this will definitely make the anti-homosexual people's heads explode ! lol

No, just the prophecy being fulfilled... I see which side of history you were on also

The American Academy of Pediatrics' new policy, published online Thursday, cites research showing that the parents' sexual orientation has no effect on a child's development.

Not for nothing, but do they really have the statistical research to prove that? It may be completely true, but I highly doubt the test pool is big enough or has been studied long enough to prove it true.

Heartwarming to see the last thrashings of ignorance and blind judgement going down on the vines. The angst is palpable now that rational thought is winning the day. Fear not false prophets, the changes will happen more quickly now and then everyone will see the truth, that love is love and god does not make mistakes. Homosexuality exists in hundreds of species yet homophobia only in one. Sorry it is now you haters who are in the minority.

Homosexuality exists in hundreds of species yet homophobia only in one.

So do many socially unacceptable 'practices', why do fools keep making an argument comparing humans to animals? You do not help your cause by saying, "apes do it, so we should be allowed to too."

At least stick to legitimate reasons for acceptance, if you are capable.

You people think GOD will change his judgment against sin and perversity simply because you, or some psych-idiots say sin is not sin or state things differently from what GOD has stated?

This is no different than Heartland's foolish argument. Someone can choose to sin if they wish, not that it is technically considered a sin even by Moses standards, didn't god give everyone free-will according to the bible? If it is a sin, then does someone become an abomination when they steal?

Back up your statement with facts. Homosexuality in animals ? Do not precieve dominiance as homosexuality .

I'm bi, my husband is straight (but has no problem with the idea that his wife thinks girls are attractive.) Our oldest son (10) has just realized that girls aren't as icky as they were last year, and my youngest son (9) is autistic.

The school sends home progress reports that say both our boys are sweet, polite, helpful, and a joy to teach--even my autistic son. My sexual orientation has had no effect on either of my children's behavior, school performance, or their sexual orientation, and my husband and I have been married for 12 years and have no plans to change that ever.

So based on my own experiences, I conclude that having people who love you and care for your well-being is more important than what gender they prefer in bed.

Sorry honest debate, so then tell me what credible scientific studies you can cite that same sex parents are bad for child development? If you can even find one. Please remember it must be credible as in blind study conducted be a reputable source, not exodus or some other quack. Good luck! No matter how much it hurts, please stay scientific and not theological. I know it will hard, but give it a shot.

Here's a great start on homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Happy reading.

. Simply google homosexuality in nature and check out the full Wikipedia page that talks about it and cites sources.

Amanda...have no issue with either Civil Unions, or Same Sex Marriage. Life is too short for that hang-up. Just puzzled as to why you would have divulged to your sons that you indulge in both a straight (marriage) relationship, and a bi-sexual relationship. You must have a very tolerant husband. I suppose, by your comments, that you would have no issues with his initiation of a relationship with another female, or male, as well.

Good God how many pervert worship stories dose it take to brainwash moronic Americans? SO a freak doctor says perverts make dandy parents. Well if a freak says so I guess it's true other than the fact two perverts can not make a baby. Is that just a medical fact?

Heartland25-1932636 -

Yes changes will happen, it was predicted thousands of years ago, and no God does not make mistakes but man chooses to go against God’s established order. And then you follow up with the out right LIE of homosexuality in hundreds of species….WRONG… it only exist in one, for the rest they are animals that will have sex with anything that will remain still long enough, but then there are those like you who would lower humans to the lowest level possible.

@Heartland, Luckily for me I don't live for acceptance of the majority. I choose to live through my own moral and religious convictions!!

Sorry honest debate, so then tell me what credible scientific studies you can cite that same sex parents are bad for child development?

Sorry Heartland, so then tell me what credible source you have that states that I EVER said that. Please, I am dying to see where you pull this from. Don't get upset because your attempt at a debating point was pethetic at best, keep striving to be more like the animal kingdom, maybe you can get a law passed to kill infants and eat your young.

I choose to live through my own moral and religious convictions!!

And lucky for us, we do not live in a land where your moral and religious convictions mean a damn thing in our legal system.

Don't like gay marriage? Don't get "gay" married. Don't like "gay child supervision"? Don't get a gay baby sitter.

But keep your biases out of our laws, because you have ZERO legal justifications for them.

