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Students at a California high school are being told they must wear gender-specific attire to prom and for yearbook photos, prompting the ACLU to demand district officials step in to end discrimination against students by teachers and administrators at the school.
In an 11-page letter to Hesperia Unified School District Interim Superintendent David McLaughlin, the ACLU and law firm Nixon Peabody charged that Sultana High School administrators foster a hostile and harassing climate for gay and gender non-conforming students.
Teachers and administrators have made discriminatory comments about gay people, and have not stepped in to stop bullying by students, the ACLU said.
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Kyle Bodda, president of the Sultana Gay Straight Alliance, said the atmosphere has proven distracting to learning.
"All students should feel safe and free to be themselves at school," Bodda said. "I'm hopeful the administration does the right thing and creates a safe environment where we can be ourselves without fear of being harassed."
Levi Smithson-Johnston, a senior at Sultana High School, said the alleged discrimination began last year when students formed a Gay Straight Alliance club on campus.
"It’s saddening that they would even want to discriminate or even try to hide anybody of their sexual orientation or gender," he said.
In a statement, interim superintendent McLaughlin said he was returning to the district from spring break to "personally oversee a thorough examination of this situation.
"These allegations are deeply concerning and they have my full and focused attention," he said. "While the ACLU letter focuses specifically on the rights of gay and lesbian students, I see it as a moral imperative to reinforce the current efforts in place regarding anti-bullying and tolerance throughout the district."
In one incident, a teacher told a student who commented that he did not have a valentine on Valentine's Day, that that's "because you're gay and nobody wants to be with you." In another, an administrator referred to a gay student's campaign for homecoming queen as a "joke." Another teacher told a student to "take the gay headband off."
ACLU's letter states that girls are being told they must wear dresses to the prom and boys must don tuxedos.
"Some female members of (the Gay Straight Alliance) would like to wear tuxedos to prom. Me, myself personally would like to wear tuxedo and heels to prom," Smithson-Johnston said.
A junior at Sultana High School, Amber Stanford said she’d like to see the school’s treatment of LGBTQ and gender non-conforming students "change drastically."
Stanford said she plans on wearing a dress and heels to prom, but has close friends who would be affected by the dress code.
"Any student should be able to wear whatever they want no matter if they are boy or girl because it’s what they feel comfortable in," she said.
Students were also instructed to wear gender-specific attire for their yearbook photos, in violation of state and federal laws, according to the ACLU.
"California law makes it crystal clear schools cannot discriminate against LGBTQ students based on sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression," said Melissa Goodman, ACLU attorney.
Students and lawyers alleged that administrators have censored the Gay Straight Alliance's public announcements, flyers and activities, such as movie screenings.
The ACLU's letter noted that a gay teacher, who was advisor to the alliance, was told she was "a bad fit" after she helped a student file a complaint against a teacher and her contract was not renewed.
The lawyers want written assurances from the district by March 25 that discrimination will end at the school.
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Ya, the girls might look like penguins! What's next, penguin marriage? Abominable
More stupidity from the pols who run our schools into the ground I attented prom in jeans and a tea shirt and took four girls one of which became my wife as the other girls bf were in jail for drinking beer
Stupid, insensitive comment. Grow up!
I just got back from breakfast at Denny's. The person who staffed my table was neatly and tastefully dressed in freshly pressed black slacks, a crisp white shirt with a button down collar and a neck tie. SHE was most professional and attentive . I left HER a sizeable tip.
Homophobia has no place in our schools and should certainly not be promoted and sanctioned by school administrators. Bad bad people.
Here is how you do it, kids. Wear whatever you want. If you are turned away, go back out to the parking lot and have a party. When the 'adults' realize they are the only ones left inside, you have won.
When they refused to let girls wear jeans in my high school class, all the boys threatened to wear skirts, since there were no rules against it. We got our way rather quickly, because the administration knew we were not bluffing.
How about if they just ban prom al together. Kids care more about that than education anyway.
I say they should wear whatever they want outside of jeans and a T shirt.
All the school district is doing is pouring gas on a fire.
As for the teacher who said to the one kids, "That because you're gay and nobody wants you", they're an a-hole and disciplinary action should've been taken right there on the spot.
I am not gay however, I grew up with friends, "male and female" who did turn out to be gay and we're still friends. I don't care. I was their friend and had good memorable times when we were kids. When I learned they were gay, it took a little bit but I got over it quickly.
They're still the same people I remember.
Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't equal homophobia. You guys need to grow up.
Here's a novel idea - if a guy wants to be a girl and a girl wants to be a guy - then get a sex change, change your gender and switch.
Then we don't have to worry about frivolous lawsuits because someone decides they don't identify with how they were born.
Geez people don't we have more important things in this country to focus on than a girl that wants to dress like a guy.
Sick and tired of hearing about this crap everyday.
Do they honestly think girls wearing tuxedos is a problem? Do they think it's going to change their sexual orientation? This is just silly. Talk about mountains out of mole-hills.
We need to knock down barriers... We need homosexual training, bi-sexual sensibility courses and more transgender education. We better do it now or our children might think that boys and girls are different. We don't need that confusion!
Kimbo47
Try reading the article again and realize it is about a school with a history of disregard for a subsection of the student population.
Perhaps it is you who needs to do the growing up and know that children need to, and have the right to a safe environment in which to learn.
If you are sick and tired of this "crap" everyday then do something about it either don't read the article or get up and stop the verbal abuse of students in our schools.
Gay Straight Alliance = bigoted and intolerant azzholes
Sultana High School District = bigoted and intolerant azzholes
Please do the world a favor and kill yourselves off, the lot of you. Thank you.
As long as everybody is DRESSED, who cares what they have on? Frankly, I'd rather see a gal in a tux than the same gal in some horribly fitting dress or, worse yet, pants and muffin top.
Wait a minute - you're equating the right of a girl to dress in a tuxedo a "safe environment" for children?
Think I've heard it all now.
What the hell does one have to do with the other.
