No he isn't! He is trying to prevent the stupidity epidemic from spreading! If enough people see prosecutions for some of the things people post on line, then maybe people will be thinking twice before they open mouth, touch with fingers and Tweet (or whatever)!

Go DeWine !

Agent0000000007

Did you read the article?

These "boys" saw a girl who was not in her right mind, raped her, then bragged about it online (providing great testimony against themselves).

Then one of these other "girls" threatens the life of the victim.

What exactly do you disagree with here?

Do you think its should be OK to sexually assault someone without their consent?

Do you think it should be OK to threaten someones life?

Where is the overreaching?

Was this girl stupid enough to get so drunk she couldn't defense herself? Absolutely (and yes she should be charged with underage drinking), but does she deserve to have any harm befall her? Absolutely not.

She broke the law drinking, which is entirely separate from her being a victim. There were two crimes committed, that are not linked (they just happened to occur at the same time). Under age drinking - which she is responsible for, and separately, rape, which those "boys" are responsible for.

There are many, aside from the rapists themselves, who are responsible for this horrendous mess. How can we stop this deifying of a bunch of kids who throw a ball around. How can we change this attitude that players on a sports team (high school to pro) are so important that we support them over a victim of a vicious crime?

It's stunning that, still, women (and girls) are not respected and, sadly, women (and girls) don't seem to respect themselves. Why do we not teach our boys NOT TO RAPE, and why do we not hold ALL those involved in this - owners of the home where this party took place, the coaches, the persons who supplied the alcohol, the other kids who watched, took and posted videos - responsible, also? This is definitely a "teachable moment," and it seems some of the adults in this sad little town need to learn a few things, too.

Mr. DEWINE needs to take CONTROL OF THIS SITUATION. Where is the CLEAR MESSAGE DEWINE? DO SOMETHING great. Do SOMETHING Right.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO HOST OR FOR YOUR HOME TO BE THE HOST OF UNDERAGE DRINKING. Proscute.

The parents of all involved should be CHARGED for CONTRIBUTING to the DELINQUENCY of MINORS. The PARENTS OF THE 2 Boys FOUND GUILTY, THE GIRL victim, her FRIENDS and The 3 BOYS Who TESTIFIED Should BE CHARGED with CHILD ENDANGERENMENT for ALLOWING THEIR CHILDREN to DRINK and to be OUT IN THE STREETS ALL HOURS.

(I have a 17 year old so do not tell me that this should not be the case)(I take full responsibility for what my child does but I am an involved parent.) When I saw the sign outside the high school that says "PARENTS WHO HOST LOSE THE MOST" I believed it.

IF the PARENTS go UNCHARGED it will be like all of the kids involved Who go Uncharged. Which will only spark more THREATS. More OUTCRYS and UNRESOLVED ISSUES.

Some people really seriously think these boys do not deserve what they got. With photos, testimony, text messages and Eye WITNESSES That Saw Them SMACK THEIR PENIS on HER and THREATEN to PEE ON HER. Really????????

When I saw those boys shake and cry it only made me think THEY NOW FEEL HOW SHE FELT.

It is OBVIOUS that the TEENS SURROUNDING THIS SITUATION and the STUPID 20-SOMETHINGS at CNN will blame and THREATEN a victim BUT not the ONES who MADE a DECISION to TREAT ANOTHER Human in the manor that they did.

Great point. You certainly "can't fix stupid".
I think much of stupidville has swallowed too much tater salad which as a result has clouded their judgement, causing them to do stupidville things. The Peter Principle is certainly in effect in this town in which everyone has reached their level of intelligence (which obviously registers at the lower end of the brain scale).
Stupid is as stupid does.

They tried to intimidate the victim so she would be afraid for her safety and perhaps retract her statement. Witness intimidation = crime.

I am sure the girls were not mature enough or smart enough to think their actions would make her retract her statement. They are just a part of the mob mentality. And the mob is condemning all of Steubenville. Not everyone in Steubenville is a part of this. Many of them did the right thing when they asked for DeWine to get involved (and the Steubenville police department is the group that asked) so as NOT to have the appearance of bias or inpropriety. And many of the fine citizens in Steubenville support the rape victim, and are happy the perpetrators were found guilty...The ones that should be held accountable are the ones who witnessed the event and did nothing to stop it. The ones who spread the incident via social media. And the parents who hosted the event. I would hate to have the rape victim charged with anything. She's the one who has been punished the most. I'm afraid that if we don't learn from this tragedy that it will keep repeating itself. ~ Been there.

Agent, Dewine is doing the right thing, and you trying to deflect the wrong done to this girl is typical of what is wrong with male society. These boys boys got off light IMO! By the way, using your logic, everyone involved should then be charged with under-aged drinking. But I am guessing you don't want anymore punishment heaped on the shoulders of those poor boys.

As the girl said to her friends in a message, "I can't remember, I think I was drugged". That's probably what happened and I heard some guys do slip drugs into girls drinks to take advantage of them! It's disturbing the people who support these rapist and violators. Maybe these guys will be raped while serving their time and they'll get a taste of what they've done to who knows how many girls!

Mike Dewine is just doing his job. At least he is trying to instill some integrity into all this crap!

From one Ohioan to another, Good job Mike!

I grew up in a town like Steubenville on the Oregon coast. Football Friday nights, booze after the game. Just on a normal weekend, underage drinking to the max, drunk driving, fights, sex, kids will be kids. Aids hadn't started yet, so that was good. And only now and then, would people die in car accidents. Although one time these two couples drove a car into a lake five feet deep and they all drown, they were all to drunk to get out of the f&#king car. One of them was my girlfriends best friend, they had known each other for about 10 years. We woke up that morning and she was gone. Of course it was alcohol related. Every body was shocked at all the dead kids, but back drinking the next weekend. With all the alcohol, the young people don't have a chance!!!

but when drunky gets her license she might get into a car and kill some innocent couple driving home or a kid on their bike since apparently underaged boozing is ok with you and Dewineo.

All I can say is WOW. You must work at MSNBC, you are great at making up a scenario that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Agent000000007:

Please let's not equate the victim's underage drinking with the perpetrators' assault and rape of the victim. True, both events are defined by law as crimes, but they are fundamentally different from each other.

Nor should we traipse off into fantasy-land by imagining what the under-aged drinker 'might have done' as a result of her drinking; people cannot and should not be incriminated for what they 'might do'. Imaging what someone ' might do' is in YOUR mind, not in hers.

