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Subscribe to RSSTom Clements, the head of the Colorado Department of Corrections, was shot as he answered the door and authorities say there still isn't a sign of a suspect or a motive. NBC's Kristen Dahlgren reports.
Authorities are asking the public for help finding an unknown gunman who shot dead the executive director of Colorado’s department of corrections at his home Tuesday night.
Police believe the director, Tom Clements, was shot when he answered the door of his Monument, Colo. home. Why and by whom remain a mystery.
"Because of the fact that Mr. Clements served in the the position that he did as the executive director of the Colorado Department of Corrections, we're sensitive to the fact that there could be any number of people who could have a motive for wanting to target him," El Paso County Sheriff's Department spokesman Lt. Jeff Kramer said at a press conference Wednesday afternoon.
There was one other person in the house at the time of the shooting, who was not injured, according to police.
The El Paso County sheriff's office is now turning to the public for any information from those who may have been in the area at the time of the shooting or may have seen the car the suspect is believe to have used to flee the scene.
A Colorado law enforcement spokesperson says police are appealing to the public for more information on a car seen near the house where Dept. of Corrections chief Tom Clements was shot.
The sheriff's department announced they are currently searching for a white female between the ages of 35 and 50 who may have been speed walking in the neighborhood at the time of the shooting. The woman is not a person of interest, but may have made "some observations that could be valuable to us," Kramer said.
Police have a vague description of a vehicle that may be connected with the shooting. Kramer said a witness saw a dark colored boxy, two-door car that was unoccupied and in the area of the shooting around 8:30 p.m local time. The car was left running at an intersection about 200 yards away, according to authorities.
The vehicle was seen again after the shooting with one occupant but no description of that person.
The wooded area where the shooting took place is largely rural, but Kramer said police will also be checking surveillance video of nearby shopping centers to see if they can find a license plate number or any additional helpful information.
The governor addressed Clements' shooting in a letter sent to all Department of Corrections employees early on Wednesday, Hickenlooper spokesman Eric Brown told NBC News in an email.
“Last night, Tom Clements was killed at his home in Monument,” Hickenlooper wrote in the message. “I can hardly believe it, let alone write words to describe it.”
Related: Colorado governor sign landmark gun-control bills
Hickenlooper praised Clements as a man who was “unfailingly kind and thoughtful.” The governor ordered all flags lowered to half-staff in the state on Wednesday.
“He was a great friend to me and I think all of us. In many ways he helped define who a public servant is,” said Hickenlooper, who appeared to hold back tears at a press conference. “He is going to be deeply, deeply missed.”
News of Clements' death came as Hickenlooper was expected on Wednesday to sign new gun bills limiting ammunition magazine capacity and expanding background checks on firearm purchases in the state, eight months after the Aurora movie theater shooting.
Whether or not Clements’ position as director of the Department of Corrections played a role in his death remains under investigation.
Colorado Department of Corrections via Reuters
Tom Clements, the executive director of the Colorado Department of Corrections
“We’re sensitive to the fact that serving in that type of position could in fact make him a target of folks that would have motive to target him for a crime such as this,” Kramer said at a press conference Wednesday morning. “However we’re making sure that we remain open-minded to a number of other theories as well.”
One such theory is that the shooting could be connected with a 2006 case in Colorado involving Homaidan al-Turki, who was convicted of repeatedly raping an Indonesian maid that he kept as a virtual slave in his basement in Aurora for four years.
Last week, Clements turned down the transfer of Al-Turki back to Saudi Arabia.
Kramer acknowledged authorities are aware of the information and were taking it into consideration. "We also remain open minded to all of the other possibilities as well because we don't want to follow one particular trail and find ourselves perhaps missing something along the way," he said.
A federal official told NBC News that no federal agents have been involved in the investigation. The FBI offered assistance but so far state authorities have declined the help, saying they have the resources they need.
Clements wrote about the challenges faced by corrections officers in a message posted on the Departments of Corrections website – including the violent death of one officer in September.
“Together we are ‘building a safer Colorado for today and tomorrow,’” Clements wrote in the message.
“He was an inspirational leader,” Alison Morgan, a spokesperson for the Department of Corrections, said on Wednesday. “He had a vision for the department and was exceptional at sharing that vision with staff and inspiring the 6,000 employees of the department.”
He is survived by his wife, Lisa, and daughters Rachel and Sara.
Clements was confirmed as the head of the state’s department of corrections in February 2011 in a unanimous vote of the state senate. He had previously worked as director of operations for adult correctional facilities in Missouri, and had over three decades of experience working in corrections, according to a 2011 press release from Hickenlooper’s office.
The Department of Corrections had a budget of $737 million in 2012, and monitored a total inmate population of more than 20,000.
NBC's Pete Williams contributed to this report
This story was originally published on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:30 AM EDT
Leave a Comment:
Another reason why we should ban guns.
Pretty sure if he would've answered the door with a gun the results would probably be different.
Bla bla bla, and yes, criminals will not have guns then because we all know how they follow the rules. Hey, if we make drugs illegal there will not be any more drug related problems too right? Sounds like Mr. Clements pissed off the wrong inmate to me. I would not want his job....
u want it come get it dumb dumb
o. Another reason why like in most states a person in his position has a security detail. And come on you really think baning guns would have stopped this? Or even a security detail? ( but he would have had a better chance) Your baning of gun ideas does not keep guns out of criminal hands
Based on Mr. Clements line of work I'd wager he was on the radar of more than a few unsavory characters.
This seems to be less of a gun ban wake up call and more of a very unfortunate event likely due to his position. I'd also suspect this was done with a gun that would not be considered by any ban.
That being said, I hope his family can find peace and justice after losing a loved one far too soon.
Damon - Yes, I am sure he would have had time to draw his weapon and shoot the assailant before the assailent, who likely already had his gun drawn and pointed at the door, was able to shoot him.
Ban guns do nor work for criminals, period, it is just propaganda for politicians to pretend they are doing something good. Colorado gun laws will not stop killing. Criminality is a mentally health and social issue.
The shooter was most likely a convicted Felon getting revenge and it is against the law for them to possess a gun. Oh wait, they have a history of not following the law. Another example of why gun control will not work, it is about a sick society........
How about banning the release of violent criminals from prison.
"Another reason why we should ban guns."
And then what happens? They all just evaporate?
Nick - do you honestly believe that banning guns would have stopped a criminal from this shooting?!? What planet are you from??? Wake up! If you are listening to our politicians, you must be real gullible!
@Craigf1998 you seem to miss the whole probably part.
Damon, I am not looking to ban guns, but him being armed would not have helped in any way. This was clearly a situation where he was ambushed. I don't care what kind of weapon you own, when you are ambushed you have no time to react.
@Damon - You miss the point. Even if he had a gun on him, the result would have been the same. He would not have had time to draw his weapon to defend himself. He was ambushed.
So you really think we should abandon the 2nd ammendment. Well we will see how you react when that occurs as it did in Germany in the 1930's, you may have heard of the person who sponsored that, Adolf Hitler, or shortly after that the goverment decides to start abolishing other ammendments they don't like. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, you do not need the 2nd ammendment, until they try to take it from you. So many people think that by banning guns it will stop gun violence. When in fact it doesn't. If anyone looks at History, countries that have banned guns, one of a few things has happened. Becoming dictatorships such as Germany an extreme example or simply the only persons possesing guns are criminals using them to rob and hurt others. Drugs have been illegal in this country for decades, but you can find them anywhere. Guns in our society is not the problem our society is the problem. Maybe if shootings like that in Aurora (which for anyone who did not know there were already city ordinances forbidding guns in aurora, so obviously control did not work there)were not glorified by broadcasting them for days and weeks on the news, you would not have copy cats like sandy hook. So I ask again! Do you seriously think banning guns will make things better?
Seems like many believe that answering the door with a gun in your hand is the best policy. Better yet don't open the door and shoot through it.............that would be even better.
The NRA will now tell us we need armed guards on all our front doors... and schools... and movie theaters...
And yes, the situation WOULD have been different had he opened the door while wearing a gun. The criminal would now have two weapons.
And no, banning guns wouldn't help. That's just dumb. Unfortunately, when gun manufactures purchase the NRA, and both groups purchase the GOP, then you have people fighting against universal background checks. Head corrections officer? This is likely a convict that upon release, went to a gun show an bought a weapon right in front of everyone's eyes.
But we can't have universal background checks... no no... that's a secret ploy for a national registration... apparently... thanks NRA. Burn in hell.
I don't understand the banning guns issue. If certain guns are banned (assault rifles, etc..) it automatically increases the cost of acquiring these guns on the black market.
Even if the gun is stolen and resold illegally, that cost would double or triple the "street price". It's simple supply and demand.
Common sense (clearly common sense is not that common) would tell you, if the cost of acquiring illegal guns to a would be criminal doubles or triples, less of these criminals will have the ability to purchase these guns. Nobody is going to sell an item for less what they can get for it - even thugs.
Non-criminal acquisition of these firearms would cease, again (common sense tells you) these firearms would decrease in number as some are turned in, or become inoperable due to use - with no quality replacement part manufactures or warranty repair facilities.
Time would decrease the availability, increasing the cost again and again... until they become relics and so expensive that only collectors could afford them.
Assault weapon ban for non-military use is the only common sense response to mass slaughter of innocent people. Doing nothing and arming everyone at all times is simply illogical.
Trynka, that's an EXCELLENT point. If he would have answered the door armed, the shooter would have just made off with another weapon. The NRA likes to point out that there will always be illegal guns out there, but they fail to mention that the NRA is responsible for those illegal guns being out there. If they wouldn't fight so hard on background checks for ALL gun sales, it would cut down on the number of illegal guns.
Right thing to do, NRA is right, Tom Clements could be alive if he had armed guard protection, giving his position he should be protected.
Ben Cole-7870763
Just stop. Stop with the Hitler references. It's stupid. What happened 70 years ago, in another country has no relevance here. The government isn't going to take your guns and execute you. I'm not sure why that is the only argument. The people who truly want guns banned, across the board, for everyone, regardless of type are in the vast majority. There would never be the support for it (I mean if there really isn't support for an AWB why would there be support for an all out ban and confiscation?) and it would never happen here.
As mentioned, he was ambushed. No gun, or lack of gun for this guy would have made a difference. I would hope it's not someone protesting proposed gun laws as this action would seem kind of counter productive. I also don't know why people insist on saying guns have zero to do with the problem. Should be we ban them? Of course not. Is mental health and society in general an issue? Absolutely. But to say it's not gun related at all is just plain ignorant. That viewpoint just exists because so many care about having any gun they want and really couldn't care less about any real solution as long as their guns aren't discussed. It's sad really, and why nothing will ever change in this country.
Yeah, how many people in this world answer the door with a loaded gun in hand?
...and if the gun is in a holster, guess what the gun man has fired his before you even know that you're dead.
That said, I don't think you can blame this shooting on lax gun laws. I can't imagine gun laws in this nation so tight that somebody could not have approached this man's house with a loaded shotgun, and it only takes one round from a 12 gauge.
redvirginia, you're kidding right? Now gun owners want to provide personal armed security guards just so they won't look bad when someone is ambushed? By the way, he was AMBUSHED... know what that means? That means the security guard would have been shot first then Mr Clements. It would not have mattered.