And it sounds like to me that the school is rigid with its own policies and of course that = disregard for our children in some families. Because the liberal parents of today are raising a bunch of kids that have no respect for authority, their own parents, rules and society at large.
Its evident in the way kids behave these days, the number of crimes being committed by youth in relation to years past, sexting (huh? we had one home phone--rotary dial), kids in junior high having unsupervised parties, and I could go on.
The only thing wrong with todays children - THEIR OWN PARENTS.
Crime is at an all time low. Even among these youths of liberal parents. I know, the truth hurts.
Kimbo47...A guy who wants to wear a skirt doesn't mean he wants to be female nor does a gal who wants to wear pants mean she wants to be a guy. Fashion changes over the centuries has had everyone wearing gowns and it didn't change their sexuality. What a person feels comfortable wearing has ZERO bearing on who they are attracted to or their gender identity. I know a number of macho, straight men who have been quite comfortable wearing skirts or kilts (I'm not equating the 2) and neither made them more or less who they were or who they loved. I've known straight women who hated wearing skirts and dresses. The school requiring "gender appropriate" attire is a fear reaction and doesn't contribute to order, discipline or any other public good. "Cross-dressing" just makes them feel icky and that's THEIR problem.
Kimbo47
I don't agree with everything he said however he is right about one thing we have more to worry about then something like this. Also what does it matter what they have on it's clothes and if they are comfortable why should the school care.
I hate clothing and would prefer to wear a loin clothe, you think the ACLU would step in and force my employer to grant me my wish?
I am a girl and I LOVE to wear dresses.
Unless.
Somebody tells me that I have to. @!$%# you. This isn't the Victorian era. I can wear PANTS any @!$%#ing time I want to.
These students must allllll be 4.0 if the only thing the STUPID school Admins are thinking about is girls not wearing some dress. Gay, straight or otherwise. Must the girls wear pink dresses and boys wear blue suits? Must they all wear make-up and have long hair for the girls too? It's just ridiculous.
Oh, and Opinions- there is a huge difference between indecent exposure and not wearing "gender" clothes.
Just makes you wonder. Did the school administration get together and brainstorm ways they could make the whole situation into a huge controversy?
Only if your employer permits other people to wear loin clothes, but not you. This is not a case of "I want to wear anything that I want" but "I want to wear what other people are allowed to wear." That's a big difference that seems to elude people.
I'd much rather see a girl in a tux than some "dude" with his pants down to his knees. Thank God our public school system is going to uniforms next year!
The school official who made this decision really should be fired for incompetence. You do not need to be a lawyer or constitutional scholar to know that something like this would never pass muster. So long as they dress in an appropriate manner for the occasion (i.e. formal wear), the kids should be allowed to wear whatever they want.
proper attire is not optional at work as it is usually a condition of employment
It is also not unreasonable to require formal wear for a formal event
I suspect they really didn't have a problem with girls wearing a tux but the all but sure to happen guy coming in a dress
Quoting a Madonna song (first time for everything)
Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
Why does the school care? Would they prefer that girls wear those too sheer Lululemon yoga pants instead?
What if the guys showed up with their tuxedo pants sagging below their shirttails? Would that be a hit?
Do the administrators of this school just look for things to be dissatisfied with? Apparently so.
So when a boy wants to wear a formal Prom Dress it will be okay as well. Then we have to let another couple who want to dress comfortably and they wear swiming trunks and a string bikini. Then we will have the people who go to nude beaches and do not see any reason to let their son and daughter go naked. Some want to go in blue jeans and sandles. Why not everyone stay home and let the fags have their way. Then there will be 10 couples there.
These are kids who don't know any better. You can not just wear whatever you want at functions. You must wear what is appropriate. They need to learn this now. You can't attend a black tie affair in jeans, just because you feel more comfortable in them. Many of the people at those events probably feel uncomfortable too, but society and customs say otherwise. Unless you live in some backwater redneck town, a male wears a Tux, and females wear prom appropriate dress to the prom.
I've seen some of the prom dresses girls are wearing now. Cut outs, backs so low, you can almost see crack, skirts that barely cover their butts, plunging necklines practically to belly buttons, side boob, and super high slits, all that are the brink of causing a major wardrobe malfunction, and these j@(&@$$*$ are worried about them wearing tuxedos?
Obviously, this is the most important issue in America today! (That's sarcasm if you didn't get it)
Why do people think that THIS issue is what is hurting our country. It's actually the opposite that is most important. That people be treated with respect is the real issue. As long as students are wearing"formal wear", that's all that should matter.
My high school had a "hair code" that prevented male students from having hair long enough to touch the collar or tops of ears. Decades ago (in the 70's when long hair was practically the norm for anyone "non-kicker") I thought that this was wrong and I still think so. After all, there were no rules for girls' hair length.
If a girl wants to wear a tux, so what? I doubt many males would wear an actual dress (except perhaps to make a statement) but if they chose to do so, male students finding this unpleasant should just be looking at the girls anyway (sorry, that was sexist, but face it. hetero high school boys look at girls. a lot.)
And for what it's worth, I am conservative and only vote for democrats if I think they are a better candidate than the other candidates. My freedom, right?
Kimbo47
*sigh* again re-read the article the tuxedo ban at the school is an EXAMPLE of how the environment at the school is working against a group of students, other examples were sighted.
Frankly if you think peoples rights are not important that is a little sad. It starts with be told something looks gay, a teacher being let go becasue she helped a student make a complaint, not allowing girls to wear tuxedos.
I am commenting on the article in its entity not just the title which it appears is the only thing you have read.
So because the school dictated a dress code for girls at their prom it is an "environment working against a group of students."
I read the entire article and I hope you are not a parent, because you are ignorant.
@BP the grape
"Unless you live in some backwater redneck town, a male wears a Tux, and females wear prom appropriate dress to the prom."
What? You think this is more likely to happen in a "backwater redneck town"?
Sheesh! Schools principals are sooo worried about "gender appropriate dressing" and yet, most probably, they worship a homeless long-haired dude that wore robes and sandals, a.k.a. Jesus....Note: and, most probably, they are oblivious to the fact that the guy in reference was (gasp!) Jewish, not Christian, and he was also a revolutionary - an Occupier by today's standards.