Nonetheless, as tragic as this entire event is, it is also a forceful reminder to today's young people that there comes a time when they have to endure the consequences of their actions. And this one is a hell of a lesson for all concerned.

honestdebate said to Agent;

All I can say is WOW. You must work at MSNBC, you are great at making up a scenario that has absolutely no basis in reality.

Judging from Agent's past posts, he's not even close to what you just said, actually comes closer to your taste in news preferences.

This DeWine character is the poster boy for prosecutorial overreach. Would still love to see the girl charged with under aged drinking

Underage drinking is a misdemeanor offense. If you charged her, you'd would have to charge everybody at the party too.

Rape and sexual assault is a felony.

The two boys got what they deserved. Hopefully the fifteen-year-old who sent threats on the internet will get what she has coming to her too.

but when drunky gets her license she might get into a car and kill some innocent couple driving home or a kid on their bike since apparently underaged boozing is ok with you and Dewineo.

Not every teen who drinks at a party, or even drinks too much at a party ends up as a life-long drunkard.

She is 16. She was foolish. She was not a criminal, and nothing she did excuses the actions of the two convicted boys.

Agent0000007:

Charging people with ridiculous crimes while ignoring the crimes committed by the victim is his job?

Ridiculous crimes? statutory rape is a ridiculous crime? Well, I my guess is that's the only way you can get a woman to agree to have sex with you - get her drunk first.

Gumps I think you may be on to something there. After reading your post it came to me that it would take someone like those two "boys" to stand up for them.

These convicted boys are victims too...as surely as they were indicted and found guilty for barbaric behavior, so too should the whole culture be that promotes alpha male privilege at the expense of others, especially girls and women, be called to task.

The behavior of the two boys/men and the mob mentality of their video-ed social peers are symptoms of a much larger cultural disease that for the most part goes unchallenged and is even celebrated at every sports events, in war and in the religiously rationalized patriarchal and machismo mindset.

But culheath, You can't put none of that in prison.

culheath, While I absolutely agree that there is a larger societal issue here, I just cannot bring myself to characterize these "boys" as victims. They were willing participants in a culture that provided them extraordinary status and privilege. When they made the conscious choice to abuse that privilege, they lost the ability to then claim status as a victim.

Granting these individuals "victim" status insults the real victims of these sorts of crimes by placing the abuser on the same level as the abused. Days and days of media attention has been spent on how the lives of these two poor RAPISTS lives have been ruined, with about 6 seconds of attention paid to the future life of the victim.

Our secular, liberal society is a petri dish of misogyny. Porn is so pervasive on the internet, these young men probably have no idea what an intimate relationship is and believe that all girls are whores. The girls think that sexual liberation combined with libation gives them power to be just like one of the guys. The parents are clueless. All of the students, all 600 of them, who partook in this shameful behavior should, at the very least, have to perform community service and attend a class on human dignity and compassion. The school administrators obviously condone and provide the perfect environment for this sick mentality to grow and flourish. Time for school vouchers and an end to socialized education.

joemike, you're right on.

joemike404

culheath, While I absolutely agree that there is a larger societal issue here, I just cannot bring myself to characterize these "boys" as victims. They were willing participants in a culture that provided them extraordinary status and privilege. When they made the conscious choice to abuse that privilege, they lost the ability to then claim status as a victim.

I hear what you are saying...and I agree that their victimization to the larger cultural issues I was speaking to does not remove any personal culpability for their choices, but in the same way that they are indeed victims of their upbringing, we all are victims to it. They will be made examples and hopefully will gain personal perspective from it; just as hopefully, the rest of us will as well.

-------------------

journal journal

But culheath, You can't put none of that in prison.

Prison is probably the worst way to try to improve society.

Go go AG Mike Dewine! He is NOT finished with Stuebenville. Especially toward the uncooperative 16.

More will face prison. Current careers are destroyed. There were coaches, parents, and local prosecutors who conspired the cover-up.

Bright futures are forever destroyed. Both the victim (who is not blameless but is a victim nonetheless) and the convicted will carry the repercussions of this event for the rest of their lives.

Everyone involved - from the provider of the booze, to every underage drunken partier, to "friends" who stood by and did nothing, to adults who orchestrated the cover up - they should all hang their head in shame.

Ah! Steubenville youth! The future of America. Their parents, teachers and coaches must be so proud!

Valerie, no 16 or 17 year old truly understands what an intimate relationship is. Learning to engage in, manage and thrive in a mutual, egalitarian, intimate relationship takes years and years of practice; and most of us will never get it quite right. It doesn't have anything to do with secularism. It doesn't have anything to do with liberalism. It has to do with the maturation of relationship skills. It has to do with coming to understand that intimacy and sexuality are connected but not the same thing. Religious conservatives are hardly a pristine model for intimate relationships based on mutuality and equality. You are attempting to inject a political element to this discussion that has no place and adds no value to the topic.

I think you are all missing the point of the article. The article states that two persons sent threats to the victim after the fact, threatening her life. That is illegal in the basest form. Lack of parenting, mob mentality, whatever you want to call it. It is illegal. And it needs to be stopped. If it takes a couple of examples, so be it. The victim deserves some peace. Sad fact is, her parents will probably have to move at achieve it. She should be able to walk the street with her head held high. That is not what this town is teaching.

Missing the point and making irrelevant remarks is the point of posting for most. I thought everyone knew that.

Were the boys charged with under-aged drinking? If not, why should the girl be charged with it?

Here we go again....YES she was under age & drinking....that DOES NOT EXCUSE any of the sh!t these people, including some on this page are doing to her or are saying about her or to threaten her....SHE IS THE ONE & ONLY VICTIM in this incident...my question is how many more are there that did not get reported...

Prosecute them to the fullest extent. Its time for adults to stand up and stop this crap, youtube is littered with Videos of Kids bullying and beating up weaker kids. Treat them like adults and hold their parents accountable.

This is the dirty underbelly of Social Media, its not reality to some kids so they do really dumb stuff.

Blame society? You fools. Society is merely an accumulation of everyone's actions. The concept of blaming society instead of the criminals is just a defect of the minds of those who don't want to be accountable for their own actions. It's a copout. It's mentally lazy and repugnant.

Tommy6860

honestdebate said to Agent;

All I can say is WOW. You must work at MSNBC, you are great at making up a scenario that has absolutely no basis in reality.

"Judging from Agent's past posts, he's not even close to what you just said, actually comes closer to your taste in news preferences."