Welcome to the beginning of Aldous Huxley’s 1932 “Brave New World.”

A world where Natural reproduction has been replaced by Artificial means of reproduction. After all gay couples cannot reproduce on their own. So they have to seek others means of having children which will lead to even more gay’s and the help of medical professionals and school’s turn the children into mindless emotionless clones.

Mike,

Yet you don't complain about infertile couples? After all, a gay man's sperm and a gay woman's eggs still work. They CAN procreate. Infertile people cannot.

Why don't you go bitch about that instead? It'd be much more on point with your position.

and school’s turn the children into mindless emotionless clones.

Turn into? As if they aren't now?

honestdebate

Sorry Heartland, so then tell me what credible source you have that states that I EVER said that. Please, I am dying to see where you pull this from. Don't get upset because your attempt at a debating point was pethetic at best, keep striving to be more like the animal kingdom, maybe you can get a law passed to kill infants and eat your young.

Yeah, because that's exactly what gay marriage is going to lead to. Once it's legal, they're going to suggest that we pass laws to kill infants and eat their young. And doctors are already behind it.

The thought process behind that defies logic. That slope is reaaaaaally slippery.

It would be good if some statistics were given on the circumstances surrounding the 2 million children and the gay parents that are attempting to raise them in these abnormal life styles.

This IS NOT God's will for these children to be raised under these circumstances and to say or imply anything to the contrary is absurd

One can only imagine the embarrassment these children will be subjected to in school as well as their entire life.

MikeNRGV

A world where Natural reproduction has been replaced by Artificial means of reproduction. After all gay couples cannot reproduce on their own. So they have to seek others means of having children which will lead to even more gay’s and the help of medical professionals and school’s turn the children into mindless emotionless clones.

So do we blame straight parents for having gay children? Should we now start punishing children and leave them as wards of the state when a family wants to adopt them and can provide a home for them that will be less of a draw on the governments resources and give them a stronger home environment?

Yeah, because that's exactly what gay marriage is going to lead to. Once it's legal, they're going to suggest that we pass laws to kill infants and eat their young. And doctors are already behind it.

Don't blame me, that is what heartland is arguing for.

This IS NOT God's will for these children to be raised under these circumstances and to say or imply anything to the contrary is absurd

Is it god's will for a shaking crack-baby to be born to a strung out mother who could care less for the kid and has no idea which of the 15 dealers the dad could be?

I don't think god is playing the same game youas you.

kkwilson

It would be good if some statistics were given on the circumstances surrounding the 2 million children and the gay parents that are attempting to raise them in these abnormal life styles.

This IS NOT God's will for these children to be raised under these circumstances and to say or imply anything to the contrary is absurd

Well, whew. Good thing we're not a theocracy. I'm willing to bet if you gave a child in an orphanage or state run facility the option of gay parents or no parents, I am pretty sure I know which one they'd take.

One can only imagine the embarrassment these children will be subjected to in school as well as their entire life.

Kids being embarrassed, what lunacy is this? Kids are going to be embarrassed and bullied for everything. The clothes they wear, their appearance and everything else. Being embarrassed and being at school is a part of growing up and the social interactions we form in society.

honestdebate

Don't blame me, that is what heartland is arguing for.

Heartland made no such suggestion that we should kill our young or eat them. That was you going down the slippery slope and trying to throw out "unintended consequences" because they suggested that many species exhibit homosexuality but only one exhibits homophobia.

Sarah,

you said.. But keep your biases out of our laws, because you have ZERO legal justifications for them.

The last time I checked there were still Federal laws prohibiting same sex. So there's my zero justifications. No worries though you and your partner are on the pathway to legal status as the rest of America declines with your lifestyle!

Hey Sarah, perversion is perversion, no matter what you call it, no matter what names you calls those against this wicked sin, and no matter who endorses it. Let's talk about HIV and gay-bowel disease, or is that off limits because only the "good" side of gay can be discussed? Homosexuality is an abomination, and always will be.

Heartland made no such suggestion that we should kill our young or eat them. That was you going down the slippery slope and trying to throw out "unintended consequences" because they suggested that many species exhibit homosexuality but only one exhibits homophobia.

Still making things up are we? I wasn't the one that said there are gay animals so people being gay should be accepted too, that was heart. I just stated the obvious hole in that ridiculous argument, which clearly is way over your head.