Let's face it. People from different parts of the world dress differently, and it's all about cultural relativism. The bad thing is when everyone else becomes inferior in the eyes of those who want to keep the status quo, through ridiculous power play. It's the kids' prom: let them have fun and dress as they wish!!!
In other words, they must learn now to conform, to fit in, not to rock the boat. Good for these kids. At age 53, I wish now that I had been more of a rebel in my late teens/early 20's.
Just who defines "appropriate"? At one time, wearing jeans to school wasn't "appropriate." At one time, girls/women wearing slacks wasn't "appropriate." Dressing casually at work was "appropriate." The standards of what is appropriate are always changing. Get used to it.
Are you unable to understand the issue, and so you make this childish and misspelled "argument?" Is that your problem?
I hope that when these kids get out in the corporate world, they know that things work a little differently. Attending a work function requires strict adherence to social protocol for most. I suspect the school is flexing their desire for compliance as a prerequisite for the real world.
I suspect you're only pretending to be that naive.
Nope. That's just the way my mind works. Do you think everyone is just like you? If you believe in individuality as far as physical expression goes, then trust that is how I think. When young people (whose brains are still maturing - until age 25) believe they can do whatever they like, whenever they want... why stop trying? Sometimes a little inhibition is good.
@Kimbo47
I'm soooo sympathetic to your being sick and tired of hearing about a group of people fighting for their civil rights. Not.
Decides? It's a @!$%#ing legitimate medical diagnosis called Gender Identity Disorder and to discriminate against those who have it is breaking the law in all 50 states as well as Federal law. You are the one who needs to grow up.
It's just clothes. The students should able to wear what they want as long as it's tasteful. There is nothing inappropriate about a girl wearing a tux or a boy wearing a dress. Let's STOP the homophobic madness!
Renting a tuxedo is a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a formal. You see women in tuxedos on the red carpet all the time. Administrators are foolish to pick this particular battle - it's an immediate ACLU draw.
Some girls look hot in a tux..
enough of this liberal BS!........the country is going to hell in a hand basket as it is.....we don't need to get there on a speeding train......but this is typical of all the fruits and nuts in Cornyifornia
Oh yes, clearly a girl in a tuxedo is going to drive our civilization straight into the ground. /s
mike
I guess that picture next to your name is an attempt at irony.
I know, Mike! The world is ending because girls want to wear tuxedos!!! Oh the horror! Since we're a freedom loving people we HAVE to stop them from being free!!! Respecting all people will destroy us all!!!
The problem is "its not just this one girl."
The very fabric of our country and what it used to stand for and what it was built on is being torn down little by little by small interest groups who keep throwing tantrums until they get their way, at the expense of everyone else.
For most of this country, majority rules - in our elections, taxes in cities and counties and a whole lot of other things.
We need to quit bowing down to special interests that are determined to destroy this country from the inside out.
A girl wanting to wear a tux to the prom is not FRONT PAGE NEWS. Is not something the ACLU should spend their time on. Either stay home, wear a dress or get a sex change.
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense!!
@Kimbo, so what if every girl decides to dress in a tux. Do you really believe that your clothes decide what sex you are? You do know that many cross-dressers are heterosexual males, some married with children. They don't engage in sex with men. They just like to dress up.
Kimbo
Just because you dont care about an issue does not make it a non issue. If it is such a none issue then you can not read the article and not post on the forum. But it obviously bothers you. What your saying is the exact opposite of whats going on majority say its OK for the girls to wear tux a minority of school officials have a problem with it. I suggest you get out from under that rock and take a look at the world America is more then just white straight Christians.
realisticwomen... I hate to go all realistic on you, but MEN AND WOMEN ARE DIFFERENT. Why must we confuse the crap out of kids - things are tough enough for them without the liberal groups clouding their minds. The kids know this fact, why can't you accept that.
The realistic nature of men and women are different - no matter what you say. Call me all the names you want - I didn't make it this way, mother nature did. If you want to complain, complain to mother nature... Until mother nature changes things let's try to avoid confusing our children even more.
Then let us stop heterophobia and sexophobia first and then let us quit trying to lump in boys who simply like girly things and tomboyish girls within your ranks and then we can talk, otherwise, you can do like some idiots in the Sultana High School District says and shut your dayumn mouths!
Schools have a dress code, just like the military and a dozen of other companies/organizations.
If you don't agree, then you don't go, you don't join, you don't work there.
Simple enough - a federal case its not.
@NJSteve, the kids are okay. They're not confused and neither am I. If who wears what is an issue for you, then that's your problem.
I love it when people bring the 'fabric of our country' and other such idioms into a debate. These are most likely the very same people who have no idea what that fabric is made of and try their damnedest to ignore it.
Notice you'll never get a person who uses such phrases to actually define what it means.
Kimbo
The state have laws that the schools have to follow read the freaken article before you post. Other companies organization is apples and oranges this is a public school payed by the tax payer everyone one who has a problem with this can by all means join a private school.
If they are forbidden to wear a tuxedo, they can always protest by going naked!
@NJSteve ... I can guarantee you that a high school senior isn't confused by seeing a female wear a tuxedo.
Men and women's differences will come out no matter what they are wearing.
Certain Amazon tribes had men and women wearing loin cloths and nothing else. I guarantee you that the, er, fabric of their society was not frayed, nor were their children "confused."
You have the answer Amused Muse.
Everybody go to the Prom wearing Loin Cloths and nothing else. That way everybody will be gender neutral. Nobody will ever guess what sex the students are. And nobody will be "confused" anymore. Problem solved!
These kids need to learn their are rules, and they need to be followed. If you don't want to go by the rules, then don't go. If the prom says tuxes and dresses, then that's what you wear. There is no small print that says you can wear what you want if you don't like the rules.