Tommy if you haven't caught on by now, Honestdebate" do not come to MSNBC, or NBC as it is known by those with a brain, to have an "honest debate", he comes here only to demonize liberals and NBC which he has been brainwashed into believing is the "liberal media". What he fails to realize is that there is no "liberal media" except maybe Democracy Now or The Nation Magazine. If he was anything other than a troll he would actually hang out on sites that fit his political tastes more closely, but since his only purpose it to attempt to sway public opinion by coming here and demonizing all media that doesn't espouse the extremist rightwing agenda then you can rest assured that he is nothing more than a right wing troll who is paid to spread propaganda. Claiming all media sources that don't fit the narrow conservative world view as "liberal media" is a very old conservative tactic used in a very lame attempt to drag the media over to their twisted way of thinking, it has worked to a certain extent over the years but people are finally starting to catch on to the trick because they realized that all national news outlets are controlled by the very same corporate sponsors who basically have a say in what is said.

2 people just get found guilty of abusing a girl and then 2 other girls thought it would be ok to threaten the victim? Did they think no one would notice? Come on that is the definition on stupidity.

Valerie-2245184

Our secular, liberal society is a petri dish of misogyny. Porn is so pervasive on the internet, these young men probably have no idea what an intimate relationship is and believe that all girls are whores. The girls think that sexual liberation combined with libation gives them power to be just like one of the guys. The parents are clueless.

Valerie, so you think if we were all conservative Christians that this would not have happened? Like conservative catholic priests who have been raping kids for hundreds of years? Like conservative evangelical preachers such as Ted Haggard who snorts meth with a gay hookers fist in his butt? Or conservative politicians like Mark Foley who sends sexual text messages to underage boys?

Boys and men, throughout the centuries, have been using alcohol to get girls drunk and take advantage of them. Yes it is wrong, very wrong, but it is not something new nor does it have anything to do with liberalism or feminism or the secular nature of American society. In fact it is more a symptom of conservatism's view that women are lesser than men. Take for example a quote from CPAC when Scott Terry, a direct descendant of Robert E Lee, was corrected by a woman who was listening to his rant. Terry said, and I quote, "I was unaware that it was part of the republican legacy for a woman to interrupt a man in public". This is the very attitude that the very conservative town of Stubenville Ohio has towards women and this is the reason they treat women as nothing more than sexual toys who are supposed to be quite, barefoot and pregnant.

It's sad that this was two girls, women have got to start getting on other women's sides. I worry that these two girls will spend the rest of their lives thinking that a woman who gets raped deserves it.

Blaming society, culture, etc. is a circular argument and fails the test of logic. Society is a compilation of people who have various cultural and ethical standards, and act respectively on those values. Therefore, to commit a crime would promote heinous and illegal tendencies.

In other words, a criminal cannot be pitied for promoting the same culture on which the crime is blamed, even in part.

Agent.... - From reading your posts you are of the opinion that the "boys" shouldn't have been charged with rape because the girl wasn't charged with underage drinking. It's amazing how people can rationalize one criminal should be negated by another criminal act.

The problem with charging the girl with underage drinking is that it will be hard to get a conviction because she has become something of a poster child for the victims of such crimes. The tide has turned on the football team and the town's attitude that the boys were "above the law" and that the "boy's were just having some harmless fun".

Would still love to see the girl charged with under aged drinking.

Agent000000007 - you are obviously a 16-year-old boy who is living vicariously through these two football players. OK, let's charge the victim with underage drinking. However, if she is charged, then the boys also have to be charged. That time can be added to their sentence.

Deborah Cox,

Im sorry Deborah, but Im tired of stupid comments like yours that express your anger, but are completely false. Boys should be taught not to rape? Um, we are all taught that from a very young age. Every school I went to from elementary to college had something on not harassing women. We all know we shouldnt, the problem is, there will ALWAYS be guys who do. Teach women to be safe, create ways to make them safe (my college would send our campus cops to escort women home free of charge) and greatly punish the men who do rape. Thinking boys are not taught enough not to rape, is just flat out wrong.

And no, we should not charge the girl for underage drinking. This would make it harder for rape victims who were drunk. If she was afraid she would get in trouble, she may have never pushed harder for justice. Just like you cant get in trouble for calling 911 if your friend is overdosing and you took the drugs too (they dont want people afraid to call for help), you cant punish someone for such a minor crime, that could ultimately make it so the rapists could rape again.

The people blaming the victim are the very people who would turn the tables in a heartbeat if this was their daughter. Underaged drinking may be a crime, but in no way is it an excuse for the harm this young victim endured. The victim has suffered enough and will continue to do so later in life. No one deserves to be raped for any reason regardless if they are drunk or sober. Charging this young woman with underage drinking would be no different than blaming her for the attack.

Put yourself, wife, girlfriend or sister in the shoes of this young victim. Now how do you feel about charging her for underage drinking???

Hey Mr Burns...I thought I was safe with a friend whose house party I attended at one of his relatives. Until I woke up the next morning in his house barely able to move at his house. I had no idea how I got there because I don't remember driving. Turns out his cousin drove my car to his house, where I was drugged and brutally raped that night by my friend. That explained all the bruising on my back, legs, thighs and arms. Yet to this day...3 1/2 years later, I still do not remember anything...except for the two weeks of dealing with a body that felt like I had been run over by a truck. I only told 3 people...my 2 best friends and a former co-worker that still hung out with him and had also been at the party. It was the former co-worker that found out I had been drugged. He knew I was not a big drinker so he decided to do some investigating of his own.

So now how do you teach women? Tell them not to drink alcohol and trust no men? It goes back to punishing the perps...that is where the responsibility lies...no with the victims!!!

You want to know what Agent 0000000000Loser REALLY is? He's the dorky fat boy who played towel manager for his football team and claimed to be a MEMBER of the team. He's the guy who told EVERYONE the football team LOVED and ADORED him while they were really running him down and putting him down at every moment. But, you know what? THAT DIDN'T MATTER BECAUSE HE HAD BRO CRUSHES ON ALL OF THEM! They were his gods. However, he DID notice how the girls treated him like a leper because he PRESENTED himself like a creepy letch and he decided he HATED them. And once he graduated high school his loser streak didn't stop, because he moved into Mom's basement, began a lifelong career of figuring out cheats for first-person shooter games so he could make lame YouTube let's plays NOBODY ever watched because others beat him to the punch and were much more entertaining, and he continued to harass his "football buddies" on Facebook to the point where they had to block him, but IT STILL DIDN'T MATTER. And now when anyone DARES to question the criminal behavior of his gods he trolls the sites so he can bash the victim because she's an ICKY girl! And he's going to come on here and bash me because I just spoke the truth and let's face it. Geeky, troll, football fanboy just can't handle the truth!

