this were about saving money, this section has failed has failed miserably,” he said.
The investigation interviews also revealed that some staff faced tense situations when giving a diagnosis.
“Sometimes some soldiers can get so upset that they might act out in some manner, perhaps expressing threats," the chief of behavioral health said to the investigator. "The easy thing to do is just give the patient what they want. The (forensic psychiatry) clinicians work very hard to do what is right.”
Homas said in his interview that some soldiers made death threats against forensic psychiatrists.
The investigating officer wrote that only two individuals, who were ombudsmen, made “unsubstantiated allegations” regarding the forensic psychiatric process. Both were suspicious of changes to soldiers’ PTSD diagnoses, but did not believe Homas advised staff to consider the cost as a factor.
The investigating officer agreed with Madigan staff that the ombudsmen had misunderstood the context of the Sept. 2011 comment.
One ombudsman said soldiers whose diagnoses were reviewed by the forensic psychiatric team were very distressed upon being told they did not have PTSD. In some cases, medical professionals previously told them they had the disorder.
That ombudsman said their lives had been “turned upside down” as a result, and that some evaluations contained language insinuating that the solders were liars and malingerers.
Though the forensic psychiatry team was essentially absolved by the report, the Army has stopped the practice of using such teams to vet PTSD diagnoses; Madigan was the only Army hospital to do so.
“The fact that the Army had to bring in new doctors to reinstate hundreds of PTSD diagnoses for local servicemembers and that they have implemented major behavioral health policy changes nationwide in the wake of the Madigan cases are clear evidence that problems existed on base in properly identifying the invisible wounds of war,” Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., said in a statement to NBC News. Murray pushed for the investigation into the PTSD diagnoses at Madigan.
As part of the investigation, a review of 431 Madigan cases — some of which had been overturned — led to PTSD diagnoses for 150 soldiers by last October. The Army recently said that Madigan’s variance rate for diagnoses was not outside the norm.
Rebecca Ruiz is a reporter based in the Bay Area.
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The whole issue of PTSD is a case of the "tail wagging the dog"! Mental health providers must give the Soldier the diagnosis they want or face accusations. The diagnosis of PTSD is now handed out on demand. If a Soldier says they have PTSD, then they have PTSD! It is "heroic" to have PTSD. It is not heroic to get any other mental health diagnosis, regardless if that diagnosis would result in being given the appropriate treatment and the same disability pay. PTSD was originally classified as an "acute" anxiety disorder. Over time we will now witness an exponential increase in veterans, 5, 10, 15, 20 years on claiming no improvement in their PTSD. Why would one report they are better if they risk getting their check reduced? Soldiers do not come from another planet where they have an extra integrity gene and they don't all develop integrity simply because it is cited as an Army value. Soldiers are just a reflection of our society.
Magic 8 Ball, do I smell an ass hole? YES
You believe soldiers are a reflection of "our society," chuckie cheese? Where do you live?
Soldiers learn to kill or be killed. They watch their friends be killed and the the fire works they see are a part of every day battle, not limited to a 4th of July celebration.
Lose a few friends in battle, chuckie cheese, a leg or an arm, your hearing or just your sanity, and then say that soldiers who've served their Country are trying to get more from us by demanding the label of PTSD. Until you've fought in their combat boots for the USA, your words don't mean crap.
Chuck- You sound like a watchdog guarding the governments money and one of those that claims "They" pay for every man and woman on Food Stamps, Medicaid and government employees too.
How about every soldier that's been in combat get a comprehensive evaluation from an outside medical facility (civilian)? Getting an accurate, impartial diagnosis of their symptoms is only fair. If the Army doesn't want to cover the damage done to their soldiers they're in the wrong business. Military life is stressful even without the enemy trying to kill you.
If a man or woman experiences severe blast injuries or gunshot wounds then Uncle Sam damn sure ought to pay for the problems they caused their soldiers! Near death experiences and the re-living of those experiences is a life-long issue that will cost the soldiers big money to be treated.