Many don't like following laws either, like no drinking if you are under 21, and marihuana is illegal. Rules and laws apply to everyone, not just to people who think their own special circumstances give them an exception. Proms don't make exceptions for gays or transgenders. It's only for a couple of hours, just suck it up and move on. Otherwise, don't go.
I think that a few of the guys need to show up in dresses just to protest the rule that girls cannot wear tuxes. Maybe some of the hetero couples can swap clothes just to show support of the GLBTQ students.
Just because the girl might want to wear a tux doesn't mean that she is transgender. Look at Ellen DeGeneres as an example. She is a lesbian but she is definitely not transgender. There are many males who would like to wear clothes other than just pants but because of the social stigma of doing so they are limited to some extent of cross dressing in private.
Gender identity and sexual preference are very different subjects and there are not binary. There are many shades of gray and many people show distinct variation in both and it is perfectly natural to do so. In fact is it more natural to show variation than to be completely male or absolutely hetero.
I took a course in human sexual in college because psych courses were an easy A and my GPA needed the bump. This is a very bad decision on the part of the school administration and it will blow up in the face now that the media is watching. I'm a 20+ member of the ACLU and I support their involvement to protect the rights of minorities.
Okay - I'll bite. Here you go - my definition of the "fabric of our country."
Based on Christian values, morality, sense of community, working together as one people and not divisive groups, respect for one another.
You don't have to agree or support it, but when the United States was in possession of these qualities you had less murder, crimes against children, families that actually ate dinner together, people working towards a common goal, children who could walk to school, play in the yard without fear of kidnapping, etc.
Those were simplier times, but they were safe times and the country came together as one.
Today - I don't even recognize the country that I was born and raised in. When I have to "Press 2 for English" its REAL easy to get confused.
Kimbo .. at whose expense is the wearing of tuxes by female students? Who has lost any of their own rights as a result?
Kimbo
Your actually contradicting yourself
Then
Where is your brotherly love when you make asinine comments like this? I forget its all the non English speaking peoples fault! That's really christian like sense of community and working together. Please...
@Kimbo. Are you aware that most Hispanics are Catholic and there are not a threat to you supposed Christian values.
It appears that what you oppose is anyone who is white, hetero, socially conservative and who might not speak English as their native language. There is a name for people like you.
BIGOTS!
Maybe some girls just prefer to wear a tuxedo, doesn't necessary mean they are gay - as that is really nobody's business anyway!
i agree
This is true. My non-gay sister and her non-gay friend wore tuxedos to their prom and that was back in the 80's. One had a pastel pink tux and the other had a pastel purple tux. So these were not your typical manly black tuxedos. They didn't stick out as much as the guys on Dumb and Dumber but they were close. :-)
Its policy.
Jus because we don't agree with something doesn't mean we have the right to disobey. Disagree yes, not disobey.
That is the rule - live with it, move, don't go, lots of other choices versus all this waste of $$ trying to prove a point.
I don't like to drive the speed limit - but hey, them's the rules - I do it anyway.
Kimbo - or if you don't agree with a rule, you try to have it changed. Blind, unquestioning obedience is unamerican.
Fine, then the school needs to OBEY the state law. A state law, I might add, which FORBIDS the school from making rules based on a specific gender or sexual orientation.
Simply put, STATE LAW requires that if a school enacts a policy that girls may not wear a particular item of clothing, then neither can boys. So, if girls are no longer allowed to wear a tux, then boys are not allowed to either.
The school cannot argue about obeying the rules, when they themselves refuse to follow the rules imposed on *them*.
"Its policy" is not an excuse to violate the law or interfere with someone's Constitutional rights. There is no compelling reason that girls should be banned from wearing tuxedos if they want.
Wow - I must have missed that constitutional right that says that we have the right to dictate a school dress code, especially a public school that DOES HAVE THE RIGHT to dictate a dress code, and gender specific to both sexes.
You have a kid in school lately? When my children were in school their school handbook dictated a dress code for GIRLS and a dress code for BOYS, and what type of shoes they could wear, make-up, and what color they could color their hair.
And guess what - they can LEGALLY DO SO.
Don't like it, change schools, drop out, doesn't matter...
Stephen17401
I guess then a rule that men can't wear dresses would be out as well. A guy who is a cheerleader would have to wear the same outfit as the girls. Men and womens restrooms and locker rooms would not be allowed. Guess what, we are turning our children into a bunch of morons andwe are giving away our country to try and please everyone. It can't be done so make as many happy and tell the rest to go to he!!.
It doesn't matter what you got away with back home or back in the 80's, this is about this particular prom, at this particular school. If the rules say girls wear dresses, why can't they just abide by it? No one changed the rules just to discriminate against them. It's always been this way.
Mabe the boys should wear the dress and the the girls the tux: Now that would really piss off the school district.
Maybe they can all dress like Boy Scouts? It's Kalifornia, let them all go nude. It's getting to where nobody can do or say anything without some push back somewhere or someone getting their feelings hurt. Back when we were going to school, the Prom had a dress code. If you didn't like it, you didn't go. Case closed.
The dress code was probably "Formal Attire" and I don't think anyone would dispute that a tuxedo qualifies as formal attire.
How is allowing a girl to wear a tuxedo or allowing a boy to wear a dress hurting anyone?
Yea, and I bet you had to park the horse and buggy out in the field huh?
Having a dress code is fine. Making it gender specific isn't. It's 2013, a lot has changed and rightfully so.
alot hasn't changed...and when real hard times come.....people will be looking at reason why things have gone bad......I wouldn't want my son to be wearing a dress or my daughter a tux.....
Care to elaborate on that thought Mike?
I don't see how allowing these kids to where what they want to their own prom, is going to affect anyone other than those kids.
Mike, how will girls wearing slacks bring about hard times?
What do "hard times" have to do with clothes?! Some people are having hard times NOW and I doubt if they are worried about who wears "the dress" in the family!
Mike####, you sound like a very proud closet Queen???
Mike-Once again, you're another homophobe on the loose! We all know that those who complain the loudest are the most likely closet queens, so put on your dress and come out of your closet.