It's clear to see who has morals and who doesn't in this forum...."prosecution over-reach" for threats against a victim is wrong?

Oh, I'd say his job is just getting started. Too bad a few parents, liquor store owners, etc haven't been prosecuted yet. These people are out of control. Time for big brother to start enforcing the law and bring these deviants back to reality.

Agent007, you aren't serious are you? It's any wonder Fox doesn't allow public commentary - that level of negative energy might create some sort of a meltdown.

Julieann,

You can't read can you? I never blamed the victim. Show me where I did. This is exactly what Im talking about. I even said we should punish the men who do rape. My whole point is that if women think boys and men are taught not to rape, they are ignorant of reality. We are constantly taught this. But some men will no matter what. Just like if you are in a bad part of Detroit, or LA, or Chicago, etc, you have a greater chance of being assaulted. Women should stay safe and careful. Not because it would be their fault if they got raped, but because there are men out there who will try to rape them, no matter how many times they are told not to.

What happened to you was horrible, and only the rapist was to blame. And I know most sexual assaults are by someone the victim knows, but women can still protect themselves from those random attacks that do happen, and as society, we can make things safer for them. At my college, in addition to the escort service, we also installed more lights on the outskirts of campus (especially on a set of stairs that was referred to as the rape stairs, due to the abundance of rapes that occurred before the lights were put in), and installed emergency stations throughout the campus that people could push if they were being attacked.

It is only the rapists fault that they rape. But thinking we need to teach boys not to rape will solve nothing because we already know this. Again, women should remain safe since they are the easiest victims of not just rape, but assault and robbery as well, we can do more as a society to make it safer for women like what my college did to greatly reduce rapes (we still have some every year, they'll always happen, just like murder), and we greatly punish all rapists and keep them off the streets. I dont see how anything that I am saying is saying it is the woman's fault. Please clear this up for me if I am.

Moonbat,

What does Fox have to do with anything? Why do libs always bring them up? What about the fact that while CNN newswomen like Candy Crowley and Poppy Harlow were talking about the rapists like they were the victims, and said nothing of the rape victim, Fox News anchors and reports were saying they didnt believe the rapists got enough time behind bars, and said the city should be ashamed of themselves? Get your head out of your a$$ and enter reality please.

To everyone who tries to defend the actions of the girls who sent those threats, think about the following scenarios for a moment:

Imagine for a moment that the two boys had merely stolen the girl's necklace, and had been caught on tape selling it a local pawn shop. Do you think the girl would be receiving death threats from her peers? Do you think any part of the community would come to the boys' defense?

What if the boys had "merely" beaten her black and blue, while their friends taped the beating? Do you think her peers would be spewing hatred at her? Do you think the community would defend those boys?

Of Course not! If those boys had done any of the above things, the community would have nailed those boys to the wall. Morally speaking, these are lesser crimes than Rape. But, when the charge is rape, it suddenly becomes the *victim's* fault, and people irrationally come to the defense of the criminals instead of the victim.

Isn't it amazing (in a disgusting way) how rape is the *only* crime in this society in which people try so hard to dismiss or justify the actions of the criminals?

/Sometimes, I really hate humanity

Is all this new technology making people dumber? or is it just uncovering how dumb people really are?

It is a shame that anybody feels the need to say anything derogatory about the victim (drinking or not). Those fellows who did the deed need to be put away from society for a very long time.

Just let's be careful not to play the race card here!!!!!

But thinking we need to teach boys not to rape will solve nothing because we already know this.

Apparently not.

lib50,

Do you know not to murder someone? Or to abuse children or elderly people? We are already taught not to rape, but there will always be people who do. We should make it harder for them, and make the punishment tougher, but you would be hard pressed to find a guy who hasnt had the idea of no means no, dont do it if she is too drunk, etc jammed down his throat. Focusing on teaching boys will do nothing, and take away from steps we can take to cut down on rape and sexual assault.

I teach both of my sons respect for everybody, including and especially women. Just look at the misogyny on the right, many republicans just can't help disrespecting women who speak up for themselves. It gives some idiots the feeling they can get away with this @!$%# because look at what Akin said. Or Limbaugh. Passing laws allowing politicians or employers to decide what women are 'allowed' to obtain or do with their body. Vaginal probes legislated by politicians, not doctors. Old guys making decisions about women with nary a woman on the panel. Cuts in programs that feed kids. They want to block women from family planning programs, but lets pay for wild horse contraception. It all adds up.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49689.html

Social media... for when acting stupid in real life just isn't good enough.

lib50,

Wow, you really are that stupid. Women are allowed to obtain birth control, and were allowed to obtain it way before Obamacare. The bill just makes it "free" for women. What about the misogyny on the right, with the democrat from Colorado saying women shouldnt carry guns, because the rapist could get it from them? This is why Obama won America. Some people are just too damn ignorant for their own good.

Hey Mr. Burns,

Sorry, but we do have a problem with guys "learning" that it is OK to rape, abuse and disrespect: women, gays, minorities, different religions and more. If you were taught otherwise (as was I) then great! Welcome to the team. But to assume that just because your parents, teachers, clergy were on the ball, that everyone else comes from the same background, well, that is kind of a naive stretch.

There are cultures that specifically teach that women (or girls and boys) who dress or act a certain way, or who are in a certain place are "asking for it". And some of those cultures are very much a part of our "American Culture". We are not homogeneous.

The origin of the civil rights movement for African Americans was not the bus boycott, it was for anti rape laws against white men who could and did rape black women with impunity.

And here we are today, I'm not big on names, but about quite a few cases of high profile sports figures accused of rape who got off by attacking the victim with the standard "she asked for it" line come to mind.
Does Kobe Bryant ring a bell? And don't forget our military. Tailhook and on, and on.

And then there's rap and reggae music. The modern mouth pieces of bigotry and yep misogyny.
So sorry Mr. Burns, but we do have a problem, and it is neither new nor unique to our country. Did the adults in my past teach me to protect the weak, to defend the defenseless? Yep! I probably would have baby sat this unfortunate girl even if I didn't know who she was. I'd like to think that most of us would too. But there is more to "America" than moms apple pie.