Moderate in Madison said:

Amanda...have no issue with either Civil Unions, or Same Sex Marriage. Life is too short for that hang-up.

Thank you! Just puzzled as to why you would have divulged to your sons that you indulge in both a straight (marriage) relationship, and a bi-sexual relationship.

My sons don't know. The just know that Mom's open-minded d tolerant and brings home Sports Illustrated swimsuit model calendars to hang on the wall. Kids are remarkably self-absorbed, and beyond their world of school, homework, and whether they're going to be grounded for breaking a window, they really aren't all that interested. They do notice things-- but at this age the doings of adults around them aren't as significant as whether we're going to order pizza for dinner.

You must have a very tolerant husband.

I do, ad I thank the Goddess every day. However, I really don't know of many men who will turn away from the thought of two girls making out. It's bee a theme in a lot of Hollywood movies; Neve Campbell and Denise Richards in 'Wild Things' and more recently, Natalie Portman and Mila Kunis in 'Black Swan'.

I suppose, by your comments, that you would have no issues with his initiation of a relationship with another female, or male, as well.

Rather early on in our marriage, yes, we had a threesome with a couple of girlfriends of mine. This was before the boys came along. After the kids, well..let's say that I have no idea how the Duggars do it because kids are the best birth control ever invented. Whenever we get intimate here comes one of the boys complaining his brother just yelled at him. And we're getting on in years, the drive just isn't there, and with my hubby now disabled physical activity is now a bit more of a challenge. Physical intimacy's just not that big a component of our relationship anymore, and it's been replaced with warmth, humor, making each other laugh, shared interests, and intelligent conversation--and focus on our boys; with one autistic child, days can be difficult to get through sometimes.

Which is why I said that to raise a child, having people who love you and care about your well-being is more important than what gender they prefer in bed.

Timothy,

Nobody gives a @!$%# about what you think a "sin" is. But sure, let's discuss AIDS...

Getting it Straight: HIV as a Gay Disease Is a Myth That Refuses to Die

By David Salyer
From AIDS Survival Project

March 1999

"HIV is a gay disease."

This is a myth that refuses to die. Misinformation, fear, ignorance and media sensationalism continue to fuel this myth in America. For every one person like me trying to tell the truth about HIV transmission, there seems to be a dozen shrieking, simpleminded, natural-born dullards with a staggering inability to grasp reality.

HIV is not a gay disease. Nope. All of us are at risk in getting HIV from unsafe sex or other modes of blood to blood contact, like sharing needles. Television talk shows and all those fundamentalist/conservative/family values groups are chock full of flaky, clueless lightweights who made up their minds twenty years ago that HIV is a product of the so-called "gay lifestyle" and it's God's wrath on homosexuals. These poor creatures are so invested in this myth that they are incapable of hearing the truth. They continue to spew their self-righteous, delusional feculence to the detriment of all humanity. They are, in fact, shameless, insidious prevaricators driven solely by their irrational loathing and fear of homosexuality.

The truth is that 16,000 people worldwide are infected with HIV every single day (World Health Organization). They are not all gay. In the United States, HIV infection rates have held steady at 40,000 per year, but recent preliminary data suggests those rates are on the rise. They are not all gay. African-American and Hispanic women together represent less than one-fourth of all U.S. women, but account for more than three-fourths (76%) of AIDS cases among women in this country (CDC Update, 6/98). Women now account for 43% of all HIV infected people over the age of 15 (New York Times, 11/98). In just over a decade, the proportion of all AIDS cases reported among adult and adolescent women tripled, from 7% in 1985 to 22% in 1997 (CDC Update, 6/98).

Further, more than 30 million people around the world are living with HIV or AIDS, and by the year 2000 that figure will reach 40 million (UNAIDS/World Health Organization, 12/97). They are not all gay. AIDS now kills more people worldwide than any other infection, including malaria and tuberculosis.