The reason the Syrian civil war has gone on so long, is precisely because the population had no way to defend itself AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT. It is the GOVERNMENT that is the enemy.
The criminals must be laughing so hard with all these liberal calls to ban guns. The less guns in the hands of good citizens the easier the job is for the criminal.
This must be the gun's fault, because we all know that guns are the only way to kill someone. There is no way this could have been done with any other object on the planet.
I have a question for all the people that want to arm teachers in schools. If it's so safe to arm teachers in schools, how come gun shows make attendees unload their weapons before they are allowed to enter the show?
ItsSimple... actually if the price of an illegal gun or anything illegal goes up that just means the bad guys will do more bad to get the funds to pay the price!Thats the way it is. Simple huh.
Nick,
What, is takenaka sick today and she texted you to write your comment?! Tell her I said hi.
They should start by checking out all the recently released cons...
Riddle me this;
If the teachers and staff at Sandy Hook were armed, how many people do you think would have died that day?
If I was in a position such as his and I felt the need to be armed while answering my door I certainly would have had the gun drawn and I most certainly would have inquired who was on the other side of the door before just opening it.
Actually you've got it backwards. The Syria civil war has gone on for this long because the population is defending themselves. If they were defenseless, many more would be dead and the oppressive regime would be solid in their iron grip over the populace. No one would dare question them after that.
But that isn't what happened. The civil war is long and protracted because the civilians are fighting. And they aren't fighting with rocks and sticks.
Skiing...................guns people bring to sell are unloaded. The concealed carry guns are not.
You're forgetting about all the "Gun-Free State" signs that would be posted all over Colorado as a result of the legislation. No one will use them after that.
creekdog, you didn't answer my question. That pretty much says it all.
As for how many could have died if teachers were armed, probably about the same amount. All the shooter had to do was ambush one teacher who was "armed" and then he would have still been able to shoot up the classroom. Remember, when you KNOW someone is armed, you know who to shoot first.
USA1967, many gun shows require all privately owned firearms are unloaded before entering the show. Not just the ones for sale.
Typical NRA response. "What we have here, clearly, is a shortage of guns!"
@skiing111 - you are correct, and then that deranged idiot would have ONE MORE GUN to use!
It is pointless to argue with them (the gun huggers). The only solution to any problem is more guns. Gun sales have skyrocketed recently. Have we seen any reduction in shootings?
No.
Don't people, especially those in jobs like this guy had, look through peepholes anymore? Couldn't he afford a camera system? and why didn't CO have a security detail for such a high profile target?
As for guns, banning them would lower the number of guns criminals have access to since the FBI statistics show most illegal guns start out as legal ones, but that won't stop every criminal. Better to have strict background checks on all gun sales, ban multiple gun sales, and increase the penalty for the use of a gun in a crime to mandatory life in prison w/o possibility of parole (before any other sentencing is imposed). While I find it sick and depraved, people do have a right to go hunting; though it is no "sport". those people would only need to pass a background check for any gun - hand or long, and if they are truly law-abiding, they will do so without any problems.
Do you yourself answer the door while having your firearm drawn and pointing at whomever is on the other side?
If not, having a firearm on your side while the other person already has theirs drawn just waiting for the door to open, will do you no good.
Hell, you could have 20 pistols on you and you still would have died. Just because you're armed, doesn't mean you're prepared, or have a better chance at survival.
Now, perhaps Anonymous should publish the home addresses of Tea Party members...
Yeah, right. The rights of the chickenhawks who want to carry guns are greater than the rights of citizens who simply want to live. It's our faults that we do not dress in full body armor and hire security guards to accompany us everywhere we go -even in our own homes.
Mike,
I look out my side window before opening the door. So, yes, the combination of me being armed and looking out my window before opening the door, "does" give me the advantage....
skiing111,
-usa1967- Answered your question for you....
Look, I don't give a @!$%# whether you or anybody doesn't like guns. I do.
THE END
I hope the reference to the government being the enemy is for Syria and not the United States. If you live here and oppose the government so totally as to declare your government "the enemy" then you are a traitor, an anti-patriot, and you are no better than any foreign terrorist who would die to destroy this country. Our government isn't perfect, hell, it's pretty dysfunctional these days but it is not a faceless entity. It is comprised of millions of people who are trying to do their job. Inefficiency and corruption are not as widespread as fanatics would have us believe.
We need to stop beating each other up, tearing each other down and start actually doing something that matters, like dealing with our debt, campaign reform, infrastructure rehabilitation, the list of things that are in dire straights is endless.
There is no political solution to the gun issue. I support background checks, training, licensing, testing both written and proficiency but that is what I support and I understand and respect others right to dispute what I support. That is what makes our country work, mutual regard, an honest desire to see things from the other point of view.
We are like emotional guitars, strung and plucked on a daily basis, we never stop resonating long enough to find any peace.
My condolences to this man's family, friends, and colleagues, may they find the assassin and bring him to justice so he can't take vengeance on anyone else.
"Have we seen any reduction in shootings?
No."
Wrong!
Shootings have been declining for well over a decade,murder,rape and other violent crimes are at the lowest levels in over 40 years-while individual gun ownership is at or near the highest levels ever,and there are far more guns in the hands of private citizens than at any time in U.S. history.
Creek Dog looks out the window, sees a well-groomed man in a suit, opens the door and gets shot in the head. Nothing changed except Creek Dog looked out the window first.
Does it? What if they are in a delivery uniform and get you to drop your guard? Is your advantage still there?
The point I am trying to make, is that too many people think that by simply owning a firearm, means they are safe from attack. A false sense of safety is perceived by a majority of gun owners. I am not saying that this applies to you, but you have to admit, that if we lined up every gun owner and had them shoot at paper targets, well over half would barely hit what they were aiming at. I am guessing many would even have their eyes closed while firing, or not even know how to properly load it.
Creekdog, that's right. When you can't answer a question just use profanity (or the symbols for profanity) and stomp your feet. That doesn't do much to help your case. I am also guessing you missed the part where I said I am not looking to ban guns. I don't have a problem with people privately owning handguns. I do feel they should be held more responsible for the guns they own, but I don't think it should be illegal for people to buy them. As for you saying usa1967 answered my question, you answered before he did. So how you reference his answer as to why you had not answered my question is beyond me. Which, by the way, he is also wrong about in many circumstances. Many shows DO require ALL firearms are unloaded before entering the show. Not just the ones for sale.
As for your other answer about your little side window by your door. Well, first, now you're assuming Mr Clements had a way to view who was at his door before opening it. Not all doors have a window next to the door to see who is outside. Second, my guess is this person didn't show up looking like someone who was ready to kill him in cold blood. He probably looked like an average Joe, and waited to draw his weapon until he heard the door unlatching, which would have been after Mr Clements looked out his little side window (if he even had one).
I'm going to have to agree with you here. Owning a gun doesn't ensure your safety. Having awareness does.
This part might not be true. But I do agree that there is no guarantee that gun owners who don't practice frequently will be able to hit their target. Heck, that's why the 30 round clips are favored by the gangs of Chicago. They can't hit the broad side of a barn, they just want more chances to hit something.
Thanks, Nick, for your objective insight. Then, the only people with guns would be people like this killer. Moron. I don't know, maybe stand to the side of the door (gun in hand and cocked) and ask "who's there?", Unknown? "Come back tomorrow." Oh and by the way. He was probably shot with a hand gun, with less than 7 rounds in the magazine.
Handgun bans are also unconstitutional. I don't know why this is a talking point. Gun control advocates will say "alright, let's eliminate the type of gun used in the vast majority of crimes. Yeah! Trying mugging me with a long rifle in a dark alley!"
I hope his family can find peace and justice
@damon-1415903; Sorry I cannot agree with you. This person probably lives in a very low crime neighborhood and doesn't even think about crime once he gets home to relax. Someone or some group had his number and it was to happen right there.
Commissioner - Rest in Peace.
I was a LEO for 26 years and the idiot gov in my state wants to take away my magazines.
skiining111,
One of the dumbest questions I believe I've ever heard. Nobody walks around with a loaded gun without a concealed carry permit. First, if everybody walked around with loaded guns out in the open at a gun show they would be breaking the law. Second, for safety's sake the guns for sale at a gun show are not loaded although everyone of them is still treated as loaded by the individuals at the gun show. Please do us all a favor don't get near a gun without proper training. You remind me of one of those individuals your read about who kills himself/herself while cleaning their gun.
skiing111,
What profanity?! Your just simply a clueless guy. Reading your posts makes you look like a hypocrite.
Really, go back and comprehends what you wrote. Hypocrite is not profanity, it's a descriptive "statement". You own a gun "but" everone else that does is an irresponsible American... as you say...Pfffft... Whatever.
You along with ExYahooUser are just going to be another statistic one day.
Gotta go now, I cannot waste my time anymore on another clueless person.
Actually, one more...
Nor has it risen...
Maybe he should have asked Who it was before opening the door ?
Harry Reid kill the ban gun bill yesterday it won't come to the floor, he couldn't get enough votes from DEMOCRATS.
However the left will blame NRA anyway because the media will carry the water for gun-banners.
No amount of gun control would have prevented this PERIOD!
This was a cold blooded hit
What makes you think it was a criminal? My money is on disgruntled former employee.
Hummmmmmmmmmm ~~~ Individuals that are in or have been in certain occupations don't live in "glass houses!" Most that want to survive, take their security seriously. Opening a door to any smiling stranger or anyone can be risky. (I'm always leery of "smilers" everywhere)
Security doesn't have to mean alarms or expensive systems, just ways to people from taking deceptive & opportunistic advantage of you in your home .... the way they are routed to the entrance; a locked garden gate that must be passed through, that rings a bell when opened .. they have to get close to you to bring you harm ..generally. Persons that have no legitimate business on your property, need to be discouraged, kept away .. Friends and neighbors call before coming to your door ..
Regretfully, Mr Clements let his guard down .. and paid the price ... RIP .. condolences to his family..
If he was not a criminal before he shot him, he is now.
Just read something that said, Banning guns from normal citizens is like banning cars from non-drinkers, because of drunk drivers.
This makes no sense at all. How would a would-be shooter know which teacher(s) to shoot first??? It's not like there's a sign out front that says "Mrs. Jones is our friendly armed teacher today." There's a reason it's called CONCEALED carry. You've probably stood next to me in line at the grocery and never had a clue I was carrying a handgun. That's the point. If any of those teachers were armed, it could easily be possible that one or more of them could have stopped the shooter at Sandy Hook and minimized the number of victims. He was obviously a coward, since he shot himself at the first sign of resistance (police arriving on the scene).
As for the gun show guns being unloaded, I'd say that's more of a safety precaution since attendees would likely be handling any gun they are considering buying. The gun shows officials have no idea whether the attendees have ever even SEEN a gun, let alone whether they are smart enough to know how to handle it safely. It makes perfect sense that those guns would be required to be unloaded.
My bet goes to a disgruntled employee or, a former inmate. This sure doesn't look like a random hit to me.
Nick Thompson-5365573 Comment collapsed by the community
And what reason is that exactly??? So that 300 years from now, once all of the guns have finally been rounded up and all of our borders are secured with 20 foot fences, these type of shooting MIGHT NOT take place anymore??
After reading the comments here I'm now convinced that Obama SHOULD take [nearly] everyone's guns away!!
You're all sick, and dangerously stupid.