Hey Mr. Burns,

I just read some of your later posts. Um you are kind of defeating your own arguments.
I just don't get why you are so upset that people on this vine are suggesting that we stop and
reenforce what we all believe should be taught.

Why would you call Lib50 "stupid" just because he or she pointed out the obvious. Not everyone got the same memo saying "No means No", and "Drunk means off limits." And "Protect the weak and feeble, don't rape them."
I think that these boys need to face the music for what they did. But I don't think that they were born evil. That is way too easy.

The school is full of kids. A lot of them broke the drinking rule. A lot of them broke the DUI rule. At least two of them broke the date rape rule. Why is that? We do teach "Boys will be Boys".

You even seem to be are saying that armed guards should be escorting girls home. I am led to assume you don't think these boys could have controlled them selves. I disagree. I personally have never wanted to rape anyone. But there are lots of things that I didn't do because I was made aware of the reality of the repercussions to both my self and to the victim of the act being considered.

This often happens. Girls/women often identify with the men in their lives rather than the victims. You only have to look at former President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Even women's groups fell all over themselves to join in and defend Clinton while branding his various accusers as "nuts and sluts" . That's exactly what the administration was planning for Lewinsky if not for her saving the infamous "blue dress".

Ellick - You only have to look at former President Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.

Ummmm.....that was a consensual affair. Not remotely comparable to rape.

Even women's groups fell all over themselves to join in and defend Clinton while branding his various accusers as "nuts and sluts" .

If they were it was out of the awareness that the misogynistic right-wing was using the Lewinsky affair to damage a President who supported women's rights.

Or it could have been that people fed up with a "privileged caste" being allowed to lie under oath about something that had a direct bearing on a harassment trial wanted to see justice done. But alas, it was a Democratic president, so it was only a blow job and not really sex, and if it was only harassment by a Democratic president, well, that's ok too. But you can pat yourself on the back, because if it had been you instead of the privileged ones, you would have been jailed for lying under oath.

Clinton was and probably is a womanizing, misogynistic liar. Lewinsky was too young and foolish to understand that she was not being loved, she was being used. Unlike Clinton, I am sure she has learned a hard lesson in life and the liberal women's groups are a huge part of the problem. Instead of guiding and helping women learn power through self respect, they want to educate young girls on all of the positions they need to learn to please their man sexually. Instead of protecting the heartbeat of human life and creation, and empower of matriarchy, they are producing baby mama's and abortions. Instead of encouraging marriage and family they promote out of wedlock births and angry children. Clinton is morally bankrupt. I did not vote for him because of Jennifer Flowers and go figure the hound dog never changed his evil ways.

LOL Valarie. You can sure twist the facts to suit your messed up little brain.

And to think, some man will put up with your cooking and thoughtless dietribes to have sex with you. wow, some men don't have any respect for themselves.

While traveling the US, I made one observation quickly: a 100 IQ is pretty dumb. Being dumb is not affiliated with any particular gender, race, religion... 100 is just not a symbol of cleverness. However, those who test out at about 100 don't realize that.

I don't agree Clinton was a misogynist...I just think he was a man with very low self-esteem in spite of his high intelligence that needed a woman's sexual attraction to him to make him feel good about himself. And he is not alone...lots of men AND women judge themselves by how sexually attractive they are.

This is still a man's world and not only do men push hard for women to be submissive and live to please them, but many women get confused and believe that is our true calling. If you want to know where the biggest pressure for that comes from, look no farther than your local churches. Misogyny is a pervasive force in most major religions...Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Southern Baptist, etc. etc.

Not much "girl power" among small town girls with no vision of the rest of the world. They're not competing for the last spot in medical school, they're competing for attention in an area where the high school football game is the biggest event of the week.

Yes Skrekk you are right, it was the conservative group who forced the cubans in the former presidents hand. I have said her had just cause to do what he did, lord I wouldn't want to look at Hillary either.

Agent: based on your prior posts, it appears you know nothing about women.

I fully support and appreciate Mike DeWine's efforts. He is protecting more than just this particular victim, he is protecting future victims as well. I appreciate that he is has not allowed himself to be influenced by a corrupt group of people! Thank you, Mike!

skrekk. In your haste to make what I said in to something political the point whooshed way over your head. The "nuts and sluts" defense was standard operating procedure for the Clinton team when he was accused by anyone. Paula Jones ring a bell? Women's groups did the same to her and Clinton ended up losing his license to practice law in that case.

This isn't about politics. It's a problem that crosses the political spectrum. Other women simply often support and defend the men. I would wager a good share of the girls in the schools involved have already labeled the victim a slut who deserved what she got. It's a shame.

You choosing to blame the "right wing" rather than the person guilty of such conduct is exactly what often happens. Well, done.

I can never understand this mentality that people are so quick to treat players on a sports team as special and expect different rules to apply to them. This has happened in many instances in many parts of the country. If these kids who committed the rape weren't on the football team, they would have been quickly prosecuted to the full extent of the law with no one siding in their favor. They also wouldn't have generated much of a news story either. Instead, people are more concerned about how the team will do now and the impact on these kids for their future in sports. A young women's life has been torn to shreds and she may need years of therapy to deal with this trauma, yet people somehow see the perpetrators as the victims. The boys who did this felt no remorse and couldn't understand why this was even a crime. That culture of people being above the law because of some position they happen to hold has to change and this case may be the turning point for that to happen.

"...liberal women's groups are a huge part of the problem. Instead of guiding and helping women learn power through self respect, they want to educate young girls on all of the positions they need to learn to please their man sexually." -- Valerie

And I thought liberal women's groups were all man-hating feminazis. I really do need a better map to the fever swamps of conservative paranoia.

skrekk,

You know that a woman publicly accused Clinton of sexually assaulting her, and none of the liberal media would touch it. You also dont here almost anything on the democrat congressman who is accused of having sex with underage prostitutes. Liberals are all about protecting women's rights, until one of their own is accused.

It is no different than the wife of the married man who cheats on his wife with a mistress or perhaps another man. The wife sides with the husband and blames the affair on the girlfriend or boyfriend.

It is no different than the mother who believes her husband instead of the child he molested.

It is no different than the parishners that side with the priest that molested or raped boys.

It is no different than a popular coach or teacher everyone loves that raped and molested young girls or boys.

What people do not realize is that supporting these people is condoning their actions!! And people wonder why victims are afraid to come forward????