Sure, whites and people with higher incomes and insurance in the United States are gaining greater access to HIV therapies and there is a drop in AIDS-related deaths. But African-American, Hispanic and young white women are being exposed to HIV through heterosexual sex with male partners who use intravenous drugs. As a result, HIV rates are climbing disproportionately among these populations in America, and these women often do not have access to effective medical care. In Africa, Asia and India, HIV has always been and remains and overwhelmingly heterosexual disease. (Note to the purveyors of the "AIDS Is God's Wrath on Homosexuals" theory: Your deity appears to be somewhat inept at determining sexual orientation; it occurs to me that your God bears a more striking resemblance to bumbling Aunt Clara on those Bewitched reruns.)

Women contract HIV. Women get AIDS. So let's talk about what's going on. The female genital tract (vagina) is normally populated by a flora, helpful bacteria like those "active cultures" listed on yogurt containers. This flora (lactobacilli) produces hydrogen peroxide to kill invading organisms and lower the pH level in the vagina, making it less hospitable for foreign organisms. A loss of lactobacillli lowers the natural protective barriers and leads to an increased risk of infection with sexually transmitted diseases. Recent studies conducted by the American Society of Microbiology confirm this. In a study of 144 female sex-workers in Thailand, those with loss of vaginal flora were twice as likely as those with a normal balance of vaginal organisms to contract HIV. A study of 657 female sex-workers in Kenya showed that the risk of contracting gonorrhea rose by 78% in women with low levels of lactobacilli.

Maintaining a natural balance of flora/lactobacilli is beneficial to all women; it is a natural defense against STDs. However, it's difficult for a variety of reasons. For instance, taking a course of antibiotics to combat an infection somewhere else in the body often wipes out vaginal flora, often leading to a yeast infection (an inflammation that makes women more susceptible to STDs). If a woman must take antibiotics, she should also begin taking an acidophilus supplement to replace lactobacilli (even eating plain yogurt several times a day is helpful).

Another practice that has a strong negative impact on vaginal flora is douching. Numerous studies concluded douching destroys helpful vaginal flora. In fact, Dr. Sharon Hillier of the University of Pittsburgh, a founder of vaginal lactobacilli research, says, "Douching has no known medical benefit, but there is a $100 million industry out there selling perfumed water to women, and they fall for the advertising." Dawn Averitt, founder of WISE (Women's Information and Service Exchange) believes that women living with HIV should heed Dr. Hillier's advice and avoid douching.

Some other things to remember: spermicides won't kill HIV; they're designed to kill sperm. And then there's nonoxynol-9, the spermicide that does kill HIV in test tubes. Allow me to point out that vaginas are not test tubes. There is no evidence that nonoxynol-9 protects against HIV transmission outside the controlled, laboratory test tube model. In fact, several studies suggest it can actually irritate the delicate skin of genitals, thus promoting HIV infection. Nor does nonoxynol-9 seem to decrease your chances of getting chlamydia or gonorrhea. In fact, researchers see more vaginal irritation and genital lesions in women who use nonoxynol-9. I say avoid the stuff. Have your partner wear a latex condom and use a water-based lubricant that doesn't contain nonoxynol-9.

Speaking of condoms, there is an alternative for women. It's called Reality, a female condom. I don't have to tell you how many guys balk at wearing a condom, so this gives women a real choice. The Reality condom is inserted into the vagina. It comes with an explicit set of instructions and an 800 number for questions. It's a little funky looking, but well worth a try.

Finally, a disturbing survey emerged from last summer's 12th World AIDS Conference. A University of Illinois study indicated that lesbians aren't necessarily engaging in risk reduction activities. Of 82 lesbians who reported vaginal sex within a six month period, only four used a barrier. Of 18 who had vaginal sex with a man in that interval, only one-third used a condom. I can almost hear you saying, "Oh, lesbians don't get HIV or STDs." Another myth. Lesbians who share dildos or vibrators risk infection. Lesbians who engage in unprotected sex with men risk infection. Straight, bisexual or lesbian, the risk is real.

And...