PTSD is real and only someone who has never been in combat situations for years watched their friends suffer and die and had their hearing pounded with the sounds of gunfire and bombs would think that a PTSD diagnosis wasbeing handed out like candy to get more money from the govt. A diagnosis of PTSD marks their record for life and something most soldiers try to avoid. While we are on the subject of money the govt has not fulfilled their own promisesmade to soldiers when they enlist. Do more research on the subject before showing a marked prejudice for the govts agenda to strip all programs to help our vets who have risked their lives suffered extreme conditions for their country and for you.
Chuck,
You're an idiot. And this sounds like another Army cover-up!
I'll agree with that statement, although not in the way you mean it. This reflects the 'corporatization' of America, where people are discarded when their 'value' has been used up in the eyes of the corporate culture. Promised pension? Sorry, can't afford it now, you should have taken more 'personal responsibility' and planned for your future better. Medical care? Same story. As bad as it is when private industry does it, when the military does it they bring a whole new dimension to this. Starting with the lies the recruiters tell to sucker young men and women into joining, on through the lies that are told to the public, the entire military command structure is about not admitting mistakes to protect promotion. What makes this particularly odious is the wrapping of it in 'patriotism' so that if you do question anything, you're somehow 'tearing down America'.
Shameful!
That is EXACTLY what you get when the FOX watches the HENHOUSE
and HEY fuc k you easy money maker fuc king SPAMMER
PTSD and TBI are VERY real and can be demonstrated through S P E C T scan. You would marvel that these young men and women can speak, walk and concentrate on one simple issue when you see some of those scans.... You want proof of the injury, get a S P E C T scan......
Glad I got the hell out of that place when I did. To many "joes" running around on cruches!
Not a wonder that so many of our troops commit suicide.
Chuck-357997
As a former Marine, with the discrimination people face in our society, with any "mental health" issues, I don't see the heroic aspect you are suggesting is out there.Especially if one faces living a life with this condition. Having worked with countless numbers of people who struggled with such problems, including my husband, and other vets, I have not seen what you are suggesting- Vets demanding this type of disability, for a "fat" paycheck. Instead I have seen families broken up, marriages failed, homeless veterans, others denied benefits after years of efforts and treatment they needed. Families loved ones die because of delayed essential treatments. Some suicidal because they hate a life living with constant fears, nightmares, while still others hiding their diagnosis. Because it has caused coworkers to fear them, so they lose their jobs. Even as they try to rebuild their independence. Because others were afraid they would "act out" or "lose control" if things became too stressful.
There is no glorious view given to PTSD in the civilian world, as you suggest.On the contrary, depression is understood and better viewed, not as scary,then this condition. Which brings to people's minds, someone who just might start shooting people because they can't get out of their mind something horrible. So they are walking ticking time bombs. Unlike bipolar or ADHD person.Then You give so little character credit to those who have served our country. While it is hard enough just to get treatment for injuries suffered from battles.
Those who serve, do have to pass tests,physical, psychological exams, in order to join the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. So it isn't quite a true reflection of our society. And they volunteer to lay down their lives, to protect the rest. Call it crazy, or call it a different type of citizen, they are willing to do something the rest in society aren't or can't do. That sets them apart in a small portion through out our nation's history who have taken an oath to serve and protect. Most folks don't even realize, only 6% of the citizens in the 13 original Colonies fought in the American Revolution against the British, and we won our freedom.
So for you to imagine these men and women are going to try and trick their way into cheating their government into paying them money for a bogus disability, after they have fought and lost friends in battle, can only mean one thing. Why, you obviously haven't a clue what a soldier is, in this nation. Known what it is like to wear the uniform and understood the hardships, sufferings and joined the ranks of those protecting the helpless in the history, which comes with it. Never stood up against an enemy to protect your country, nor willingly put your life on the line for
You take for granted, what others have given their very life for, Freedom, Liberties. Do you really think someone who has watched their friends die, and been willing to take a bullet so YOU could continue to enjoy your way of life, sees what is truly of value in life, the same as you do?
Well said, First Lady. Thanks.
Windancer
Excellent Post! Thanks for enlightening the people that are not familiar in regards to service members who choose to serve, from 1776 on. I couldn't have said it better. Active Duty, 1969-1993.