Creekdog
So I guess this doesn't imply profanity huh?
See? I am trying to have an honest discussion about guns with someone who clearly likes them but it's obviously not possible. As I have mentioned repeatedly now, I am not against people being allowed to carry a handgun. I just find it laughable that you all think you are SO invincible just because you have a gun. Just keep kicking and stomping your feet. It REALLY does a lot of good for your side of the argument. It just shows how irrational gun owners can be.
"I look out my side window before opening the door."
Well, of course U do C Dog. U & I have more brains than the average soap opera charactor. GM!
"Does it? What if they are in a delivery uniform and get you to drop your guard? Is your advantage still there?"
If 1 drops their guard just because of a uniform, then they'll get whats coming. Of course, these R the same people that think the cops will protect them-just because they wear a uniform & have a gun.
Dumbledore, you say my statement about a shooter knowing who to shoot first in a school makes no sense. Well let's see... if a shooter walks into a classroom and he/she sees a teacher and a bunch of 5 and 6 year old kids, who is most likely to be armed? You're argument implies there are multiple teachers in each classroom and the shooter will have to choose from those on who to shoot first. The shooter walks into a classroom where he knows teachers are allowed to carry, makes the BRILLIANT deduction that of the 21 people in the classroom (20 of which are 5 and 6 years old) that the one teacher in the room might be the one carrying. Wow... that shooter must be psychic. Based on the fact that 21 people are in the room, the shooter had less than a 5% chance of picking the correct person to shoot. Or maybe it's just easy to figure out that an adult would have a gun and not a bunch of 5 and 6 year olds.
The only way to fight fire is with more and bigger fires.
The best way to prevent getting burned is if everyone had their own flamethrowers and were taught how to set the right things ablaze.
If you ban matches, only arsonists will be able to incinerate things.
Only you can prevent forest fires...
GM skiing. No, I don't want 2 get in between your argument with Dog but I have a comment 4 this:
"I just find it laughable that you all think you are SO invincible just because you have a gun."
Not all of us feel "invincible". 4 me, it's just another layer of protection.
The security system (the warning), the Sheppard (probably dying 2 give me a few extra seconds), the arsenal.
When seconds count, the cops R only minutes away.
One more thing Dumbledore,
My statement about unloaded guns at gun shows wasn't about the guns for sale. That's just common sense. My statement about unloaded guns was for the fact that MANY gun shows do NOT allow people to carry in their own personal firearms (not ones for sale) unless they are unloaded. Sometimes they are not allowed to carry in concealed weapons at all. Some shows do not care. Obviously weapons that are on sale to the general public are going to Always be unloaded, but in many cases people's own personal firearms are not allowed through the doors because it is considered a danger. Do your research and you'll see. I know people who own gun related business' that tell me they have been to shows where they were not allowed to bring loaded personal (NOT ONE FOR SALE) firearms inside.
Reply: It's me, the Easter Bunny, open up I've got some candy for you. "hey honey, the Easter Bunny's here!" Bam, bam, bam, bam.
Udontsay, I respect the fact that you feel you have an extra layer of protection. I really do. I just see too many people saying that they could have taken down the shooter in the movie theater of school if someone had been armed. I am of the opinion that it's difficult to say exactly how things would have played out if someone had been armed. People shooting at a gun range on the weekends and managing to hit the center of a target is a HUGE difference from trying to hit a moving target in a dark movie theater filled with teargas and innocent people running everywhere. Police officers are trained in ways that the general public does not have access to and even they have difficulty hitting a suspect in a shootout. And that's in a situation where there are not innocent people, a dark movie theater and teargas in the equation.
but like I said, I respect the fact that you feel it's an extra layer of protection. I just think too many people feel things are able to be wrapped up too easily without considering all the variables.
Nick!
Better prove to us that in doing so whoever shot him would not have had access to a gun!
You're looking pretty stupid, bucko.
Stay classy!
My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and friends.
Banning guns is NOT the solution. I'm a gun owner and a proud NRA member (actually was a member even before I bought my gun) and I believe in the 2nd Amendment. Be careful what you wish for; as someone else posted take a good hard long look at Germany in the 1930's.......of course that may be too hard for some of you to actually pick up a book and read it.
Poverty, drugs, mental issues, moral and ethical stance are legitimate areas to address as sources of criminality. Clothing, food, houses, medicine cabinets, hospital beds, church pews, gavels, iron bars, guns and pens - have no opinion at all.
@skiing,
I totally agree with your comments concerning the movie theater shooting; Unless there was an off-duty cop (with his/her weapon) or an ex-military (also carrying concealed)-U know, people who have training and/or experience for these types of situations-I don't believe the average person (even C Dog or myself) would have been able 2 react in time 2 make a difference. I'll admit, that when the movie shooting first happened, I had a different view. I'm glad I have the ability 2 think & change my mind.
But we were talking about a threat at home, here.
If the perp had any other weapon other than a gun, this article would not exists, but Tom Clements would have been just as dead. It was obviously a surprise attack, maybe they would not have rang the doorbell, but any weapon, eg a screwdriver, can kill anyone not expecting it.
Idiots just want to fight for their agenda, no matter whether it is germane to the argument or not...idiots.
SITUATIONAL AWARENESS
If he HAD a gun his situational awareness would have been heightened and he would have answered the door more appropriately.
I know what U mean, Sheryl.
Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Chairman Mao....
Some people just can't (or don't want 2) learn from history-which means that history WILL B repeated.
@zorloc,
When one doesn't learn the lessons of history, it is bound to repeat itself. Think it can't happen here? The naivety of you Libs never ceases to amaze me.
Another poster pointed out that being armed and looking out a side window FIRST before answering most likely would have made the difference, a position I strongly agree with. Someone who holds a position like Clements really should have something like that or a camera at the front door.
My condolences to his family.
he was killed and could have been anyone... I doubt if he was armed this would have ended differently (if he wasn't), and the killer would have even taken the weapon if he'd been known to have one on his person...sounds like he was shot in the head, and the killer immediately left after the shot was fired.. making it a hit. I don't think taxpayers need to foot the bill for corrections officers to have armed detail... guessing he has CC permit as well.
only if you riddle me this...
why is there a big push for an assault ban, when the assault rifle was left in the trunk, and never used in the shootings?
why was one of the victims, shown in a photo with Obama days after the attack?
why was the main donations website made 2 days before the attack?
why was Robbie Parker seen and video taped laughing with reporters seconds before going on live tv as a father of the same little girl who was a victim and shown to "get into character" as he was preparing to talk to reporters?
who was the man arrested in the woods yards from the scene, placed in the "front seat" of a squad car, unattended?
lots of questions?
Extremely unlikely unless he could dodge bullets while simultaneously aiming and returning fire.
Proud.American.Veteran
After reading your post I am convinced that you need to change your screen name.
Udontsay...
I understand what you mean about a threat at home. But at the same time I don't believe Mr Clements would still be alive if he was carrying. I believe when someone is ambushed they have almost no chance. Hell, it happens to police officers all the time. They are certainly always carrying and they are certainly well trained. Yet many police officers are ambushed and gunned down. I think if someone is coming for you with the intention of ambushing you, you have no chance. Where the layer of protection might come in, is in the case of someone breaking into your house in the middle of the night. I don't think creekdog saying he looks out his little window and therefore he is prepared for what might happen makes sense. I don't know if that is truly a jehovahs witness dressed in a suit at my door or if it's someone posing as one to have me let my guard down. Sure, if he looks out his window and sees a gang banger then yeah, it's easy to figure out. It's just if someone is truly coming for you, they are going to probably try to deceive you.
As for my movie theater analogy, I brought up a question as a completely separate thing just as a debate. It was gun owners who responded saying I was stupid and that many more people would be alive if someone was carrying.
naughtymossy, stop getting your info from conspiracy theory websites.
@NaughtyMossy
Wow, that's just a whole bunch of crazy right there.
Regarding the part I bolded, Adam Lanza used an AR-15 rifle, that is not in dispute.
"jehovahs witness"
(snicker) I have found that the best way 2 get rid of them is 2 tell them that U R an atheist-whether it's true or not.
Oooo, I just had an idea. If I put a pentagram on my front door, maybe they won't knock at all! (thinking.....)
One last thing and then I have to go. For the people who believe that taking away the guns will cause another Hitler or Stalin... there are MANY countries in this world where gun ownership is not allowed and there is no Hitler or Stalin. England has a no guns policy and their country has existed long before ours with nary a dictator in their history. Not to mention having guns available does not guarantee there would never be a dictator. Before Fidel Castro, there was Bautista who was a tyrant. Yet, under him guns were legal to own. Guns were legal to own and yet they went from one dictator to another. So having them prevented nothing. Now granted Castro has outlawed them, but having them beforehand did nothing. And Great Britain not allowing guns has not caused a dictatorship there. So have your handguns if you wish, but stop fear mongering about Hitler and such.
One last thing, Hitler was democratically elected. He was extremely popular within Germany. I am in NO way saying he was a good man. I am just saying that even if guns had been available to the people, with his popularity, he would have likely been able to continue his reign of terror against other countries.
udontsay...
LOL! The pentagram might get them to try to convert you even more.
"The pentagram might get them to try to convert you even more."
*Gasp! *Horror!
I guess I'll just open the door & let the Sheppard have 'em. (snicker)
helicopter video footage showed officers removing the AR from the trunk, no other rifles, or shotguns were present inside the building, nor the trunk... does the camera lie now too? same with the little girl who had her photo taken (as a member of the Parker family) days after the shooting... just so happens FEMA was also just out of the blue conducting training for just such an incident in the same town on the same day? 26 killed, and no surviving victims? well one (and only one) taken out of the area on a gurney, and covered to the point you couldn't tell if there actually was a person on it... and no pictures of victims being removed from the building, or the person who supposedly was shot in the parking lot, covered in a sheet?
what gets me is when the proof is out there, people choose to ignore it... "choose". I also posted links backing everything I said on a previous thread, and was asked to be proven wrong... number of people who made an attempt to do so? =0.
While I'm saddened that an innocent man was ambushed and murdered, there is almost an element of poetic justice. On MSN's home page right next to this article is another one covering the governor of CO signing a gun control bill into law.
Say the gov had signed it last week. Today the warden would be alive and well.....NOT! Highly doubt it was a mature, responsible person with a legally obtained weapon that blew the warden away. This whole gun control nonsense thing has just had all the air let out of it's tires for good.
It's a shame that an innocent man had to die to prove the point.
My bet is on some gun-nut that wanted to make a statement about Colorado's new gun laws. Perhaps that should have made him a bit paranoid for a day or two but one shouldn't go about living your life that way, it's not good for your mental health.
http://pinoytutorial.com/techtorial/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting.jpg
where are the emergency response vehicals?
http://s0.jrnl.ie/media/2012/12/connecticut-school-shooting-6-630x433.jpg
this same day, most of the teasching staff drove their black vans, and SUV's into work, for? meaning for 600 kids, see a lack of cars in a sealed off area that should be those of teachers?
http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1489938.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/The+website+for+Sandy+Hook+School
if classes were cancelled that day.... then where or why were there classes?
another look at victims... oh wait, there's that little girl with president Nobama?
http://www.vigli.org/Avalon/Sandy_Hook_School_Support_Fund_Date_of_creation.jpg
now thats thinking ahead....
http://www.thedailydigest.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Robbie-Parker-Laughing-Sandy-Hook-School.jpg
now talking about taking the death of your daughter hard... this poor guy!
http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sandy-1.jpg
http://chemtrailsplanet.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/sandy-hook-parker-family.jpg
it isn't because the people who want to keep Americans from having guns, don't want to dispute, just make it up. I saw the footage personally live, as they were searching the trunk of his car... they DID pull out a rifle or shotgun, yet denied fully this happened also. just because it ISNT in dispute, doesn't mean there is no reason for it not to be.