Bush Limpdough and glenn ##ckhead are prime examples of those in the closet..
Yeah, and back when I was going to school, interracial couples were banned, but they had a designated "smoking area" for the middle-school students.
Times change, dude. Get used to it.
Probably one of the reasons is that it will be distracting to other students who are TRYING to enjoy their prom also.
Everyone will be staring at the "girl in the tuxedo."
It disrupts the prom for everyone else. And probably the reason she wants to wear it - attention.
You're right, times change - but moral fortitude - it's forever for some of us, but a punch line for most of you hence the situation this country finds itself in today.
1) Highly doubtful, and
2) Anyone who cannot stop "staring" is really just ruining it for themselves.
Spoken just like the slave owners of old, or those who fought against women wearing pants, or women working outside the home, or people wearing mixed fibers, or...
Kimbo - If a girl in a tux disrupts someone's prom, that's on them; not the girl in the tux. Personally, I fail to see what's so disruptive about it. Just because it might get your attention doesn't mean she's doing for attention. More likely, it's what she feels comfortable in.
Kimbo47
ah yes, your moral fortitude, would you have that started before slavery ? before women got the right to vote ? or after ?? when did your moral fortitude start ? when was the moment you decided that society had it right ? was that before marriage was allowed between two people of different religions ? was it before women were in the workforce ?
you did mention it was forever.. so if it was forever then you'd be in favor of slavery, women having no rights, etc, right ?
Morals and slavery and women's right to vote - mixing apples and oranges for me. They do not equate.
And trust me, if the girl is a lesbian, then she wants to dress like a guy - then be one.
If not, then it's for attention. And if you are so blind not to recognize that, then I'm not the one with the problem.
Kimbo....you zero concept of any view other than your own. What one wears, who one loves, what gender one identifies with....these factors have nothing to do with each other. Put a woman who prefers pants in a dress and she will feel uncomfortable. A lesbian in a dress is no going to suddenly want men nor is a lesbian in pants want to be male. Your refusal to see the difference is willful ignorance on your part.
God I hope Mike does not really have kids.
Who cares if the girls want to wear a Tux, and the guys wear kilts if they wish.
I just re-read my last post and I apologize for the typos.
I think the girl in the tux is hot and full of confidence. She will definately ride on the magic carpet after the prom while some boys may not be so lucky. They may want to take notes...........
I see the difference just fine, but thanks for taking the time to try to point it out to me.
Kids do a LOT of things just simply for the attention.
But of course parents these days don't pay attention so they wouldn't notice anyway.
This is ALL FOR ATTENTION. And guess what - they're getting it - look at us here - MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
You can't just spite the rules just because you won't be comfortable. That's what's wrong with kids today, they think long time customs, rules and laws don't apply to them, just because they don't like them.
So, my question is, if wearing clothing that is considered gender inappropriate in modern America is confusing to children and has something to do with being gay then does that mean that all the ancient cultures like Greece and Rome and Israel and more modern Scottish men were all gay and confused? If so how did all these people get here? (head scratcher)
Hmmm ... if you're trying to protect the other students from distractions, I guess you'd need to ban anything that was completely bland and ordinary. For instance, let's ban beautiful girls in breathtaking gowns. We also need to dictate colors ... black only for tuxes, so that no one stands out.
Every generation should question the "customs, rules and laws" that is handed down to them to ensure that they still make sense. And, in this case, how does preventing girls from wearing tuxes make sense?
Kimbo47
they sure do equate, it was part of the "moral fortitude" before slavery was outlawed that slavery was moral and correct - even in the bible it tells how to treat your slaves. Then the "moral fortitude" changed and now its not right. Same with women's right to vote. So again, since you so nicely deflected my earlier questions --
so now you can answer them, right ?
just because she is a lesbian does NOT mean she wants to be a guy. She may enjoy not dressing in feminine clothing but that does not mean she wishes to become a man. She may be a lesbian who enjoys wearing jeans and suits, and for the prom would feel more comfortable with a tuxedo. That doesn't mean she wants to be a guy at all.
its not for attention either. Do you have children ? sometimes they do things for attention, other times its just an expression of who they are as a person and not really for attention.
apparently you are the blind one, so its definitely your problem.
care to try again ?
Here comes the fashion police. Why can't people with small penises stay out of things they shouldn't be involved with in the first place-- Pure unadulterated penis envy is why
You must love hot dogs mojoman, I think you have penis on the brain. This is simply wrong because it is so obviously wrong.
I'd feel comfortable in a thong. Is that permissable? ACLU and alternate life-style people, stay out of American tradition. Tuxes or suits for males, gown or formal dresses for females. Don't make a Halloween costume party out of a prom.
Gender neutral restrictions are different than gender specific restrictions which target a sub-group.
Does the thong cover all your naughty bits? And would it qualify as formal attire? If it meets those two criteria, then I don't see a problem with allowing you to wear whatever makes you happy.
How clever, king. A thong and a tux are just the same. Aren't you pleased with your spot-on analogy.
When do we begin tracing "American tradition?" Stealing land from natives? Slavery? "No Irish Need Apply?" Jim Crow laws? Maybe before women could vote? Ah, tradition...
kountryqueen-Are you a teaBagger by chance? It is perfectly OK to wear your thong to the party, as long as you wear it over your head. It's an American tradition!
Kountry- Why I do not always agree with the positions the ACLU pursue they are there to protect people from the stupidity of others.
What school boards and the voters that put them in place need to decide in cases like this would they prefer to give in on the stupid decision of the school or spend their tax money fighting to argue their stupid decision in court?
Flanative, my vote is Kountry is a teabagger.
All traditions must end! How sad.
Life is a progression. We must move forward!
Some traditions are great, some are not. And traditions are for the individual, not for imposing on everyone around you.
klondiko
oh yes ! its so sad ! slavery was a tradition that ended ! how sad ! women having no rights was a tradition as well and it ended ! how sad !
shall i go on ?
You liberal-heart commies are what is ruining this country.
Do us all a favor and MOVE.