What a weird thread. What's that song go, "You and me baby we ain't nothin' but mammals, So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"

@ Mike464493: re your comment, "I can never understand this mentality that people are so quick to treat players on a sports team as special and expect different rules to apply to them. This has happened in many instances in many parts of the country." I agree. After the Sandusky/Penn State debacle, nothing surprises me any more when it comes to what people will do and risk (eg, their careers) to protect a football "hero". What astonishes me is that what happened to Penn State wasn't a clear enough message to those those idiots in Ohio who "covered up" for those "boys". The crime is bad enough, but the cover up will get you nailed. From what I can see, the "Fat Lady" hasn't even started humming yet....

So true Whipping. sad state of things when a girl will help the rapist. They must be some real trash.

Absolutely not Whipping, the most disgusting thing about this whole mess is the fact that those kids thought it was OK to RAPE. Nothing about this story, absolutely nothing is more serious than that.

True because even with the apology neither addressed the victim. One addressed her family but not her. We have a real problem here and it goes on all the time. They think what they did was ok and now boys cousin says "you made my cousin cry" Really!!

Parents step up! Do your job. Take responsibility.

Or your child too may have to live with the fact that she was raped by who knows how many that evening but she was too drunk to remember. Or your child could be the one who in that night threw away all of his dreams of playing football at his high school or in college. Or your child could be like these two young girls who now have criminal charges against them for threats.

I blame bad, absent parents.

Absolutely not NoLiberty. The most disgusting thing about this whole mess is the fact those kids thought it was OK to RAPE and then brag about on social media. It's one thing to be so devoid of moral character to engage in such an act but to think nothing of it and release video of it as though it's perfectly normal makes your outrage rather misdirected.

Plenty of disgusting things about this case, it's hard to say which is the most disgusting.

Hopefully this story gets widely reported to teens and young adults everywhere, kids need to learn that this type of behavior isn't acceptable...period. And it won't be tolerated. I think it's a shame we have to arrest teenagers to make the point.

It being on social media meant so many more people saw her humiliation. I think it definitely made the whole situation worse even though it also allowed those responsible to be prosecuted.

The root of problem (besides just being young and stupid) is that too few parents really involve themselves in their kids lives enough to talk them through their immature thinking or even ensure they learn how to make better choices. Just feed them, send them to school, but otherwise let them raise themselves....

I'll post the question again.

Is all this new technology making people dumber? or is it just uncovering how dumb people really are?

JoAnn - those two girls are proof that they still don't think that the behavior of those two boys was unacceptable. As far as they are concerned the girl was the problem.

Andrew I still have to disagree. Posting videos online is as simple as point and click - no matter what their content was.

In the process of raping this girl, they were physically close to her, they saw and knew in their souls how "out of it" she was, and they laughed and got excited thinking about her as an object instead of a person. They molested her as an object, not as a person. By their moral judgement they thought it was just fine to see her as a means to an end, as food.

That makes them proven predators.

I am not afraid or disgusted by a predator posting images, I am afraid and disgusted by a predator stalking me for food.

Everything but the act of the crime itself is inconsequential compared to the horror of the sick mind enjoying its feast.

What makes the posted videos disgusting that you are seeing their enjoyment of their crime - an enjoyment that happened irregardless of whether or not it was being taped.

Do not let resultant byproducts of the crime overshadow the horror of the actual crime.

Good question, how much punishment do you think that guy who threatened our president got? How much punishment would anyone get for threatening the life of another, even if they didn't carry it out?

Is one threat against a life, without carry through, deserving of more or less punishment than another?

Too true! What's next, a serious talking-to?

Disgusted that you recommend the victim remove herself from an activity so widely participated in to avoid taunting she did not and does not deserve.

Were the football coaches at the party, or did they help secure the alcohol for the minors? How about the parents? Was this a chaperoned party?

The parents of the rapist - yes they should be charged, as they are responsible for their underage children.

I also see from earlier reports that several witnesses / accomplishes were granted immunity for their testimony. Is that fair?

If I watch someone being set on fire and burned to death, and do nothing to help (like call the police) am I not guilty?

The law is not for the police to uphold, the law is for us all to uphold by not breaking it, and by acting (at the least to call for help) when we see it broken.

I can't believe that anyone would even suggest that these 2 boys are victims. Not even close. Obviously Agent0000 is a troll, and is only hear to sound stupid. Yes, there is such a thing as mob mentality--however, this is not it. These two boys drugged this girl, displayed her for everyone to see, and then raped her. They then bragged about it later. They then reached out to the girl, but only because they were concerned about her pressing charges. Boys know that raping someone is not ok. There is no question about that. Then, on top of that, people are threatening this girl? What is wrong with these kids? This whole thing makes me sick.

No liberty - are you aware that teachers, and other people involved in youth activities have a legal responsibility to report certain crimes? Apparently, not.

No Liberty, it happens all the time. They give immunity to people who participated in a crime mostly to a lesser degree for their testimony so that they can get the evidence that they need to convict the criminals who have committed a worse crime. There is nothing wrong with that when the evidence that you have may not be strong enough to convict the criminal. Here, they did not participate but they witnessed a crime and did not contact the police. I would rather they get immunity than the DA possibly losing the case due to not enough evidence.

Bad bob,

I see no mention that the teachers or people involved in youth activities were even aware this had occurred, please point me toward the article if I am wrong.

What I am trying to say is... if your underage son killed someone YOU are responsible for it as well, if a kid you give piano classes to kills someone, and you don't know about it, you don't have to report it because you don't know about it! Nor are you responsible for not knowing about it!

Did any of the teachers or sports coaches have any idea this happened?

Donna,

I hear you, and despite my post I do know this, but I just don't like the full immunity given so freely. A reduced sentence or something sure, but complete "get out of jail free" card? What about some community service. Heck I would even settle for a slap on the wrist!

One only need to look around to see that this happens much closer to home than you think. There is a very good chance that this wasn't the boys first indiscretion. I agree that who ever hosted the parties are responsible too. Fox News posted the name of the rape victim but not the perpetrators? Isn't that breaking the law? We can point a lot of fingers here....

I have seen towns look side ways when much lesser crimes have been committed by "their" athletes. I have also seen school districts act on their wayward athletes during a state run... 5 first string players were removed from the team because they violated their oath (drinking). These boys can wonder for the rest of their lives what would have been... Life's lessons are tough but we should learn by our mistakes and the mistakes of others.. There is more to life than sports.