@ U don't say,
When you use single letters or numbers for words, you sound like a retarded 8th grader.
Grow up and use all of the keys.
guns bad... government good... next story please
There will ALWAYS be criminals, there will ALWAYS be someone with a deviant mental capacity of reasoning, there will ALWAYS be be guns in society. What we have to do is realize that the most dangerous people among us will always seek to "divide and conquer", "isolate and confuse". Would you give a loaded gun to a 3 year old? When a "criminal" pulls that trigger they have no more reasoning and mental capacity than a 3 year old. They want what you have and will take it, even if you object. This is all the more reason to make guns HARDER TO OBTAIN. They will be around but make it harder for a criminal to get their killing hands on one. If you need a gun then in most cases you are looking to use it on "something". There will never be consensus on banning guns, some just "need" the physiological assurance of "self protection", THESE PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. They lie to themselves and are mentally incapable of true peace. The same gun worshipers are the first to condemn others of their RIGHT to disavow gun use, as much as we hate guns we are secure in our minds that reason will always prevail, or the human experience is truly a blip on the historical scale. We were given the opportunity to THINK AND REASON, do not become a three year old with a loaded gun. Background checks ON ALL GUN SALES, mandatory licensing of all firearms with A NATIONAL DATA BASE and individual weapon "fingerprint". All guns capable of rapid fire should have YEARLY FEE'S ASSESSED BY WEAPON DESTRUCTIVE CAPABILITY, full auto weapons should have at least a $5,000 fee. IF GUNS ARE YOUR LIFE THEN YOU SHOULD PAY FOR THE PRIVILEGE!
Wow, Jeff. That's a great argument 4 this discussion. (yep, that's sarcasm)
♪♫I know, it's only rock & roll but I like it.♪♫
ray4ausa - The ownership of guns is not a privilege in America, it is a right. If you support an agenda of manipulation, power and control by the government over the People and their rights, you should certainly be able to understand why it will continue to be met with lawful resistance.
it was a shotgun, that's in the police report.
http://www.ct.gov/despp/cwp/view.asp?Q=517284
and the rest of your crap, for example:
/palmface
Perhaps AFTERNOON Kindergarten classes were canceled because there was a SCHOOL SHOOTING THAT MORNING (circa 9:30am)
Seriously now, you're sounding crazy with all that conspiracy nonsense. You've officially lost all credibility in this discussion (and severely damaged your credibility in any others).
There is no dispute of the facts of this case. The Sandy Hook elementary school shooting DID happen, it was NOT a hoax (or a setup). 20 children and 6 teachers died. The killer DID use an AR-15 rifle to kill all the children and teachers, he offed himself with a handgun. These facts are indisputable, and to do so shows your complete lack sanity. Period. End of discussion.
Sking111 - There are many societies that don't have guns that are totalitarian. England is a very different society than America, as all societies are different. How is it that England, who had slavery, was able to eradicate it in the 1800's and have unity out of it, while we still have problems? That research should keep you busy for quite awhile - no civil war, no civil rights agenda, no affirmative action, no self perpetuating racism. Guns are not a societal problem - our societal problems are the attitudes and actions of people who treat symptoms instead of dis-ease. America is uniquely sovereign and holds differences that make us unlike all other countries. Gunowners are breaking no laws, while this administration's agenda is transparently divisive, undermining, ridiculing and unlawfully working to separate citizens from their rights. Unyielding pushback on that reality is understandable, applaudable, lawful and certain.
What a lot of interesting responses! Here are my votes for some of them:
Most "Unbiased" Screen Name: Libturds are Worthless. (Post 1.40) Who wrote an equally unbiased comment: "Or A$$holes like you."
Stupidist Post: Naughty Mossy. (Post 1.80) All the points you brought up were debunked a LONG time ago. Why repeat them when they are so obviously untrue? Just want to stir up trouble?
Poster Stuck in a Rut: Creek Dog. Seems like every time you post, on any thread, you apparently want to defend your position without regard to other people's rights to have opinions.
Most Ignored Intelligent Poster: It's Simple 3093757 (Post 1.18) A clear, analytical, and intelligent explanation of what would happen over the long term if a ban were placed on assault weapons, ending with the statement: "Doing nothing and arming everyone at all times is simply illogical." Looks like only one person bothered to respond (at least so far), and that seemed to be an off-the-cuff remark. (Wagewatcher, Post 1.27)
Most Consistently Open-Minded Poster: Skiing111. A comment from Skiing111: "I am not looking to ban guns . . ." Another comment: "I am trying to have an honest discussion about guns with someone who clearly likes them but it's obviously not possible." These sound open minded and reasonable to me as well as many other of his/her comments. On the other hand, there is a bit of sarcasm, and perhaps a touch of argumentativeness . . . just my kind of poster!
Most Irrelevant Comment: Kirigami. Yes, me in this case! They say that laughter is the best medicine, and there was much to make me laugh in this long line of posts on this very serious topic.
Well, this was fun, though off-topic. Thanks for your indulgence. Any additions, suggestions, or changes to recommend?
It would seem to me, that assuming some former inmate did this, and went to the trouble of finding this guy, and taking a the risk going back to prison for the rest of his life by obtaining a gun, and then killing this man on the front stoop of his own home, this warden must have done something awfully awfully terrible to such a person, or allowed something awfully terrible to happen to an inmate who was under his custody and control, in order to make a former inmate go back and do something like this.
I guess I must be thinking of that Sandusky guy who raped all those little boys while out there in the middle of nowhere, alone, and without parents, having already been identified as "troubled youths" those kids had no protection from Jerry Sandusky raping them.
Trynka - No, the guy most likely did NOT buy the gun at a gun show. Most people like that get stolen guns on the black market. I even know how to get one. You just have to know the darker elements of society. But banning guns will not do anything to stop the killing. If anything, it will make our society LESS safe. And yes, it opens us up to tyranny. If you think our government is benevolent and would never use force against the people, you are horribly naive. Just because it has not happened yet on any large scale (but it has on many smaller scales...though you probably are not aware of most of the incidents), doesn't mean it can't or won't. As long as the people (citizens) are well armed, the chances of government tyranny are much smaller. We are NOT safer with less guns--we are safer only when the 2nd Amendment is unencumbered. In other words, what part of "shall not be infringed" do people not understand?
TO: trust2112 who wrote:
Because that was the deceased's line of work. He was a corrections officer or warden or commissioner, something like that, and this deed itself is a "crime", so they're "putting 2 and 2 together" trying to figure out what happened, and why.
Folks are assuming it was "payback" for the guy just "being" a corrections officer. I agree it could be "payback" but whoever did this had to be terribly terribly injured in order to go this far out the way to commit this horrible crime.
Ray, when you make guns "harder to obtain", you are only making it hard for the law abiding citizens. Criminals (and no, they are not all like 3 year olds mentally) can easily get guns. Dang, I know how to get guns illegally and I am not a criminal!! But seriously, all the laws do is make it worse for the good, law abiding citizens. Even if you try to restrict all gun availability across the nation or even worldwide, the criminals will ALWAYS find a way to get them. Only the good folk will be at the mercy not only of the criminals but also of the tyrannical, controlling and powermongering government.
TO: redvirginia who wrote:
Yes? That's fine. You know, there are many Democrats that own guns too.
The United States Constitution provides for "the right to bear arms".
Naughty, you are a special kind of stupid.
let's see, based on the screenshots you provided...
I see a typical number of vehicles in the parking lot for an Elementary school... black and silver SUVs begin two of the most popular vehicles that regular people drive these days. But according to you, it's "OMG! Normal people *never* drive black SUVS! Everyone *knows* only the Gub'Mint drives black SUVS! Conspiracy!"
That notice of classes cancelled....well right there in the very screenshot you provided, it states that AFTERNOON KINDERGARTEN was cancelled. Notice there is no mention of other classes being cancelled that day.
I did my own Google search based on your screenshot. When I filter for sites indexed on or before DEC 11. NONE of the websites in your screenshot show at all. However, when I filter for all sites on or before DEC 17, your sites show up in the results. Now get this, according to Google search I just did, the website was indexed on DEC 14 ... *NOT* DEC 11 ... This tells me your picture has been altered to erase part of the "4", to make it appear as if the site was indexed earlier.
As for the picture showing the father "smiling" ... why is the picture stretched so wide? Could it be someone took a picture of a Standard (4x3 picture ratio) Broadcast stretched out on a 16x9 HDTV? Why YES, it is! When I shrink the image back down to it's ORIGINAL 4x3 broadcast ratio, the "smile" turns into a grimace. Now, why do you suppose a website would use a stretched image instead of a screen-cap of the original broadcast? Perhaps to make the grimace on the guy's face look wider, and thus make it look more like a smile instead of a grimace?
And those pictures of the girls? It's already been proven those are from months before the attack. The ones claiming to be taken "after" the shootings have been shown to be manipulated and/or re-posted images meant to make it look like they were taken afterward.
You are an outright LIAR. Your friends are LIARS. And the very "evidence" you presented here to us shows us that everything you have said is a lie.
The only question is, whether you are just an idiot parroting what you've heard, or whether you are delibarely perpetuating the lie, in the hopes it will start a revolt against the people in office that you happen to hate.
Careful Nick, you're letting your teams real rabid agenda out. "Another reason we should BAN guns". Not limit, regulate, register but BAN them. Can't unring the bell bud.
it should be, Billy its time to catch your buss now, and don't forget your gun! and don;t point it at anyone unless you intend to kill them, and don't kill anyone that isn't asking for it, see you after school. now who want's to Puck with Billy?
Everyone seems to want to assume it is some ex-con. Why wouldn't it be the wife's lover like it is 99% of the time in similar cases? Is it you, Buttafuoco?
American Girl,
I will tell you from experience. Criminals don't need a reason to take a shot at law enforcement. Just the fact that we arrested them or incarcerated them is enough to put you in the bullseye.
How did Adam Lanza shoot himself in the head with a rifle that was left in his locked trunk, there is something wrong with the story and why were the parent's that lost children laughing just before the interview and asked for time to re compose, before talking, how did the little girl that was shot dead wind up in another video behind Obama, after the shooting, that's really good acting.
Just as likely a corrections officer as an ex-inmate.
Kirigami, great post.
Of course you sense some argumentativeness. I may be open minded and fair, but I also have strong opinions. As for my Sarcasm, just ask my wife about that. I can honestly say there are times when she doesn't LOVE my sarcasm. :-)
But once again, great post.
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Don't shake your head answer the question are you saying you don't know? watch the videos of the interviews then watch the conspiracy videos, they are the same people. that is some good acting true or not.
Like how? He might of killed the little girl from next door who came over to try and sell her girl scout cookies? What kind of world do you live in where it is normal for people to answer the door with a gun? You have my deepest sympathy!