Yeah, Phoenyx13 ... you liberal-heart commie expressing regret that we no longer have slavery and that women now how rights. Don't you know that justice and Constitutional rights are ruining this country?
BarryNJ
ROFL ! obviously justice and constitutional rights are the downfall of this society LOL
Kimbo47
oh of course its ruining this country ! how dare we give people equal rights ! how dare we allow people to express themselves ! this is just horrible, right Kimbo ??
we should go back to the days when women, black people and anyone else who wasn't a white male, did what they were told to do and had no rights !
is that how you feel kimbo ?
if you don't like equal rights, justice and constitutional rights, expression of one's self etc, then YOU are the one who should MOVE !
These school administrators and teachers have so much time on their hands that this is important?
Fighting discrimination is always important.
I think that Howy may have meant that trying to force kids to wear what they're told wasn't important.
How is a dress code discrimination?
Schools have one, the military has one...they said I had to wear panty hose with my skirt, I don't like panty hose - should I have contacted the ACLU?
Ridiculous, just plain damn stupid.
It isn't, unless it is applied in a gender specific fashion which impacts a target group disproportionately.
Uh - sorry - they do it all the time in the military and they DO NOT call it discrimination (I'm a retired female veteran).
Next...
You give away many of your personal rights when you enter the military. Didn't you ever read the papers you signed?
Kimbo, Thank you for your service. As a retired military veteran you did not learn much in the military. The military cannot be compared to civilian life. The justice system is different-UCMJ. By enlisting you become the property of the military just like a gun. Don't think your property? Try to go AWOL and see what happens. Comparison of a military dress code to how civilians dress is ridiculous.
This probably isn't the nest time to hold the military up as a shining example of gender equality.
Kimbo, pantyhose suck, they almost destroyed the art and capability of finger f-cking for an entire generation.
I agree with capecodmom - especially when you consider how many women in the military are raped by their fellow enlistees or officers and yet those rapists are never brought to justice - even under the UCMJ.
And you also give up some personal rights the minute you walk into a school, public or private.
Next...
JohnKaye,
Thanks for the lesson...I spent 25 years in the military - I'm sure I know more about the service I was in than you do.
No kidding they are different - that wasn't my point.
The point was - it's not considered discrimination to dictate a dress code that is gender specific where one is legally allowed to do so. Military, private school, public school, etc. The school can legally set forth a dress code - THAT was my point.
And I don't think I got to the top of the enlisted corp by not understanding the difference.
A private school can do pretty much what it wants in the way of a dress code. The same goes for a military, although there are limitations. What is legal for a PUBLIC school is quite different. A public school can't legally discriminate (including dress codes) without demonstrating an overwhelming justification. A school would have a hard time demonstrating that there is an overwhelming public purpose in forcing women to wear dresses instead of tuxes.
These school administrators and teachers have so much time on their hands that this is important?
All the guys should show up in dresses and all the girls in tuxedos.
Blech. Someone's homosexual panic is getting way, way out of hand. I am married to a male and anyone who tried to stuff me into nylons and high heels would have a hell of a fight on their hands. Is this school going to require next that the boys pay for everything and that the girls be shorter than their dates and let them smack them around if they don't put out?
Thanks, Jane. I was trying to put words to my nebulous thoughts and you nailed it.
This is great news. I am all for gender specific attire. Also, if you were born a particular gender that that is what you are until the day you die...no exceptions... no matter what sex change you have had.
If you are all for gender specific attire then by all means, dress in a gender specific manner.
But for those who don't want to, butt out.
HaHa...ummm...NO. It is time to end ALL the nonsense. PERIOD.
Clearly you feel so self important that you feel your values should be forced upon everyone else. Guess what, you are not that special.
What this is is a waste of tax dollars, by a bunch of "educators" too dumb to understand the law.
She has a CHOICE - don't go.
Simple enough.
Truthcomeshere,
Wow, what about when you walk into a store and it only has one bathroom, it is often referred to as a unisex restroom what do you do then genius?
Since Americans who claim that expectations for women's dress should never be allowed to change almost all seem to be speaking from a Christian perspective, I suggest that we remain perpetually using the dress of Middle Easterners in Biblical times. For you, if you are male, that will mean a robe with a long skirt. Leg-shaving not required, however.
Ummm. EngEsq...It is them forcing their wrong morals and values on others. There are men and there are women....there are ways they dress that is normal and ways that are not. Don't argue just for the sake of argument...geez
...southern by the grace of God...Well, there ya go, you are obvioulsy a transplant. Using a restroom that is unisex has nothing to do with how you dress. By-the-way, I do there just as I do at home I go to do the business I went there to do. It really isn't that complicated like you make it sound.
You can't appease everyone and their quirkinesses. It is impossible and pretty much why this country is failing. Let go back to good old morals and integrity. We were a much stronger and richer country before all this nonsense about I do this so I want to do it everywhere, or I like this so everyone now has to like it to, or my lifestyle is different but you have to accept it....it is beyond way overboard.
How does these female students wearing tuxes translate to "forcing" morals on others? There is no force at all. If the other female students want to wear formal gowns, they are free to do so. I'm amazed at how many people seem to think that rights are a zero-sum game ... if someone else is allowed to do something, then it must somehow diminish their own rights.
Homophobia is rampant. It's as if they actually think they can change their sexual orientation outcome by forcing them to wear gender specific attire at some stupid dance.
Gay people today are the black people of 50 years ago. Imagine where we'll be in 50 years.
"Gay people today are the black people of 50 years ago."
Who in 50 years will be the gays of today? Pedophiles? Will there be a speciesphobia?
Can children or animals legally give consent to a sexual encounter? No.
Can children or animals legally give consent to enter a contract (marriage)? No.
If you can't see the difference between two consenting adults wishing to spend their lives together and an adult raping a child or an animal, than you are the one with the problem.
@crisp, SO FAR, you are the winner for stupidest comment of the day. Congratulations!
Heterophobia is rampant...what's your point?
Heterophobia is rampant? What rights have been stripped from heterosexuals? Did their marriage rights get revoked?
.