The Top Ten Myths About HIV/AIDS

Beginning to understand the challenges of HIV/AIDS starts by dealing with some of the common myths people tend to believe about the disease. Following are some of the myths and the actual facts about the disease.1. HIV/AIDS is mostly a disease of homosexual men.Primarily spread by heterosexual sex, HIV/AIDS now infects as many women as men worldwide. Although the disease was first recognized in the United States among gay men, it is also significantly spread among IV drug users. Internationally, it is more often a disease of heterosexuals.2. HIV/AIDS is mostly an African problem.Found in every country in the world, HIV infections are growing most rapidly in countries outside of Africa, including India and Russia. Many African countries have been decimated by HIV/AIDS, but the impact is also significant in Asia, Eastern Europe, and India.3. HIV/AIDS spreads mostly because of poor moral choices.Women are often infected by their husbands. Children most often contract HIV by being born to HIV+ mothers. It isn’t helpful or meaningful to determine who is at fault or who is an innocent victim.4. Plenty of money is being spent on fighting HIV/AIDS.While a great deal of money is being spent by governments, private organizations, and individuals to fight HIV/AIDS, much more is needed.5. HIV/AIDS is no longer a problem in developed countries like Canada,United States e.t.c.Because medications (Antiretrovirals or ARVs) are widely available in the developed countries, the death rate has decreased. But the number of people living with HIV/AIDS has not decreased and the rate of new infections is not declining.6. ARVs are widely available.While antiretrovirals are becoming more available, they are still difficult to find in many rural areas and in some countries. Both drugs and systems to distribute them are needed in many poor countries.7. A cure exists for HIV/AIDS.While there are treatments to prolong life, there is no cure. Many scientists are working on a cure but few believe there will ever be one way to effectively cure someone because the virus constantly changes.8. There is no hope for those with HIV/AIDS.Great progress is being made in treatments and the rate of infant infection in some countries is dropping rapidly. There is also a dropping rate of new infections in many countries with strong prevention programs.9. If I’m not HIV+, the disease doesn’t affect me.The high rate of HIV/AIDS infections is causing instability in many countries and reversing the progress made in development. It is also causing a worldwide tuberculosis pandemic. Every community is affected. A pandemic affects everyone even if not immediately recognized.10. There’s nothing I can do.Everyone can do something. First, become educated. Then help teach others in your church, school, and community. Begin to care and pray about how you and your church, school and community can become involved. Begin to share your knowledge with your peers to help break HIV stigma and discrimination that exists in most communities today and to encourage others to be a part of this fight to end stigma of those affected or infected with HIV/AIDS.

honestdebate

Still making things up are we? I wasn't the one that said there are gay animals so people being gay should be accepted too, that was heart. I just stated the obvious hole in that ridiculous argument, which clearly is way over your head.

What you did was a slippery slope. Show me where anyone other than you suggested that killing infants or eating them came up other than your posting.

You've moved from slippery slope to ad hominem. How many more logical fallacies would you like to add to your statement to support your position?

Mike,

The last time I checked there were still Federal laws prohibiting same sex.

Which you can NOT make a case for falling under the confines of the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land. After all, segregation used to be "law" too. That doesn't make it Constitutional, which is what it has to be in order to be upheld.

So THERE is your ZERO justification.

Hey Tim, love is love, and people are people, no matter what you call them. Hate is hate, and prejudice is prejudice, not matter who endorses it.

Words are words, definitions are definitions, and they can and do change over time because language is made by man. Religion, and religious text, likewise are made by man.

Please stop confusing observable fact with make-believe.

@sarah3043284.... You rock, just saying...

What you did was a slippery slope. Show me where anyone other than you suggested that killing infants or eating them came up other than your posting.

Obviously you don't understand the concept of a slippery slope.

@sarah3043284.... You rock, just saying...

Yes if only everyone would keep a folder of cut and paste material, that none reads, to load up forums with, the world would be such a better place.

"My child was brought up perfectly. Living in the same house as her natural male father and natural female mother."

I am not sure if raising your child to be bigoted against those who are different than them is raising them perfectly.

Honest,

Why you gotta hate? Sorry you can't keep up and you're losing this fight on EVERY level, but that's not my fault. It's because you don't have enough "cut and paste" material, or what everyone else calls KNOWLEDGE.

Yes if only everyone would keep a folder of cut and paste material, that none reads, to load up forums with, the world would be such a better place.

Yup, it probably would, because then you would know a thing or two besides your personal bigoted opinions. You know, things like FACTS.

Manda,

Thanks!

"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law" ( Romans 13:8-10 )

honestdebate

Obviously you don't understand the concept of a slippery slope.

Okay, then let's do an exercise.

Logically connect homosexuality to killing infants and eating babies.