Agreed Gary.. What goes around comes around.. Let us cry about "These poor boys that got screwed over in court" until it actually happens to someone like this 15 year old who threatened the victim. Karma is a huge thing my friend...

It was the rapist's sister who threatened the victim. That entire family is nothing but a bunch of violent thugs.

Without the video and national media coverage, the community would have prevented this crime from being prosecuted. The whole place reminds me of parts of Mexico where a gang controls the legal system.

Karma always comes around. The silly children that threatened the victim will find out very soon what it is to be scorned.

Exactly! This is an alarming trend among womankind - bullying and lack of compassion. Very, very sad.

mollypot

It was the rapist's sister who threatened the victim. That entire family is nothing but a bunch of violent thugs.

must be the one named "Mal'lik's" family, I'm guessing

typical gang/ghetto/thug behavior

Having worked in the public system for 3 decades I feel comfortable saying that the problem lays at the doorstop of the hood and that mind set.

Don't speak out of both sides of your mouth. You either embrace da hood...and all that comes with that...or you don't. Don't come running to me when you got caught and try to pretend that, suddendly, you are a kid that made a mistake. BS.

montegobay - These football (and other sports) "heroes" tend to do these crimes (and cause other problems) because they are told - from the time they first show promise - that they are wonderful, that they can do no wrong. They are put on a pedestal, glorified, get special privileges, school grades they don't deserve (so they can remain eligible to play) and special status with the other kids, especially the girls. Pretty soon they're believing all the hype and think they can do anything they want and get away with it. If we stop letting them get away with it, perhaps eventually this childish and dangerous attitude will change.

Steubenville is an extreme example, but many towns are like this - especially small towns with nothing else to cheer about.

All these people care about is their football program and the boys that make it happen.. If anyone happens to get in the way, mow them over!

Oh give it a rest lady d. This has NOTHING to do with 'da hood'. You sound like a moron. There are losers and rapists in EVERY segment of society. It's just the rich ones that usually get away with their crimes.

Many "all American" towns across this country have a "protect the sports programs at all costs!" mentality. Again, nothing to do with the "hood"

Gawd this country is full of idiots.

Steubenville is far from the hood, it is a river town supported by the steel industry. Location has nothing to do with what was done here. DLux is right, if these parents would have had money these boys would have walked away. As sad as it sounds money speaks highly in the legal system, a poor man may be sentenced for something they didn't do, they plea bargain to a lesser charge. From the court systems I have seen in Ohio, yes I am from Ohio, the less fortunate are screwed. I have said Lady Justice is blind folded so she can't see the corruption within.

Probably have learned that from mommy and rap songs.

Born in Steubenville and the town essentially worships the football team because the steel industry, the only other major economic boom, has seen it's decline. When I was in school, football programs got all the moneys from boosters and gifts leaving the other sports to fend for themselves. Hell, I was treated like crap in high school for choosing to play soccer instead because it was simply more fun.

The National Obsession with Football (and other sports to a slightly lesser degree) is what makes these people think they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Football players are all heroes! They can do no wrong! Anything they want is OK, because they can throw or catch a ball. It starts in high school (maybe middle school), goes on to college, then professional sports. And if, by chance, they do something wrong, it's all swept under the rug, ignored, shrugged and winked at (boys will be boys!).

I am still somewhat surprised that Vick was actually convicted and did prison time. I am not at all surprised by the people that think he 'did his time and everything is now all right.' He's still a thug who wasn't remorseful for what he did, in the least. He was sorry he got caught.

Penn State was willing to cover up and ignore Sandusky's sexual abuse of young boys, because they couldn't let it tarnish the football program.

Some years ago (in the 80s), in Texas, a couple of college players were convicted of murder. The shock and consternation was unbelievable -- OMG, their careers will be ruined! Never mind that they'd killed a young woman. Their futures were now in jeopardy. This attitude will continue as long as football players are deified.

So, how about those Niners?

"Having worked in the public system for 3 decades I feel comfortable saying that the problem lays at the doorstop of the hood and that mind set."

Right, cause Steubenville is such a nasty hood. One question, do you even know what is referred to as "da hood"? If you really worked for the public system, I hope its no where near a school. But what the H3ll is the public system anyways?

Ad. I agree completely. Let's go after the adults who supplied the alcohol and held the party.

Focusing on the alcohol is intellectually void. The alcohol isn't going away. The problem isn't even that they had alcohol, it's that they're not understanding the basic constructs of social responsibility. Focusing on the alcohol is just as juvenile as the kids who got drunk and mocked the victim while it was happening.

RelaxJay, I believe in focusing on those who supplied the alcohol. The supplying of alcohol is just as criminal as the kids who got drunk and mocked the victim while it was happening.

People are afraid to bring up bigger crimes if they think they'll get in trouble for smaller ones. That's why we dont convict someone for something dumb like underage drinking if it means we can get rapists off the street. Did you guys not go to high school? I came from a very conservative/ Christian city, and most of the kids drank during the weekend. No one got raped either. Underage drinking happens everywhere, all over the country, and nothing is going to stop it. Lets focus on rape instead of something dumb like drinking.

Sorry but you are wrong. The alcohol is not the whole strory but it is a contributing source for things to get out

of hand. The majority of people in prison were intoxicated when commiting their crimes. Also people will do

things when in a group that they might not do otherwise. No doubt, Lots of things contributed to this and

alcohol is definately one of them.

OK Clarice. Wrap yourself in bubble wrap and focus on a minor issue of a rape. I've been drunk many times with many other people. I've never raped anyone, nor have I ever been raped. Lets stop blaming the alcohol, and blame the perps.

I am so sick of listening to people who blame everything but the person for the crimes that they commit. If he wasn't intoxicated he never would have done it. You alone are responsible for your actions. If you get intoxicated and commit a crime, the alcohol was not a contributing factor. You chose to become intoxicated and while in that state you chose to commit a crime. If you are intoxicated and someone tells you to commit a crime and you do it, you are responsible not the person who told you to do it. You made the choice to do it.

Personal responsibility seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur. There always seems to be mitigating circumstances as to why someone does something wrong. It was the alcohol, it was the movie, it was the video game, etc, etc, etc.

Good grief.............There must be evil yeast in them alcohol. Those little buggers will mind control you to do any thing.

Bjwebbb I couldn't agree with you more! Sounds like the whole town needs to quickly realize they are doing the kids NO favors by encouraging (by lying and covering for them) bad behavior.

bjwebbb - -the most sensible comment on this post!