The ACLU betrays their bias by not supporting the entire Bill of Rights.
.
ACLU supported the KKK's rights to free speech. They routinely support gun rights issues. Do you have a specific complaint to address?
Why, yes I do.
Despite knowing that the Bill of Rights refers to individual rights, the ACLU has arbitrarily determined that the Second Amendment is a 'collective' right.
They're wrong and they know it, but they hate guns more than they support individual rights:
I call BS.
ACLU cases for gun rights:
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2010-07-15/news/fl-aclu-sues-for-seized-weapons-20100715_1_aclu-petitions-court-guns-sheriff
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/district_attorney_must_prove_w.html
http://reason.com/blog/2007/04/06/the-aclu-defends-gun-rights
http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jul/11/only-nevada-aclu-opposes-gun-control/
EngEsq-Looks like you just called BS on poor Steven B!
It wasn't very hard. ACLU has long since viewed gun rights within the confines of a well regulated militia, since that is what the constitution says. But when these rights are defined by the courts, and the government tries to limit them the ACLU will protect them.
The arguments we are having now regarding what "well regulated" means is not part of what ACLU fights over. Some people think that the ACLU thus has no interest in gun rights. This is a false belief.
Arbitrarily? You can find a number of respected Constitutional scholars that will take the position that that the right to bear arms is a "collective" right, so there's nothing arbitrary. Just because you don't accept that interpretation, doesn't make it wrong. If there was no dispute on the meaning of the second amendment, we wouldn't be having the battles that we're having today.
Why does "Some people who want to choose a different method of self-expression from the commonly accepted method" translate to "All traditions must end!" ??? All traditions aren't ending. A few people would just like the freedom to enjoy their own version of the tradition. They aren't trying to stop anyone else from enjoying the good old fashioned version we all know and love. Over react much?
True to its motto, MSNBC has been leaning forward. To the point that its opinionated programming far outweighs its “factual reporting,” according to a new Pew study. While Fox News, too, had more opinionated programming, the network had a much smaller discrepancy between opinion and straight reporting. The study — which came as part of Pew Research Center’s annual “State of the Media” report — states that opinionated programming comprised 85 percent of MSNBC’s airtime (versus 15 percent of “factual reporting”). Meanwhile, Fox News had opinion 55 percent of the time, with 45 percent straight news.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2013/03/18/pew-study-finds-msnbc-the-most-opinionated-cable-news-channel-by-far/
Stevie B has been cutting and pasting this across the vine.
The difference is Lean Forward tips MSNBC hand that it offers progressive leaning opinion shows. Rachel Maddow, the Ed Show, etc... It also offers moderate Republican Joe Scarborough.
Fox uses the term fair and balance, and they gave us bat sh!t crazy Glenn Beck. Which is not fair, it is not balance, it is just bat sh!t crazy!
After spending over $190 for my daughter's prom dress, the rental of a tux would probably be much cheaper and the tux would cover a lot more skin. Honestly who cares if the girls wear a dress or tux? What a waste of school administration time.
When i went to prom, i wore a dress and went with my father. He still loves me like a son and it should not matter that im a gay cross dresser.
I don't care whether you are gay or straight. But kids should be able to wear whatever the f**k they want to a damn dance. Jesus H. Christ, people. Pick your battles.
So, girls going braless with wet, white T-shirts are OK?
How about shirtless boys wearing only jock straps?
.
Extrapolating something to the insane is generally indicative of the estrapolater being insane.
@Steven B, I will humor you. Going bra-less in a wet t-shirt, shirtless and only in jock straps are indecent. It's showing sexual parts which you cannot do in everyday life either, unless you are on a nude beach or someplace like that. Proms have dress codes against indecency and that should be enforced. There's nothing indecent about boys in dresses or girls in tuxedos.
But nudity is completely natural and occurs in nature EVERYDAY. In fact, it is one of the most natural thing ALL humans share in common. Why is it forbidden? Why is it indecent? Perhaps because MOST people find it indecent? You know...the majority and all that jazz.
You are making an apples and oranges argument, Rob. The school has no right to deny the students their fashion freedom : )
So, why should any have the right to deny me freedom from being nude in public? Let's see if you can pick up where Im going with this.
Actually, it does, as long as it does so in a non-discriminatory fashion. That's why it is completely legal for the school to demand a formal dress code for the dance. The ACLU and others are not fighting for the right of the students to wear whatever they want. They are fighting for the application of the rules in a non-discriminatory fashion. If tuxes are formal for boys, why aren't they formal enough for girls? That's the point, not some "do what you want to do" argument.
If I decided to take a drink every time someone said something akin to "back in my day," I'd be wasted already! Come on, people, back in your day white people had their own drinking fountains and a marriage contract was viewed by law enforcement as a license to rape at will. Let things change for the better!
Yeah, life is a progression and we are progressive. Blah, Blah. I'd just like to know where the "Progessives" draw a line in the sand on progression. Or is there one?
Why should there be a line? Why should we, as a species, not keep evolving???
When people have the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, then I'll stop fighting for more rights.
How did I know I would get some open ended, vague, blanket statement. Do you give those same answers when people ask you what 2+2 is? "Uh, whatever the sum of those two numbers are so long as it equals 2+2...yeah, thats my answer".
DfromSpencer,
Your statement advocates ALL kinds of highly immoral acts when you question whether or not there should be "a line".
"Blah Blah". That's all you've really said, Rob.
Ask a vague question and get a vague answer. Ask where the line is on a specific issue and you will get a specific answer.
It doesnt have to be more specific, but I will do it anyway.
What actions, lifestyles, behaviors and dress do you consider not conducive to a decent society both in image and function? List them specifically. Try to include things YOU have witnessed or know occur that YOU find unfit.
Sorry I had to break it down for you. I know you dont want to answer that question.
Actions are clear, where my rights interfere with your rights, my actions may be restricted. i.e. I cannot assault someone no matter how much I might want to because it interferes with someone else's rights in their own person.