GM StonePipe
A grand morning to you Jack. Was hoping to catch up to you!
The Army does NOT CARE about it's soldiers as they end their time in service. They know you're leaving and they won't have to look you in the eyes ever again. So fudging on your psychiatric diagnosis doesn't bother their shrinks one bit.
I have known several great soldiers who, upon leaving the military were told they had personality disorders when in reality their combat experiences had turned them into unstable, un-productive, ANGRY, compulsive, physically damaged combat vets.
The motive for the Army psychiatrists is simple, budgetary constraints.The Army can't afford to compensate all the men and women who have put their lives on the line serving their country.
But the Pentagons budget problems aren't the problem of the vet that's completely beat down and lost as a result of hitting I.E.D's repeatedly.
PTSD IS REAL. Only the government will try to get out of it, but they created it. The government has destroyed family morals and values. They cater to minorities, illegals, criminals and the poor. The corporations have gotten in bed with the government. Whomever is pulling the strings behind government are to blame. They get a puppet like Obama elected. They ignored votes from troops. There were counties that supposedly did not have a single vote for anyone but Obama. They convinced people on Change and Forward. Abortion is legal, but owning a gun and protecting your family is not. Christianity is being taught as a cult in schools, yet they say the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the United States in ISLAM (happened in Texas and Colorado). CSCope teaching plans used by different states teach that the people participating in the Boston Tea Party were terrorists, and that the criminals that destroyed the Twin Towers are "Freedom Fighters". Piers Morgan, the major media networks and the government ignore true crimes to promote agendas that yank on peoples hearts instead of showing the true problems of the nation and the people. Where is the cure for all of this?
@Numb3rech
Bull manure. They got a idiot like Bush and Cheney elected so they could have this war. And religion is not, and should not be taught in public funded schools. You want religion in school, go to a private chruch run school.
I have never heard so many lies from a lap dog like you before. Yes you lap dogs do tell a lot of lies, but right now you won the ribbon for this past week of telling lies. Does it make you feel more important when you lie? You mention religion, well isn't lying against your religion?
The cure for you is to get back on your meds, you really need them.
And to all veterans, THANK YOU FOR SERVING.
SallyAnn- bunch of numbers
Your well worn out phrase of
is much akin to Takaneka. Try not to be so anal retentive. Your "platitude" of THANK YOU ... does not coincide with your beginning statement and bespeaks of "lip-service" to veterans, however, your thoughts and beliefs are contradicting. You can belittle a political candidate, but don't bad mouth service members or veterans.
Also, see how Comment #7 addresses the issue in a clear mature method without calling people names.
Sally Ann, before you go shooting off your mouth you might want to check out C-Scpope and a couple of other systems that are being infiltrated into our schools. I agree that religion for religions sake should not be taught in public schools, only in the context of history and or current events. Trouble is, that C-Scope contains an entire chapter on the Muslim religion. Kinda blows the religion in schools out the window now doesn't it? How's your BS taste now? Being the lapdog of the left, I'll bet it's yummy.
From one who woke up lost count of times with sweat-soaked sheets and 1st wife sleeping on the couch, PTSD is real. I'm glad it's finally getting attention, and while it is far from perfect, it's a vast improvement from what we had after Viet Nam, which was nothing.
OK idiots - what does curriculum have to with PTSD diagnoses being "changed" after assignment of the INITIAL DIAGNOSIS?
RELIGION DOESN'T AFFECT PTSD - only combat experience affects PTSD. Stop trying to blame everything on Obama when IF there is blame to assign, it BELONGS on the goddam SHRUB who started the whole fiasco.
It is so sad to see civilians, who sent their soldiers to combat, or supported leaders who did, even on a controversial military action like the invasion of Iraq, are now turning around and kicking their soldiers. What a bunch of jerks some Americans have become...or have always been! Those who kick people at the bottom, including those who do the crummy work of following orders that send them to hell or death, are those ones who are going straight to hell!