I'm a serious gun control advocate, but (a) I don't believe we should "ban all guns," and (b) even if I did, this incident doesn't support the case to do so.
You simply have to agree that if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns. There will then be no chance that when law-abiding citizens answer their doors at night, the bad guys won't win.
The fact of the matter is that criminals will have guns and simply banning them won't change that.
A better case for gun control is the disabled man who killed a Wal-Mart manager because they were having some kind of disagreement about his companion dog. That incident is why we don't want just everybody walking around with a concealed handgun.
We can have sensible restrictions that mean it's harder for the wrong people to get guns. Broaden and strengthen background checks. Require appropriate testing and re-testing to obtain a license, as we do with cars. Prosecute gun traffickers and people who attempt to purchase firearms illegally. And a few things that aren't being discussed widely right now should be added, namely: require gun owners to keep them appropriately secured to reduce the incidence of guns being stolen in burglaries, and require the immediate reporting of lost and stolen guns.
And we can have sensible restrictions that mean it's harder for someone to sustain mass destruction with the guns they do have. In particular, that means limiting high-capacity magazines. Loughner -- the Tucson shooter -- was stopped by unarmed bystanders when he had to stop to reload.
Once again, as a practical solution, "banning all guns" will tip the balance of gun ownership in favor of the criminals. We want to go in the exact opposite direction. If we don't ban gun ownership, but instead apply pressures that make it harder for criminals and nuts to get guns (and, of course, confiscate their guns when they get themselves arrested -- after all, they are criminals, remember), we can start to tilt the balance of gun ownership.
Had Mr. Clements been armed he still probably would have gotten killed since no one really expects a murderer to walk up to their front door to kill you when you open the door. It's difficult to dodge an ambush without any prior warning.
However, calling 911 & relying on the police isn't the answer either. Once again the police showed up in time to write their reports & to take pictures of the deceased. Police can only react after a criminal has already attacked. Anyone who relies on the police for their safety is fooling themselves with a false sense of security.
Condolences to the Clements family.
Instead of banning guns or increasing the number of hoops legitimate owners have to jump throuh, why don't we just ban front doors? If he didn't have to answer the front door, he would still be alive. This is a much better solution that banning guns. That way we would ALL be safer.
This poor guy now statistically represents one fiftieth of a gun free Chicago weekend.
issue all judges...little friends to anwser the door...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVQ8byG2mY8
skiing111 (post 1.115)--Thank you for replying to my note (1.102) so positively! I was beginning to feel unloved . . . well, ignored, at least! Argumentative? Open-minded and fair? Strongly opinionated? Sarcastic on occasion? I'm sure part of the reason I admire these qualities of yours is because I too possess them (or so I've been told)! In any case, thanks for the feedback!
RonB from Pittsburgh (post 1.119)--I appreciate your well thought out post. I too am a "serious gun control advocate." The key word, of course, is CONTROL, not ban! You wrote that we could have sensible restrictions, which would make it harder for the wrong people to get guns. How true! You have great suggestions for that, too.
It seems that logically, the NRA would want to support such legislation. This would take so much of the pressure off them, and they wouldn't constantly have to be on either the offensive or the defensive. Very few people want to take away their Second Amendment rights! But no one should be able to take away my right to life (and liberty, and pursuit of happiness), either. Very few people really want to ban guns and take away the right of folks to have them. To paraphrase, yes, we do need SENSIBLE restrictions that make it harder for the wrong people to possess guns.
As you so eloquently stated:
What a great idea. Let's do it!
Without a doubt, if guns had been illegal this man would still be alive. The killer simply would have stayed home and watched TV.
Being head of corrections must pay pretty well. A house that size in expensive CO must have cost a pretty penny. Are Colorado's prisons privately run? Was he taking money under the table?
Perhaps the blond woman "speed walking" near the house was a jilted lover. Would explain why he opened the door - she was known to him.
you probably won't see this (cause it's a day late), but Lanza shot himself in the head with one of the handguns he had, and he used the AR-15 on all of his victims.
This has been well reported, it's actually surprising you didn't know this (unless you don't WANT to know this so conspiracy theories can run rampant in your head).
This, while sounding good on paper, simply won't work. Case in point. I just sold my .45 Colt Commander to my child molesting pedophile felonious neighbor (his sordid past completely unbeknownst to me). He's been my neighbor for years and seemed like a stand up guy, so I felt no compulsion to jump through any beaureucratic hoops to do any check. How do you strengthen background checks on personal sales? New laws? Make penalties harsher for private sales gone awry? Remember, restrictions are only for those who choose to follow them, namely the law abiding. Criminals will never compy will any restrictions or bans.
Chuckzul, you're not thinking of this broadly enough.
The pool of guns in the hands of criminals has to come from a legal source at some point. I would venture to say that criminals need to replenish that pool at a significantly higher rate than law abiding citizens do, through lack of proper care, or through disposing of them in the river, or through confiscation during an arrest.
If we can significantly slow down the ways in which the pool of guns in the hands of criminals gets replenished, then the pool is going to begin to move toward empty.
What you say is true. Criminals don't obey laws. But if that pool is moving toward dry, where are they going to get more guns?
There are to many guns now, all the cryin in the world won't change that..
Honesty, Honor, respect, commitment, suffer the consequences, love, help, manners is what we need.
This country for some reason can't fix disrespectful.
Amen, Nick
Condolences to his family and friends. I wouldn't want his job on a bet. Kudos to those who manage prisons and put their lives in danger from running facilities full of sociopathic scum.
Clearly, what we need is fewer criminals ... who murder, whether they use guns or not. Until this country gets some cohesive program together on preventing the collision of issues inside low income/low education/low employment/substance abusing people/families who give birth to most of this country's entitled psycho thugs, the inmates will be in charge.
Yeah, because making sure that a law abiding citizen with no record can't own a gun would have prevented this?
Where did you people go to school? You clearly lack all rational thought.
The world is scary outside your parents' basement, pal.
The White House administration - and all that support it - have instigated a fight to wrest control from citizens whose rights under law are settled. The fight to separate the People from their rights is unlawful oppression being met with lawful resistance.
There seems to be an assumption that every killing or any incident involving a gun, that the crime was committed by a crimminal. you have people with no crimminal history committing a lot of these crimes
Yeah your absolutely correct. I'm sure the shooter had a safety class and registered gun and current permit when he did it.
“Together we are ‘building a safer Colorado for today and tomorrow,’” Clements wrote in the message.
Yeah Its working, One less Crook on the streets. Something was going on. Maybe it was his Boyfriends jealous Lover. Oh Well!!
U dont Say has a good point, get a Shepard, or any trained dog, I have two Shepard's, both Shutzund trained, K@#$stays out at night and An#$% stays in. They will put their lives on the line with no question or hesitation. and they are fast.
could be any thing or any one, perhaps a bad business deal (Shaw shank Redemption) if you want to find corruption go to a prison! Drugs Smuggling everything and someone is always making a buck and as criminals go if you cheat someone they take revenge. if you live that close to crime it reaches out to you, maybe he just got touched? just a theory but a possible one. maybe the former great state of Colorado should beef up their Gun laws some more the ones they adopted didn't work. go ahead outlaw all the guns then you won't need to arm the Police think of the savings. if guns were illegal then cops won't need them right, I remember England being that way in the past, I wonder why they carry guns now? doesn't matter the truth is if nobody has guns then police don't need them. do you understand now! criminals will always have guns, if citizens give theirs up then the criminals will have a superior advantage, police will be in greater danger themselves, and spread thinner by more crime and we all lose if you want to really save lives go after the highway system, and teenage drivers, that is where the real death toll is. how about someone texting while driving and causing a accident that kills a half dozen or more, outlaw texting and see what happens. or outlaw private transportation, you won't stop the dying. it will only get worse like everything man tries to control it becomes a bigger problem, there you go ban people that will solve the problem. start with Politicians.
harold - People who commit crimes are designated as 'criminal' only after being found guilty of an actual crime - hence the beginning of a 'criminal history'. We could suggest that, like some other countries, we just start villanizing and locking up 'certain' people because we can - an effective way to avoid all crime completely - except the government and its supporters would be the criminals then.
Harold, you say people with no "criminal history" are committing these crimes. There are a LOT of criminals who haven't be caught yet but they are STILL criminals. What planet do you live on?? Just because a person has never been arrested doesn't mean they are a law abiding citizen.
My deepest sympathy to Mr. Clemons, family and friends.
To those of you who believe "he would have been alive if he had had a gun, in his hand," what if his grandchild, had answered the door? Whatever the reason Mr. Clemons was murdered, by someone with a gun. "Guns don't kill people, people do!' Stop selling guns to people.
I think anyone that supports a change in the constitution or ban on weapons is committing a crime and should be locked up, regardless of who they are treason is treason especially if you are a politician and took the oath to protect and defend the constitution, then turn around and try to change or manipulate it. that is criminal, so with that in mind do you think we should consider all liberals that want controls to be criminal and therefore ineligible to posses a fire arm, and being criminals should we have the responsibility to round them all up and put them in a reform facility, can you see where this leads when viewed from a alternate direction, you people are setting yourselves up for the unknown. if Obama gets his rules of translation of the constitution then everything can change first off no one will be able to posses a weapon because they can not pass the mental requirement because some liberal mental health counselor has the power to say no. giving one class power over the other! freedom of speech is already on its way out because you have to be PC and if you aren't then its a hate crime. homeland security can take you away any time they please, so can the secret service you are losing rights every day and other rights are being suspended and you are willing to give up the one right that protects all rights? that's just dumb. if that right goes then executive action will become the rule of the land and freedom is lost forever, whats left of it.
Yeah Right. Way too late to ban guns and the criminals will always find them. You can take my guns...out of my cold, dead hands.
The point of gun control is not to keep criminals from getting guns. Criminals get guns mostly by stealing them from clueless law-abiding citizens. We want to stop the reckless proliferation of guns, especially assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. We're just trying to give our poor police officers a break here. Remember, the high school student with a grudge, the disgruntled employee, the ex-husband in a custody dispute, are not criminals to begin with. They only become criminals when they get their hands on a gun and go ape $hit. Criminals are made, not born.
S. Williams-430936
Got some facts to back this claim by chance?
Especially the ones that are rarely used in crimes but look real scary. Yeah, that makes sense
Remember, they are also not sane rational people. I don't care how pissed off you are, a normal person doesn't grab a gun and kill people because they are "disgruntled". How about we find a way to keep the guns away from the mentally unstable people and leave the rest of us alone.
Actually that's not true. The majority of guns in criminal hands are obtained from straw purchases and gun trafficking rings.
Basically, a "law-abiding" clandestine citizen who can pass the necessary background check and then resells the firearm to criminals (or to a middle man who then sells those weapons to criminals).
"Hot guns" (that is, stolen firearms) DO make their way into criminal hands, but they are by far the minority of guns that do so (10-15%).
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html
to be fair, that is also not true. "Normal" people snap every day and become disgruntled killers. There are literally hundreds of homicide stories out there wherein friends, neighbors, and family members are quoted as saying "He/She (let's be honest, it's almost always a 'He') was so nice, he seemed so normal. Our kids used to play together, I can't believe he would do such a thing.
Yes, these people obviously had some deep seeded mental issues barely perceptible to society at large, but "normal" people snap every day.