As far as dress goes, within a school event, the students have reduced rights (per the supreme court), but unequal treatment based upon gender, outside of physical performance, has longstanding been frowned upon by the courts.
Any other questions, or areas you would like explained in further detail?
Very well. The military needs a serious "Dress and Appearance" overhaul. It is entirely gender specific. Now with women in combat and LGBT members...women will have to have short buzz cuts or everyone can grow their hair long. But, Im guessing buzz cuts because it was explained to me while active duty that our hair interferes with the gas mask. Oh, but wait...girls wore gas masks and had long hair. So, let's change that. Everyone can have long, flowing hair...men and women included. Men can also wear earrings, polish their nails and wear makeup.
Oh, so does local law enforcement and perhaps even the POTUS. When we elect president one day who likes to dress as a woman...just remember your stance. Think I embellished a bit? Not hardly.
I agree that the policy in the military should be changed. Honestly, buzz cuts make sense from an equipment standpoint, ability to stay parasite free, and not getting in the way during combat.
Contact the ACLU, they should be able to help you.
Oh, an of course you sign away most of your right when you enter the service. Lots of court cases around that one.
Of course excluding the right be openly homosexual....right? That slipped through the cracks and IS allowed.
So, its uncontitutional to disallow homosexuality, got it. But completely constitutional to force men only ONE choice...to cut their hair (gay or straight) while allowing females (gay or straight) the right to have buzz cuts OR grow their hair?
Okay, I get it. It's just a double standard. Sounds pretty typical.
@Rob, what are you really angry about? This story seems to have opened some wounds for you.
Not at all. I just like to see people who whine try and ask for "true" equality and fairness if that is what you are asking for. But, the reality is...life isnt fair and never will be. We arent all equal and never will be. Society will ALWAYS have restrictions. Period.
And society has come a long way, baby. Having restrictions doesn't make it okay. Discrimination of any kind is detrimental to progress. It's too bad that you don't believe that we aren't all equal. We are.
Again, remember what you speak of.
As an atheist I should be able to get up in a Baptist Church on Sunday and speak about how their is NOT a God...but I can't. I should be able to get in free on "Ladies Night"...but I can't. I should have been able to grow my hair long in the military as a man...but I couldn't. I should be able to have no dress code in the club like women do...but dress codes only apply to men. I should be able to have less expensive car insurance than women...but I dont and that is based purely on a stereotype!!
- I shouldnt be MANDATED to wear a suit AND tie to certain work functions when women can wear pant suits without ties...it's just not fair. Waaahhhh!!! Wahhhhh!!
This list is endless...so get over it and quit complaining.
The courts have long treated the military as a special case, so these types of gender distinctions ARE constitutional in the military. The military dress code is irrelevant to this discussion.
Baptist Church = Private establishment.
Bar = Private establishment.
Military = I agree with you on this one. No double standard. Either women have to cut their hair short, or men should have the option of growing it long.
Club = Private establishment.
Insurance = Private company.
Work Functions = Presumably a private company unless you work for the government. And still, I bet you could sue them if they fired you because you wore a pant suit or even a dress.
This is just sad! It's 2013, and we still have scared people running around fearing gay people. To each, their own!!! Repeat that every day of your life, and you too, will be happy!!! "To Each, Their Own"!!!
In other words, WORRY ABOUT YOURSELF!!!
What does 2013 have to do with ANYTHING? Do you honestly feel we are the first nation, society or civilization to try progressive thinking? Stop being so conceited. Everything is cyclical...everything. Read your history books. Openly liberal societies have been tried multiple times and ultimately reverted due to the breakdown of law and order.
It's human nature. Give to one and the rest want some. Finding a happy medium is the ONLY solution to a peaceful, functioning society where you please MOST of the people MOST of the time.
All societies, except for the current ones, ultimately failed. Regardless of whether they were liberal or conservative. It's a bad argument.
It's actually a great argument as NO society has ever been formed on the basis of what the United States formed its nation upon. A happy medium between freedom, morals and guiding principles. Every other society was essentially a dictatorship...every single one. Once the moral law broke down...so did the society.
All other failed as a result of war...almost exclusively driven by religion and progressive thinking.
@Rob how is denying a girl the right to wear a tuxedo finding a "happy medium". Happy for who? Those who want to dictate to her and say, "You're a girl, so dress like one. " How is that okay?
How is allowing such a break from the norm a "happy medium" for those who like certain guildines and restrictions? Those who want to dictate to us and say, "If you dont agree, you are a hateful bigot".
We are the most liberal place in the world when it comes to guns, so does the same logic apply here?
Define the "norm" and how is this taking a break from it? If you like to "dress like a man" go for it. If a girl wants to "dress like a man" you can't stop her. I say that if you don't agree, you don't have to.
Realistic,
But if a man wanted to dress like a woman...you know good and well it would be frowned upon and unacceptable by most business owners, agencies, employers...etc. Not to mention, it would look ridiculous. Much like women do in tuxedos and buzz cuts.
Actually, it isn't a good argument. The US isn't even 250 years old. Any number of societies lasted much longer than that (the decline of Rome lasted longer than that!). Until we out last them all, you can't say that our system is superior (at least for longevity).
When I was in high school and it was getting close to prom all of the girls were talking about their dresses and my best friend wouldn't share and said it was going to be suprise. Her and her boyfriend showed up at prom both wearing tuxedos. They looked fabulous. This was 1984 and at a small town in the middle of nowhere. Knowing my classmates, if the school administration tired to dictate that we had to wear gender appropriate attire all of the boys would have arrived in their mom old prom dresses.
I remember when I was a senior in high school in 1968...couldn't wear culottes because they were "shorts." As a freshman in college in 1969, the girls weren't supposed to wear jeans to class...hmm...all that changed within a few years, and, guess what? Civilization is still here. They are just CLOTHES, and I'm sure that all those lesbians will be neatly washed and pressed. As a lesbian myself, I always wonder why people are so concerned about whom people love rather than why they hate...
You can't fix stupid. I hope they identify the offending teachers and administrators, fire them, and charge them for violating the applicable laws.