Here's your quote:

Sorry Heartland, so then tell me what credible source you have that states that I EVER said that. Please, I am dying to see where you pull this from. Don't get upset because your attempt at a debating point was pethetic at best, keep striving to be more like the animal kingdom, maybe you can get a law passed to kill infants and eat your young.

Remember, your quote was in response to many animals exhibiting homosexuality and how only 1 exhibits homophobia.

Some good posts there HonestD. You make many rational arguments.

Sure, if you want your child to grow up completely confused, suffer from an identity crisis and become the target of ridicule, teasing and bullying then go ahead and raise them in a home with homosexuals.

become the target of ridicule, teasing and bullying then go ahead and raise them in a home with homosexuals.

OR, we could go ahead and teach our children not to be ridiculing, bullying bigots and tell them to mind their own business when it comes to things that have ZERO negative impact in their lives.

And some scientific, credible sources that they'll have identity crises?

Libs Are Idiots said:

You people think GOD will change his judgment against sin and perversity simply because you, or some psych-idiots say sin is not sin or state things differently from what GOD has stated?

GOD laughs at you people, and judgment comes on those that ignore what GOD has stated about the gross sin of sexual immorality and homosexuality.

The Bible says 'Thou shalt not lie with a man as with a woman, it is a detestable thing."

Nowhere in the Bible does God say anything about women lying with women. So lesbians must be okay...therefore God has a double standard.

The copy of the Bible I have was published in 1961. It say 'detestable'. Somewhere in the last 50 or so years it changed to the much stronger 'abominable'. So much for the Unchanging Word Of God.

If we could read the 8000 original scrolls of Christian teachings before they were rewritten by the Nicene Council of 329, what else would we find has changed? Oh, that's right, we're never going to see those scrolls because the Vatican's classified them as the 'Forbidden Books'. Today's Bible has between 66 and 77 books.

Tell me, why is so much of God's word forbidden you?

Because as we all know, children listen to everything their parents tell them and never succumb to peer pressure, right, Sarah? Oh, and they're great at minding their own business too.

And you know what you can do with your "scientific, credible sources." Some things just are and they don't require substantiation by junk science perpetrated by liberals. For instance, there are no "scientific, credible sources" that can properly explain why liberals loathe themselves, hate their country, love everything NOT American, and would sell their own country down the river if it meant one more personal right, freedom or entitlement, yet we all know it's a fact so go figure.

And you know what you can do with your "scientific, credible sources." Some things just are and they don't require substantiation by junk science perpetrated by liberals. For instance, there are no "scientific, credible sources" that can properly explain why liberals loathe themselves, hate their country, love everything NOT American, and would sell their own country down the river if it meant one more personal right, freedom or entitlement, yet we all know it's a fact so go figure.

So you can't. I'm shocked! Shocked, I tell you!

Carryingconcealed

Sure, if you want your child to grow up completely confused, suffer from an identity crisis and become the target of ridicule, teasing and bullying then go ahead and raise them in a home with homosexuals.

You do realize that children from straight couples grow up confused about their sexuality and gender as well right? Where do you think kids who later as adults undergo reassigned gender surgies come from? What about those parents who have a child born with male and female sexual organs and the parents choose to make the child a female to later find out that the child is displaying a male's personality?

Kids, no matter if their parents are gay, straight, bisexual, will always go through questions about themselves and try to identify who they are. The parents job is to let kids get comfortable with themselves and support them in their choice. In some cases it's just a phase a child goes through to see if that is what they like or not. Kids have enough worries about what is going on in their world. And you should be aware that bullying and ridicule happens to ALL children. I thought all these articles about teens committing suicide because of bullying would have clued you in on that. It's the parent's job to teach children that bullying and teasing is not acceptable.

Carryingconcealed, what does a boy who is raised by two women learn? What does a girl being raised by two men learn? Once again, your answer to everything is to have people be "more like you" and that will cure all ails. Your blind rant suggests that you are doing plenty of judging. Way to have a double standard of your own beliefs, although I'm not surprised in the least.

Yes if only everyone would keep a folder of cut and paste material, that none reads, to load up forums with, the world would be such a better place.

perhaps if ignorant fools would take some time to read any factual material at all than the world would be a better place, instead we are plagued by bigots such as yourself.