I used to have a T-shirt that said that.... back when I was 13.
with HEPPA laws, this will be an impossible feat. the mentally unstable, will just like a criminal find a way to get one anyway, if not find an alternative method. In Asian countries, they like to grab a knife and go to town on little kids/teachers... basically if you want to kill someone, and you don't have access to a firearm, you will use an alternative.
you actually sound clueless on the matter to be honest. the more than average person is responsible, and if a weapon IS stolen, usually its from a family member, or during a home robbery. with advanced gun control making firearms even more valuable, they will not pass up the revenue. toss in the bag and go sell it on the street with the rest of what they took. Use it to commit a violent crime before selling? not likely, a firearms value decreases dramatically if previously used in a crime. I was offered a nice price on a .38 special $10.00 back in 85' because it was "hot". yet "smart" people kno better than to get involved with these types once that deal is offered. the odds also of a criminal legally buying a "assault rifle" are slim to none unless part of a drug cartel where these are more supplied, than purchased by the user from a gun dealer, hence "straw buyers" come into play. Operation Fast and Furious is a prime exsample... limited buyers, and mass distribution from the buyers.... who actually were said to work for drug cartels.
so, what is being offered as a solution for gun control does nothing to solve anything, just take rights from law abiding Americans....
http://pinoytutorial.com/techtorial/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/sandy-hook-elementary-school-shooting.jpg
where are the emergency response vehicals?
http://s0.jrnl.ie/media/2012/12/connecticut-school-shooting-6-630x433.jpg
this same day, most of the teasching staff drove their black vans, and SUV's into work, for? meaning for 600 kids, see a lack of cars in a sealed off area that should be those of teachers?
http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1489938.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/The+website+for+Sandy+Hook+School
if classes were cancelled that day.... then where or why were there classes?
another look at victims... oh wait, there's that little girl with president Nobama?
http://www.vigli.org/Avalon/Sandy_Hook_School_Support_Fund_Date_of_creation.jpg
now thats thinking ahead....
http://www.thedailydigest.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Robbie-Parker-Laughing-Sandy-Hook-School.jpg
now talking about taking the death of your daughter hard... this poor guy!
http://aattp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/sandy-1.jpg
http://chemtrailsplanet.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/sandy-hook-parker-family.jpg
S Williams -
"The point of gun control is not to keep criminals from getting guns...They only become criminals when they get their hands on a gun and go ape $hit. Criminals are made, not born."
So touching a gun causes 'ape $hit' syndrome in some people - an acute disease causing uncontrollable criminal response diagnosed later in life.
I see.
Are you aware of the studies on the government touching pens that causes 'unlawful $hit' syndrome?
Hey look, reposted bull@!$%# from a crazy conspiracy theorist.
Honestly, the 9-11 conspiracy theories are more locktight than the Sandy Hook ones, and even THOSE are bat@!$%# crazy.
William, that is not a bad idea, thanks for the tip!
PS, make sure you put on your Roy Rogers outfit so we know which one you are!
This is a case of stuff happens, and we need to find the reason/ motive if its dirty dealings politically we will never know the truth, this could be like 1980's Arkansas, people were dying all over the place, and committing suicide by shooting themselves in the head twice with two different guns, or accidentally stabbing themselves 129 times while shaving, hay what can I say stuff happens, there were about 30 some strange and unexplainable deaths and that's not the end of it. and they were all in a certain circle of associates. but that's all old news. death just hangs out around some people, can't stop that! this was not a act of revenge from a former resident something caused this to happen. maybe he knew something or did something, we will never know the truth, but we might be fed a story lets see if there are more deaths and a fall guy. in the mean time lets pass some more feel good gun control laws, ban everything that takes a cartridge. or just ban cartridges guns wont work without bullets. that way gun owners can have their guns and Fools can have their feel good safety measures.
S. Williams - The reason for the 2nd Amendment (... the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.) was not for the purpose of protecting people from criminals or for hunting. It was for "the security of a free state". In other words, the people are to be armed to protect them from a tyrannical government (and that also includes police, if necessary).
OK - sounds good!
Why do ppl keep spouting guns bring a false sense of security? If an intruder breaks in and you start shooting, he's not hanging around much longer. If he has a weapon, at least yours levels the playing field. Better wake up sheeple, there is no higher power of any kind protecting you, you gotta look after yourself.
I did time in KY and it's no @!$%#ing picnic to be locked up among psychos, perverts, thieves, sadists, mysophiliacs, misanthropes and other undesirables...and my fellow inmates were not so great either. Those bastards fed us garbage that a mangy dog wouldn't eat, turned off the heat when it was below zero and laughed about it, never missed a chance to physically and mentally abuse a prisoner, stole our property while the pod had rec time, ran a commissary that gouged us on prices and cheated us every time we placed an order, charged a pack of smokes,(coin of the realm inside), for an extra pop bottle of coffee, and you had to be near death before they would get medical attention for you, routinely placed lone Black prisoners in with idiotic skinheads so they would be beaten senseless. I try to be non-violent and do not condone killing...that being said, I am not the in the least surprised that someone offed this pig. I often wonder why there isn't more such vigilantism aimed at the trough wallowers in the criminal injustice system. I survived, but I am certainly not a better man for it. By the by, my awful crime was selling weed, only weed. ASHLEY JUDD (DEM-KY) 2014...Adios mitch---go lobby!
@B Hatfield. Cry me a river, boy. don't break the law and you won't have to worry about being on the inside. No pity here.
Burn in hell you p.o.s and all the rest of the scum that works for the D.O.C.
@Roger. If you directed that comment at me, you can take a piece of the crow you're about to eat and shove it up your rectum. No D.O.C. connections here, just despise miserable cons whining about their conditions on the "inside".
because statistically speaking guns DO bring a false sense of security. Bringing a gun into your home makes you, at a minimum, TWICE as likely to die by homicide as someone who lives in a home without one.
@farmall48, after we give up our right to personal defense what will stop the establishment from running over all of us and locking people up for little or no reason! why do you think our government wants to limit you when they know they cant control the criminals, is it easier to control the herd if the herd can not resist in any way, you will do what you are told by those who know what is best for you because you will have no choice its human nature to sh!t on people don't put yourself in a position to get s#it on. keep your rights, that's why they are there.
Hey farmall---don't believe I solicited any of your sympathy...just stating the facts maam, nothing but the facts. Believe you might need to get off those pills and smoke a bit of herb and mellow out. If you're not a trough wallower in the criminal injustice system you'd sure be a good candidate. Do you wax that chrome-dome every day? Do you cream your jeans when you stroke your 9mm penis substitute? Ah, go on back and watch the fox propaganda network. You be wantin' ol' Rash Limbo, fess up. Any wet dreams about ol' glenbeck lately? Can you spell pathetic? If people like me hadn't broken the law you'd still have your slaves and they could call you ol' massa farmall when you visited the slave quarters late at night. The 21st century is waiting for you...come on in.
Drowning Grover your statistics can not be proved till you compare those figures with not having guns and that is not possible so your assumption is useless. same applies to cars hammers knives....
@B Hatfield, you amuse me with your banal rantings.
@D Buck, Trust me, I'm totally opposed to gun control. Period. I don't know what I said to mislead you into thinking I was but, personal defense is tops on my list of "keeps".
Guns don't kill people. The bullets ripping through them do. Actually, approximately 90% of gun violence occurs by people who previously did not have a criminal record. Gun die hards like to keep spouting the whole criminal thing, but most gun violence victims are victims of someone they know, usually a family member.
90%??????????????
You mean all those Chicago gang-bangers are up-standing citizens?
Made up stat.
"Actually, approximately 90% of gun violence occurs by people who previously did not have a criminal record."
Do you have a source for that or did you just pull it out of your fat _ss?
No, they have no criminal record because they're 15 years old and haven't been caught yet.
lol... look at all the gun owners crying about made up stats. Gun owners are the kings of making up stats to suit their case.
Yup...just live knives.
Ban handguns.
Hey taken, I see you finally had the balls to writethe same 'ol same 'ol again. I was wondering where you were. I knew it was a matter of time.
Again,................................................"NOPE"
OMG man, you're totally unbelievable. LMAO....Wow.. Heh heh....
DavidP--sources? Did you get your "credible" data from one of the rabid gun hate groups like Brady or Mayors? You morons seem to think that guns have this magical power to posess and control. Guns are metal, plastic and wood. Most are tools, some are works of art. The more you gun haters blather on about this mythical, supernatural power of guns to corrupt, the more thankful I am that you don't own any(unless you are major league hypocrites like Feinstein and Mark Kelly). You guys need to quit playing your fantasy games with enchanted weapons and such--they are detaching what's left of your mind from reality.
Hey, at least Davey hasn't started..........yet.
Actually, approximately 100% of crimes are committed by criminals.
All anti-gun people, I own a gun, but, I don't tell any of you that you have to own one. So, don't tell me I can't own one.
David -
You need to post your sources, bucky, because what you claim goes against all research that I've read!
But then again, cowards like you don't care about reality, facts, and truth, do you?
NO ONE is telling you you can't own a gun.
Gonna have to call BS on David's numbers. The only part of gun violence that may be true of is suicide.
If we are honest with ourselves; we would conclude the punishment for murder should be an eye for an eye. Lets begin killing these punks by public hangings and shootings. I gurantee this action will curtail unnecessary crimes. We just don't have the guts to do it!
I knew I could find Arizona here making some lame reference to Chicago again. LOL...
Time to go back down into the tunnel...
GodblessAmerica-1789597
Sounds like a lot of gun worship there GBA. Don't you know that is a mortal sin?
You gun nuts remind of the guy that keeps beating his head against a wall and wonders why he has a headache!
- brilliant people! ..NOT!
And you remind me of the guy that has his head stuck up his ass.
LOL Stonepipe, only visible from the neck down for sure :-)...
GM and top of the day to you wwie. Nice boat. Surrounded by ice and snow here.:(
Thanks Stone, she's down in Miami right now. Had her out for bottom paint in Feb. Bahamas in May then back to Charleston sometime in June! Can't wait!.....oh back to the topic.....uh, ban criminals! :-)
Dang! How come everybody lives where it's nice and I don't????
Ban lightning. It kills people every year. It must be stopped.
Mmm, time to move Stone? I started out in Wisconsin....brrr. I wonder if Clements knew the shooter....
Good morning unfairunbalancedfox.....
You anti-gun nuts remind of the guy that keeps beating his head against a wall and wonders why he has a headache! Two way street.
How's your colon looking today? What!?..... Then just open your eyes man...
Good luck with your karate while I sit back cleaning my guns. One shot, one kill...
Take care now...
Hi sane gun carrying friends!
I just did a course for concealed carry permit in my state. It was great!!
The info I learned during the daylong course was worth 5x the money I paid.
****To give answer to all the gun hater's point that Mr. Clements could not have responded in time having had a gun himself to shoot his assailant, I say BS!!
>>>>Our instructor demonstrated on the range techniques he taught us in the class on how to respond to an assailant who has gun drawn and pointed already at us. Here's what he did. He jump to the side while turning his body sideways to limit the area of his exposed body while simultaneously shooting 5 rounds into the target in front in a tight shot to the heart.
WOW!!!! The instructor did all that in 3 seconds!!!!!!
Mr. Clements could have lived if he was a gun toting man who practiced firing his weapon regularly.