I can't even begin to imagine how ridiculous the world you've created around yourself must be when you're more focused on kids getting alcohol than kids raping kids. People concerned about the actions of people not hurting others instead of people committing violence are the reason there's so much violence.

Rojo get some saltpeter. And bjwebb you don't make the law and "shouldn't" even try.

RelaxJay -- no one seems to be more focused on the kids getting alcohol than the rape.

However, if all these kids weren't drunk, the rape might not have happened. Certainly, the victim would have been sober enough to try to defend herself and possibly stop it from happening.

The world is vexing enough as it is without entertaining hypotheticals. Focus on reality.

Read more posts, there are indeed plenty of people more focused on the alcohol, some even blaming it... as you are suggesting in your hypothetical.

As the kids did get alcohol illegally, and that's not hypothetical, there should be more prosecutions. All aspects of illegality during this evening should be prosecuted as they all have been contributing factors, not excuses.

bjwebbb,

Do you not live in reality? You realize a vast majority of people drink before they turn 21? Yeah, lets get all in a huff, blame society, and not focus on the rape. Its the evil alcohol that's the problem. Back to prohibition. Lets overreact and beat our chests on wanting to convict everyone who was in a 10 mile radius. Charge people who knew about underage drinking. Of all the dumb things I've ever read.

Only a half-wit would suggest that with limited resources there can be unlimited actions.

"However, if all these kids weren't drunk, the rape might not have happened."

Well, do all drunks rape? - No

Do all rapist drink when committing the crime? - No

So how can you even logically state that if there weren't alcohol there might not have been a rape?

Now if you want to blame the parents, yes, they are and should be held responsible to some degree as they didn't raise kids but monsters.

I don't think she was from Steubenville. It was stated in earlier articles that she was from West Virginia.

Tough Love Mom says "I am appalled and ashamed for these adults that were asleep at the wheel when their kids (both boys and the rape victim) needed them most."

You are seriously putting the girl who was the victim of this brutal crime in the same category as her rapists? And you call the rapists "the boys" more than once, and the young woman they brutalized you call "the victim" a couple of times as well. Way to dehumanize her and stick up for the criminals.

You are what's wrong with society. Viva rape culture!

These kids are all 14-17 year old victims.

Victims of BAD and ABSENT parenting.

She was in no way sticking up for the criminals. Did you just read tough love moms post?

Again in front of our local high school here in Ohio are signs that say PARENTS WHO HOST LOSE THE MOST.

We will see what Dewine and others with the ability to make a difference do.

Tough love mom, I'm right there with you! Every single person, including the girl, should be held accountable. In the old days, girls/women who behaved like she did were called sluts.

Sorry, but the term should still be used. Often. Perhaps if it was, there would be less drinking/partying and less rapes.

Yes, I know, as a woman, I have a right to get stinkin drunk, even walk by myself down a dark street in the middle of the night. But, I'm not stupid enough to do it.

The parents of ALL the kids should be arrested and investigated by child protective services for severe neglect, encouraging delinquency, and allowing underage drinking.

The parents' names should be splashed all over the news & web! They, more than anyone, should be held accountable and publicly scorned!

If the football coaches, or any teachers, principal, etc., knew, they too should be arrested.

As to the girl, I'm very sorry she was raped. But she needs to be made to face her own actions. No one forced her to drink. She did it intentionally for the purpose of getting drunk. They all do.

What I want to know is were any of those kids drinking & driving? One comment above criticized another on here for asking what if she had driven & killed someone. I asked the same question.

If she was drunk driving and killed someone, she would be held legally responsible for her actions.

As to the post suggesting someone had drugged her, forget it. GHB is rarely ever used in rape. On the rare occurrence it is, it's usually done by college students.

All SAFE units who treat alleged rape victims immediately draw blood to check for alcohol & drugs in the patient's system. It's almost always positive. Most patients are ages 16-26.

Blood test for GHB is drawn only if there is evidence that it was used. It's rarely ever drawn. If it had been drawn and was positive, that would have come out in the trial.

Sunny - Wow.

You're not "sorry she was raped." You think she deserved it. You made that very clear. You called her a slut. You claimed that most rape victims are drunk or on drugs ("It's almost always positive."). What the F&*K is wrong with you?

You guys are weird and delusional. If you dont think kids party all the time in high school, either you were chess club champions (although many of the guys on our chess team went to parties in high school too), or you just cant remember anything before age 21.

The prosecutor, who "claims" she received threats, hosted one of the rape parties.

Mollypot, I seriously doubt that. Why would you post such a ridiculous statement?

However, in our area just last year, there was a big drinking party held at a local home in a very affluent neighborhood.

The parents were home and knew full well what was going on. They were the ones who shouted to the kids: "The cops are here!" Kids were seen running out the back door.

One of the parents was an attorney who reportedly was working for one of the city's largest law firms.

SSHellcat,

TYPOS!!!!!!!!! really you can't get over thattt? Are you on your 3rrd day of a meth high? tpyos is what you are upset abuot after reedi ng this? WOW

No they should go to an adult jail so they can feel what rape is like. Then maybe they will get their sheets together>

Why should she? Did anyone force her to go to that party? Did anyone pour the booze down her throat? No! She should be held accountable for her own actions, the same as everyone else involved.

You can't get blood from a turnip.

Lawsuit awarded, bankruptcy to follow.

Sunny yea all she had to endure was a little rape that is not nearly enough punishment maybe they should stone her in the town square then she will know better. Just how much do you think she needs to endure? Sure maybe she shouldn't have been drinking but you what kids party every weekend in every city and town in the country and have been for decades.

Yeah, guys are trained to be predators. Thats not a dumb comment....

Absolutely! I totally agree with you.

The fact that the drinking age is 21 is why these teens don't know how much they can drink and still remain in control of their decisions. We've proven prohibition doesn't work. Pretending we can keep alcohol away from teens is just plain dumb. Decrying alcohol and wanting to skewer anyone who lets them get it is just a simpleton's way of viewing the world.

You're a big boozer. We get it.

***hic***

Relax has a point. The fact that drug and alcohol abuse is so prevelant in the states is because we have the such tight restictions on it. Look at other countries where the drinking/driving ages are flipped; it isn't nearly as much of an issue as we have here. Take away the glamorization and the problem plummets.

Or he doesnt live in plastic wrap and realizes reality. Changing the drinking age will not stop anyone from drinking.

Slaves?

I thought that too. ;)