Somebody said, "For going out there and risking your life ; for following orders, that you did not choose, that put you in harms way everyday ;for watching friends and colleagues get blown up or injured severely ; for being away from your family and friends and all that is comfortable to do your job, follow orders or defend your country...you deserve a golden bed pan if necessary!"
If soldiers, who risk their lives, need to pressure the system to give them a diagnosis for a better pay...what does that say about the system? Really!
If America was forced to pay its soldiers at least what CEOs make...these CEOs and cronies in Washington would not send our young men and women so easily into harms way!
If we don't help the veterans now, somebody pays the price at home.
My father fought in the Korean war. Then he completed 20 years' military service and went to Vietnam twice. A hero? In some ways, yes. But he became an alcoholic drinking at the NCO club on every base we lived on. He beat my mother up so much and threatened his own kids lives to scare and intimidate her. He became a mean man. Finally after 20 years in the military, he got drunk and killed himself alone in a hotel room. He had no joy, and neither did his family. My father was a man who the military rewarded as a great man and a great soldier.
And this is happening today in the military to active-duty soldiers and to too many veterans. If we don't act to treat this illness, society pays the price. Is that the kind of country we desire?
My husband fights his demons on a daily basis with grace and fortitude--3 Tours in Vietnam, a LRRP and 4 Purple Hearts, concussed fractures neck and back, shrapnel embedded in his legs, flash burns of the eyes. His PTSD is very real and for years he played the mano mano macho man baloney, until he was so miserable of living he finally admitted to himself he needed help--he receives excellent care from our local VA Clinic, Ft. Myers--which is not the case at other VA facilities around the region/country.
My 94 year old daddy, served in WWII and Korea, retired Maj. USAF/ArmyAirCorp once told me that he witnessed things that no human being should ever see or do. He never speaks of the horrors, only very rarely will let let something slip. All my life with my Pops, he's been sad, and wistful, I truly believe he suffers from the memories and PTSD but deals with it as men do of his generation--most stoically and silently, somehow its unmanly to admit the miseries.
To deny that our military personnel, when asked to go to war or being placed in war like environments, suffer immense damage is beyond shameful. No body that experiences combat can ever really suck it up, now can they?
100% of PTSD diagnosis are false. Veterans know and they demand it so they have income for life and many benefits to the expense of taxpayers. They all lie about their PTSD and all clinicians, as well as politicians, know this and accept it as war expenses. It is a social injustice to diagnose our soldiers with this diagnosis. Soldiers are first to be blamed for faking this diagnosis and government second for punishing clinicians who are courageous and academic in their heroic attempts not to give such diagnosis. Soldiers are exposed to frightening experiences but almost all of them do not have PTSD.
i have ptsd......screws with you and makes life a living hell. ever get scared to even leave the apt?
Typical American inner city neighborhoods see far more combat than troops do in Iraq or Afganistan and how come we don't see a bunch of gang bangers crying about stress syndrone? Because nobody's going to give them nothing. It's called being a man. Time for you to grow up and become one.
typical gangbusters don't usually LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO GET THE EQUIVALENT OF PTSD.
Now take your bulls hit and move on down the road to where someone will listen to it.
My courageous uncles that served during WWII saw some of the worst result of the combat for many years, but did not suffer from PTSD so far as I ever witnessed during my childhood. In fact, they were highly successful in carrying on with their lives, saved a great deal of money and enjoyed this life to its fullest. So, I am perplexed by the overly abundant diagnoses of PTSD.
Except that the United States declared war conclusively against the AXIS powers. The enemy combatant was clearly defined and readily identifiable.
I believe that the pointless combat - the lack of clear resolve provided to our courageous soldiers, and the fact that our economy is terrible, where many have experienced home foreclosures, joblessness is the basis for the hopelessness, and reality that though these things are happening at home...they must still conduct their duty regardless or their families go hungry.
"Why are we here?" "What point is this mission?" "Do Americans appreciate our service?" are all valid questions that raise doubt about how solid the US is in esteeming our enlisted.
Gone is the meaning behind the soldiering when a nation decidedly fails to declare war against the enemy expected to be defeated.
In this situation, the onus is on the soldier.