See, most criminals don't practice firing guns like law abiding citizens at ranges, therefore they are just as slow in their response when using a gun in a crime as the average Joe who does not practice shooting.
Moral of the story: Any law abiding citizen with a gun can survive an assailant pointing a gun at them if they are practiced and are PREPARED!!
ALL YOU GUN HATING STUPID IDIOTS...SHUT UP!
sounds like a good instructor. also sounds like a product of John Shaw. Thank you for taking the time and effort to become one of the knowing
Congrats, David. Welcome to the world of people smart enough not to bang our heads against the wall.
It's clearly debatable that if he had a gun when he answered the door if he'd have been able to survive the ambush, but it's not debatable that when you answer the door without a gun...
David-3994413
I don't know what you had to pay for that training but you could have gotten it for free. Look up 'Roy Rogers' on Netflix and scan down to 'Trail of Robin Hood.' About half way into the movie, Roy has to do just what you said your instructor showed you. He dodges to the left, turns sideways, and plugs the bad guy while twirling his pistol. Maybe your instructor saw that one too? YODELLE O DELL DOO!
How many people are agile enough to perform these evasive techniques. can someone 70 perform these tricks you learned and what if there are more than one shooter how do you avoid the other guy(s)
News stories like this motivate my family to head to the range! Let FREEDOM ring!
I am reading some of this now and laughing my A$$ off on some of these comments. @Creek Dog; you said, "
Good luck with your karate while I sit back cleaning my guns. One shot, one kill...
Take care now.." I love this one the best. Keep them coming thanks.
I find it very hard to cut in on some of these conversations so I am taking a back seat to this.
Ok Harold,
So what is your option, stand there and die anyways with no gun?
If I were 70 and faced a gun pointing at me by a criminal, I would die making the criminal die! Time for this heaven bound man to send this hell bound criminal to his chosen destination.
In an imperfect world everyone does the best they can in the situation they find themselves in.
Being old is no excuse for being a defenseless sheep.
Your choice?
I would like to see you try. You better be locked, loaded and prepared without hesitation. unfairunbalancedfox...what a joke. It is more balanced and fair than the rest of the lib stations and rags. A bunch of Liberal Pu$$ie$.
Seems you have anger issues. And you own a gun. Great combination.
William, there are millions of people who own guns and support the 2nd amendment who just happen to be people who aren't conservative/Republicans.
poor William you are the reason we need to limit gun ownership to sane people
No you guys don't get it. People like Craig and ownwoman and odb are exactly why our founding fathers gave us the right to bear arms..well them and the government :-)
IAMMYOWNWOMAN thank you for pointing that out. I think too many people forget the Bill of Rights.
As for odb2 and craigf1998 I have no anger issues, I am clearly stating the BILL OF RIGHTS gives me the right to bear arms. I will defend my family and my property with deadly force if necessary. Criminals will always find ways to get weapons, I am going to level the playing field.
There are also people who aren't conservative, don't own guns, but still support the Bill of Rights. I support your right to own and keep firearms. I don't support the right of a criminal to procure and keep firearms. You waive that right when you break the law and are convicted of your crime.
The problem faced by law enforcement who would like to enforce existing law is the backlash by gun advocates who would perceive any crackdown on dealers who sell to criminals as a crackdown on constitutionally protected commerce. Then the law enforcement agencies would see a curtailing of their authority and their funding would be slashed. It's happened before and mark my words it will happen again.
So what is the best solution? Doing nothing isn't working. And many forms of gun control are ineffective based on the limited data we can collect. I'm receptive to ideas here.
The violent crime rate has been going down in this country for several decades, Despite having an armed populace and having hundreds of millions of firearms being owned by the civilian population our crime rate is going down.
I think that depends on where you live. Nationally this is true. People on the streets of Chicago would disagree. This would suggest that a universal solution isn't best.
And examining the lone nut who decides the best way to off himself is to take a classroom/movie theater/political figure with him, these incidents are on the rise. They're an edge case, but they're a very visible edge case. Is there something culturally that makes people decide the best way to go out is in a blaze of sour grapes?
The Bill of Rights gives me the right to live.
You chickenhawks believe that your right to kill is greater than my right to live.
Yes, indeed, we need comprehensive mental health screenings before people are licensed to carry guns of any type.
When will it end.... I support the 2nd amendment. But you have to know that there is a difference between a Gun Law (that of 1986 era) and a constitutional right. Laws can be retracted in a blink. I support any action the government might take on registering guns (that is the law that can be wiped out or changed easily). I am not afraid that the government might take away my gun. They haven't done so for 237 years, why would they start now?
so many tough talkers in the comments of gun rights articles...
Ownwoman, they would start now because they have never had a leader like OSAMA. He is poison, whether he's blinded the majority of people or not, all I'm saying is I was a Democrat before the 12 election. His first four years were a travesty to say the least.
Gov't agents/LEO most certainly did confiscate guns in the wake of Katrina. At some point in time they made want to do it again, and some cry for safety or anything for the children is the excuse that they will use. They would use any list of gun owners at their diposal to accomplish this, along with current laws and executive orders trampling our other rights.
zfromdelco, I think perhaps you are a bit confused. OSAMA is NOT our leader! If he were our leader (assuming he was still alive), there would be much, much more terrorism in our country and the world.
Our leader is Barack OBAMA. Whatever you or I or any other people think of him as our President, he is in fact our duly elected President by a MAJORITY of voters last September. This means that those Obama haters are in the MINORITY. It is in fact a very LOUD minority, but it is a minority.
Even though you say: "His first four years were a travesty to say the least.", enough of our citizens elected him for another four years. So, whether you or I or anyone else likes it, he is our President. I don't know what will happen in the next 3 1/2 years any more than you do. It is my hope, however, that things will greatly improve in this nation in that time. I hope and pray that will be the case. Regardless, I do NOT feel that badmouthing him is going to improve the situation.
He answers his own Door? NEXT!
I am going to hire a stunt double to answer my door from now on.
Knock, knock----Candygram.
Candygram for Mongo! Candygram for Mongo. Sign here please.
So here is the history:
2nd Amendment passed by wise old farts saying that we need a militia but it must be regulated.
NRA formed in middle of 19th Century as an organization of folks interested in a common subject - hunting rifles.
Some guns made illegal (sawed-off shotguns and Thompson machine guns) during rise of serious criminal organizations in the 1920's.
NRA leadership bushwhacked in mid 1970's by rabid extremists who had strings tied to gun manufacturers.
NRA buys the Republican Party with threats and money from the gun and ammo industry as it brainwashes weak minds into buying more guns.
Gun regulations as supported in the 2nd Amendment wording is weakened by Republican stooges and right wing Supreme Court hacks.
As the use of high capacity assault weapons to kill innocent children rises, any rational discussion of whether it is reasonable to classify them in the same category as Thompsons is blocked by the screaming fanatics that can only spout what they hear on FOX.
The NRA claims it has nothing to do with all the guns on the streets of America...as they promote the epidemic of gun sales in America.
Very well written, tex2c2. Thanks!
A victim is a victim and condolences to his loved ones. That having been said, what on earth was he THINKING? He was in a position where a lot of people, most of them with "issues" hate him (prisoners, former prisoners, their parents who raised them, spouses of prisoners, their partners in love or life, etc.) Not to mention in a state where there are a lot of nutcases running around who feel "oppressed" by government just because the government expects them to follow the rules of civilized society. WHY live in the middle of nowhere and then answer your own door? A lot of anti-government groups specialize in publishing the home address of people in authority who are unpopular not because of who they are, but because of the job they do.
.
Probably the only known instance where Bidens solution would work. You know, shoot your shotgun through the closed door.
Wow!!! Your house wouldn't be fun on Halloween. "Trick or" BANG BANG BANG
Maybe some extremist was upset with Colorado's warehousing of criminals for profit and the black-market of drugs and cigarettes that goes on inside the facilities by prison employees, and on and on and on. The handgun is the quickest and easiest way to get the job done, right? ...but if a determined person wanted to kill and had no gun, they'd find a way with a different tool. Sincere sorrow to his family and those who loved him. More insanity.
RIP Mr. Clements. As far as the debate on guns.... criminals will always have one no matter what. My husband & I have guns.... we will protect ourselves, family & property. He hunts, I target shoot. It is the mind of a mentally deranged person that causes the problems that are happening now... not the gun itself....
as for you and your husband good for you. my gf yells at me cuz i carry my gun around the house. i saw a video of a guy. summer afternoon sitting in his house petting his dog. when 3 men walked right in grabed him robbed him and shot him in the head. all wile he had a gun in his room. but he also had cameras so they did catch 2 of the three. but hes still dead
"as for you and your husband good for you. my gf yells at me cuz i carry my gun around the house. i saw a video of a guy. summer afternoon sitting in his house petting his dog. when 3 men walked right in grabed him robbed him and shot him in the head. all wile he had a gun in his room. but he also had cameras so they did catch 2 of the three. but hes still dead"
Is there a point in there somewhere?
I myself prefer my side folding AK type rifle. Yes, I bang into things sometimes and it even causes me to misspell words when typing, but all in all the good outweighs the bad. Keep your guard up!
The first mental health problem in this country that needs to be addressed is the wide-spread ginned-up paranoia. But hey - it sells guns and more guns!
When do we get to have rocket launchers outline our property lines? Oh, wow! Personal armed drones! Cool!
(Sick-0's!!!)
Anyone paying attention to what has been going on in DC knows it's not paranoia. Patriot Act, NDAA, FEMA, and homeland security are all examples of gov't overreach and rights violations, most done in the name of safety. Why are certain agencies of the fed gov't stockpiling weapons and hollow point bullets?
iaosilver: Is there a point to your rambling?
over loaded prisons. 2mil locked up. every body wanted him dead hahaha. they will never find his killer. hahaha you gun dummies are getting old with the gun ban. it will never happen. you want my guns come get em i dare you. morons. people without gun are going to disarm the us? thats a joke. just keep watching honey boo boo.
No need to come get your firearms. Your own paranoia will do you in.
Spot on, NYMike!
*facepalm*
Give your "bob" a hug in the bunker.
Owning a firearm doesn't make you a gun "nut". You are most likely frustrated by the fact that there are over 300,000,000 privately owned firearms in the USA and climbing. Banning guns has never worked and never will given the number of firearms in circulation. So if I was a liberal I would STFU as you are only encouraging people to go out and buy more firearms. If you don't like the second amendment, then move to Australia or Great Britain.
Banning guns does work. It has worked in every country in the world that has strict gun control laws. It worked when we banned machine guns and automatic weapons. Anybody who claims it does not work is a liar.
Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mow would agree whole heartily.
Name one country that has eliminated murder rape and robbery. By eliminating firearms from the civilian population, you only change the methodology; the level of violent crime stays roughly the same. If you banned political speeches on television, you wouldn't stop lying in society, only limit it in that venue.
Hitler never banned guns. He encouraged gun ownership for all German citizens. He just changed the definition of "German citizen" to exclude the Jews and Gypsies. They were also forbidden from working in law, manufacturing, accounting, medicine, etc. He had nothing to fear from the majority Germans, because he was extremely popular. The parties working against the Nazis wanted to ban gun ownership.
Same with Stalin, only he forbade non-Communists from owning guns. Mow copied his example.
So really the lesson has nothing to do with universal gun bans against a whole population. It has to do with the disarming of groups you intend to commit atrocities against. In Hitler's case, it was the scapegoat. In Stalin and Mow's case, it was political enemies.
Floridaguy your just plain wrong. There is no other way to define what you say. Of course eliminating weapons will drastically lower violent crimes committed with weapons. BTW how often are weapons used in a rape? almost never. Get a clue.
markinbecker:
Banning guns does work.
In Boston we didn't ban guns . The federal prosecutions regarded every bullet over the legal limit worthy of serving long stretches of time in federal prisons .
The amazing thing is ... despite the illogic of removing the precipitate cause of deadly acts of violence , the incidence of fatal violence precipitate cause was a wonderful decrease in violent gun deaths . How ? How could that be ?
It is common sense that if you don't allow smoking where people pump gas that these awful "Mao Stalin Hitleresque" type of regulation will bring a fiery end to the American experiment of a representative republic with regulations determined by a majority , to a concentration camp demise .
So remember kids always light up , even if you don't smoke , when pumping gas . More importantly carry the most destructive weapons possible . With a little thought the most destructive weapon may turn out to be a utopian framework for interstate commerce .
The saintly folks who wish to impose an impractical , and demonstrably unworkable ideal , motivated by a prohibition to sensible efforts to serve and protect the people , and may cut into profits if enforced . Regulations proven to work all around the world wherever common people are not overlooked , or crushed , by the bullying of unregulated capitalisms engines of profit . The owners of an endless supply of money are uninterested in anything aside from making more money . The simple distortion provided through of truckloads of targeted cash , and whatever the right of free speech allows . Anyone may pull an imaginative claim from a wish list and then call it a "fact" , and feel no remorse when the efforts to arm every one kills more and more and more and ....
Martinbecker - I guess I need to be very specific for you; Banning a PARTICULAR type of weapon, e.g firearms, reduces the level of violence involved with that PARTICULAR weapon; it has little effect on the level of violence in that society - OBTW, weapons are often used to PREVENT rape, other than having access to a weapon, how would you suggest that a 110# woman defend herself against a 230# man? a whistle? train herself to be able to defecate on herself at will? join the Marines and become an expert in hand-to-hand combat? Spit out the Koolaid!
True. But owning 30 of them might. Especially if you feel you need those 30 to defend yourself against the current government.
And for the record, I am a gun owner and a veteran. And I support reasonable gun restrictions.
Why is this a bad idea? Why is taking any martial art self defense course a bad idea? Just wondering. Because odds are that woman will take a course on shooting if she gets a gun.
japan comes to mind. they have vending machines with used panties instead, which honestly sounds better than rednecks with guns.
markinbecker
"Floridaguy your just plain wrong. There is no other way to define what you say. Of course eliminating weapons will drastically lower violent crimes committed with weapons. BTW how often are weapons used in a rape? almost never. Get a clue."
You are the one who needs to get a clue-
rapists prefer knives,although many use guns-those who prefer strangulation of their victimes prefer a rope,or a belt,or the woman's pantyhose.
Eliminating weapons is not possible,nor is eliminating guns,all banning guns would do-as proven by the UK and Austrailia- is increase the rate of violent crime-there are many weapons besides guns.
You can't prevent every freaking crime people. I really don't think you could have stopped this one. This mans occuaption alone made him a target. Banning guns is not the answer. A determined man (or woman) even with a background check would manage to get what they needed to kill this man if they really wanted to. Reducing magazine capacity is a non-factor since it most probably only took one shot. This man would not have had the chance to fire back even if he'd had a gun in his hand.
FRP+4characters,
"Banning guns does work." FAIL!!
It is an absolute fact that the crime rate in the UK went up 40% after all the guns were banned in that country.
Go research the fact for yourself and then come crawling back to this forum to tell the truth.
David, they won't come back.
At their core they are cowards - too afraid of reality, too afraid to defend themselves, too afraid to face truth and do actual research.
They're yellow.
I realize it's probably just a spelling error, but even Mike Tyson knows it's spelled "MAO". You don't exactly lend yourself as a student of historical events by typing "MOW".
Pete, I know.
But, someone has to confront them. Liberals are like the kid who screams taunts at someone stronger while standing in a place they know the stronger person can't reach them.
Cowards!
Perhaps we should ban Correction Chiefs. After all, he was the one shot. What an easy target he made of himself. We must not be hesitant to blame the victim or the tool. It's the victim's fault and the tool's, you know. (/sarc)
If it had not been a gun, it would have been a knife, or bomb, or ballbat, or hammer--on and on. Violent people are to blame for violent crimes. Start blaming and punishing the criminal offenders; don't blame the honest citizens, or the victim, nor the tool.
Sincerest sympathies to the family of Mr. Clements. Who knows what criminal minds wander this world to harm someone who does his best to protect the rest of his?
May God help his family and the people of Colorado.
May anyone help raise the depraved morality this country has fallen to, the last 30 years. Nobody respects each other anymore. Just look at the verbal abuse people give each other on this newsvine.
This country was built on the disrespect of others. Stealing land, slavery, robber barons, union busting, stealing from workers, etc. The difference between now, and 30 years ago? People are more honest about being disrespectful.
If I get an unexpected knock at my door, I ALWAYS grab my protection and if I don't recognize the person I don't open the door, I talk to them through the door and usually send them away.
If answering the door with a weapon, you would have to take a second to identify who was at the door and decide wheter to take a shot. No way around that. The person at the door knows they are going to shoot as soon as the door opens - its a no brainer, a weapon would not have saved him.
Had he not answered the door as LuckyV suggests that probably would have saved him - even if he didn't have a gun.
So again a gun wouldn't have saved him.
Mary-355750
"If answering the door with a weapon, you would have to take a second to identify who was at the door and decide wheter to take a shot. No way around that. The person at the door knows they are going to shoot as soon as the door opens - its a no brainer, a weapon would not have saved him.
Had he not answered the door as LuckyV suggests that probably would have saved him - even if he didn't have a gun.
So again a gun wouldn't have saved him."
You do not know how the home was designed,there may have been a window he could have had a clear shot from,or he could have been wearing body armor-if he had just got home from work-and in that case-having a gun would have saved him.
Unless the "hitman" was a real pro, checking the window first would most likely have raised some suspicions. The sad fact is, in a position such as his, any moment of complacency can be your last.
I will bet, if they catch the killer, you will find that it was already illegal for him to possess any firearm. If it turns out to be an ex-con, you can also bet he has plenty of "resources" for obtaining a gun, none that involve gun shows, background checks, or mental health exams.
Gun-banners don't really want to do away with guns, they just want the military and the police to be the only ones with them - that is, by definition, a 'police state'. In South Africa where civilian possession of guns is highly restricted, police are routinely ambushed and their weapons stolen.
Your are indeed a total moron.
Ban handguns.
takenaka - I agree -handguns are a last resort for self defense; they should only be used to fight your way to your long gun. Handguns require too much practice to be able to use safely and accurately.
"Handguns require too much practice to be able to use safely and accurately" Sounds like a personal problem;-)
Seriously, you are correct. the Demonization of "Assault Weapons" is absolutely rediculous if one considers that they are used in less than 2% of all violent crime. The real prize for anti gun boobs is the complete ban of all handguns. They know that any bans on those scary black rifles is merely a stepping stone to banning handguns. The Congressional study on the prior ban from 1994-2004 revealed that it had no positive effect in preventing criminals from using guns to commit violent crimes. It's merely a smokescreen to go after the real prize.
@taken. Is that the only moronic, robotic phrase you can type? Damn.
Let me save the gun advocates the trouble of posting the snarky comment that I know is coming: Ban doorbells.
Now that is funny!
I agree with you, we need to ban doorbells. They are dangerous. I wear a IIIA ballistic vest with trauma plates when I answer the door. But that just for the mailman.LOL!
The people who continually and relentlessly harp on gun control aren't just concerned citizens, they have a plan. You aren't paranoid if they are really out to get you. Methinks they doth protest too much. Vote them out of the government. Run them out of your city and your state, if you care about the future.
Lot of strange things happening in Colorado these days. Wait.. the liberals took over the state.. maybe there is a connection.
Yeah navyvet, cause nothing bad ever happens in states run by conservatives.
Dude, until you mature enough to see that a political party has nothing to do with something like this and well, that both party's leadership are in bed with the same groups, you'll continue to post uneducated posts.
Hell, didn't your naval service come with some kind of tuition program - you should have used it.
@navyvet98 just demonstrates something about the lowered standards for acceptance into the US armed forces since the end of the Vietnam War, I guess.
Remember Kiddies.. Obama cancelled the tuition assistance to the troops as part of his SEQUESTER punishment. However he does still keep money flowing to the Pakistani Education Program.
Sorry liberals hate the obvious being pointed out by Colorado was once one of the greatest states ever. However for the last two decades it is also becoming one of the most liberal and also.. like Washington and Oregon it is becoming the mecca for the strange and unique.
So if my post really offended you just sit back, get stoned and don't worry. Someone else will work to pay your welfare.
Navyvet98,
So true. Obama just can't stand being forced to get responsible and make reasonable budget cuts in Fed govt. So what does he do, he purposely cuts military benefits while giving money to foreigners on the other side of the world where half of them hate us.
Then liberals can't understand why the majority of military personnel are conservative? What a joke!!!
Obama is not a dictator. He conspired with congress. Not just the Democrats, but the Republicans. You need to cast the finger of blame at anybody who voted yea, not just the president. But I wouldn't expect any kind of thought from a partisan with an axe to grind.
Seems to me the president could have vetoed. He also could have told the truth instead of going around the country to demagogue the hell out of it! Oh lord, millions of babysitters will be out of a job!!!
I worked for DOC in Colorado. My guess it was one of the sociopaths he fired.
It probably was an x-con, or someone on the outside executing a hit for someone in prison. But as you have said, it also could have been someone he fired (sociopathic or psychotic). My first husband worked for the DOC in California for 10 years, and man, I could tell you some pretty hair-raising stories. My first husband did not like his job at all. What he found was that within a prison is a very sick mini-society. That is to be expected among the prisoners. But the staff have formed their own mini-society, and it is sick as well. At least that was my first husband's experience.
No, it's much more likely that his job in the corrections field had nothing to do with this. Probably totally random.
I'm going with a hit, Lisa. Boxy vehicle sounds like one that is older, something that can be found in any apartment complex, senior complex, or backwater town, which are all abundant around Monument. just south of there, is Colorado Springs. You have gangs, an obscene amount of meth addicts, a fairly large homeless population that contains, which a large portion consists of ex-cons (mostly sex offenders) and unstable veterans. Living in the downtown area, we see it all, and based on the sheer number of nutjobs, I wouldn't be surprised that one could be hard pressed in choosing who would be better suited fir the job.
"The news of Clements' death came as Hickenlooper was expected on Wednesday to sign new gun bills limiting ammunition magazine capacity and expanding background checks on firearm purchases in the state, eight months after the Aurora movie theater shooting"
I love how the liberal media has to make sure we know about this unrelated thing as if to tie it to this story.
Are you being facetious?
If not, you must know very little of mountain states.
I predict that home video security systems will be the hot item purchased for DOC Personnel in Colorado.
Camera or No Camera it will not stop a killer from killing.Oh heck people are pushed on to the train tracks when the train is coming with the Camera rolling....
.