My grandfather as well served in the army and replaced the Marines first division on the Japanese Island of Peleliu when the marines retreated from it. Some of the most horrific combat seen ever. They learned how to burn the Japanese out of the caves by pouring gasoline into them through long pipes. My grandfather would not have taken a handout nor lowered himself nor his pride and honor to ask someone to give him something. He would have starved to death first, before he accepted a handout. Seems soldiers today feel very differently. Maybe it has something to do with fighting defenseless third world archaic enemies. If you go punch a five year old kid in the head you would probably feel pretty depressed about yourself as well.
The returning vet in the late 60's didn't have a piece of cake, either. The public was set against the Vietnam military action (it was never a DECLARED WAR) and some of the more traumatized service members who had served on what amounted to "the front lines" developed what was called "battle fatigue" - thing was that with that institution "The DRAFT", there was an essentially never ending supply of "fresh manpower".
Everyone who goes to war has some form of PTSD, the only question is how much are we going to pay them. It's an entitlement society now and everyone is entitled. I bet if they shot you for treason if you acted out of line you would be suprised at how fast PTSD would disappear. Everybody is sick, and everybody is discriminated against nowadays, they just are.
typical government----screw the guy the party of NO sent off to fight "shrubs needless war"----MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!!!!!!
Since there is no draft, shouldn't a grown man or women decide if they can handle the rigors of combat before they sign on for the job and start receiving the benefits? I mean come on, it's like people who complain about their job constantly yet never apply or attempt to get a different job. I guess they thought they got paid just to sit on their butt. Mind boggling.
yah know famous anus - it might be preferable to NOT have "military actions" on an ENDLESS BASIS.
I'm in favor of a year over year 10% budget reduction for the Dept of OFFENSE (<- sic, I meant it) and in 4 years we will STILL spend more than the next FIVE countries COMBINED
All you idiots who haven't been there, seen these guys or worked with them from the medical and mental health care side shouldn't even say anything....these men and women are a reflection on society, and if you can get a check for the rest of your life over subjective findings, people will do and say anything...screw integrity! Most of the soldier I worked with had mental and behavioral health issues long before the Army decided they needed a warm body and ability to shoot a rifle...50% VA disability for a PTSD diagnosis, why wouldn't you do whatever it took to get that check FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE...so what Madigan did was take it ALL under advisement, and if you were a cook in Kuwait, well maybe you didn't get PTSD like you want everyone to believe...it's a sad situation because of the total lack of integrity because of money...probably even worse for the Guard and Reservists because most of them went on orders because they had no job...or made more money while on Title X active duty orders...and realized they were going back to their minimum wage job...sad...and they should be ashamed that those who truly do have PTSD will get grouped in the same group as the freeloaders...
hey "kansas" - you BEEN THERE? IF NOT STFU. The actual SERVICE RECORD and military "job classification" have more than a little to do with it (oh, and the "cook" job has been pretty much eliminated in the "modern Army") Now I'll admit that it's been some 45 years since I served, but the BASICS are still the same. SOME of these guys have done 4 or 5 or 6 tours. The GRUNTS see the majority of the COMBAT and experience the majority of the stress. THESE applicants are generally GRUNTS - foot soldiers. I'm in a language class with a wife of a armored vehicle officer who is cross training because he can't handle combat due to injuries suffered from IED action.
PTSD treatment for Veterans found ineffective.
Eli Lilly made $70 billion on the Zyprexa franchise.Lilly was fined $1.4 billion for Zyprexa fraud!
The atypical antipsychotics (Zyprexa,Risperdal,Seroquel) are like a 'synthetic' Thorazine,only they cost ten times more than the old fashioned typical antipsychotics.
These newer generation drugs still pack their list of side effects like diabetes for the user.All these drugs work as so called 'major tranquilizers'.This can be a contradiction with PTSD suffers as we are hyper vigilant and feel uncomfortable with a drug that puts you to sleep and makes you sluggish.
That's why drugs like Zyprexa don't work for PTSD survivors like myself.
-Daniel Haszard FMI http://www.zyprexa-victims.com
*Tell the truth don't be afraid*