Time for a name change, you are neither honest nor do you have any clue what debate is, here is a hint; acting like a 5 year old plugging their ears and screaming nonsense does not make an honest debate.

Truett Collins says:

Yes changes will happen, it was predicted thousands of years ago, and no God does not make mistakes but man chooses to go against God’s established order.

Man creates God in his own image. God didn't write a single word of the Bible, Man did. See my post above on the Nicene Council.

And then you follow up with the out right LIE of homosexuality in hundreds of species….WRONG… it only exist in one, for the rest they are animals that will have sex with anything that will remain still long enough, but then there are those like you who would lower humans to the lowest level possible.

In the desert of the Southwest there is a species of lizard called the whiptail lizard. Centuries ago when the Southwest was a fertile grassland, there were both male and female of the species. Then climate changed and the grassland became a desert, and because of the higher temperatures the eggs started hatching out all females. (Natural climate change, not man-made, as some of the Native American in this region migrated south due to the climate change and reestablished themselves half a century later as the Aztec and Inca.)

Today, they are a species consisting entirely of females, and they manage to survive and thrive as a species.

So if God doesn't make mistakes, then homosexuality is therefore part of His plan and will-- written right there in the animals He created, not in a book that Man wrote.

Whats normal for children? Adam and Eve.

Not Adam and Steve...just ridiculous, I dont care how you look at it.

Trying to force unNATURAL CRAP on us is pure bullsh*t, two wrongs no matter how much you try to shove it down our throats; DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT!

If you call us ignorant for saying the TRUTH, then let it be, godammit

Doc,

AGAIN, nobody cares if you think it's right. Find us a reason it should be illegal.

I really don't care what you think is right or wrong. You have no right to judge other people's lifestyles.

If you don't want a gay marriage don't have it. You also have not right to tell me what is normal and/or natural.

I have yet to see someone being forced to be gay or straight. I really don't care about people's sexual orientation it is none of my business.

So if God doesn't make mistakes, then homosexuality is therefore part of His plan and will-- written right there in the animals He created, not in a book that Man wrote.

What I find humorous behind this is that because homosexuality has been around since man first walked (neanderthals and other subspecies of human) and most definitely since the civilization of man (around 2 million BC, if not earlier), god hasn't done anything to wipe them off the face of the planet. All these people asking god to clean the earth of these "sinful" and "devil-lead" people has not done a single thing for millions of years. That is the problem that I have with people who claim god will come to clear house. If god is to do this, why has this not happened in the millions of years since man first appeared?

People claim to know what god has planned and what god wants because of a text that is known to have several different versions of itself floating around in so many languages. A text, mind you, that has been written and copied over and over that will distort any historical teaching if there were any there in the first place. It's like the telephone game. You tell one person something and watch that phrase deteriorate as it is passed around. Same thing with text. Pass it around long enough and the words become smeared and the paper deteriorates. To keep the teaching of the text alive, they copy it. What happens when a passage is so deteriorated that only bits and pieces can be read? People improvise and string together the teaching the best they could by their interpretation.

Here is an open question to people who may not approve of the homosexual lifestyle. Are others allowed to disagree with your views?

Gay marriage foes would be slightly more credible if their version of marriage didn't lead to a 50% divorce rate.

State of Awareness said:

People claim to know what god has planned and what god wants because of a text that is known to have several different versions of itself floating around in so many languages. A text, mind you, that has been written and copied over and over that will distort any historical teaching if there were any there in the first place.

A novice on his first day at a new monastery is given an old book and told to create a new handwritten copy.

The head monk tells him it's the code of behavior for the monks at this monastery, and whenever the old one wears out, a novice is given the task of writing a new one.

The novice asks the head monk if this is the same as the original.

The head monk says 'Of course' but goes off thinking.

Later that day, the novice goes looking for the head monk, finds him sitting on the floor of the library crying with a dusty old book open in front of him. The novice asks the had monk if anything is wrong.

The head monk points to the book in front of him."The word is 'celebrate'! Not 'celibate'!"

Now, jokes aside--the Gutenburg Bible is the first book ever printed by man. It's also called the '42 Line Bible'. If I were to translate the original Gutenburg Bible straight from it's original Latin, I doubt I would find half the stuff in it as there is in a Bible today.

Simply legalizing it doesn't make it right- that which is legalized can become unlegalized as well.

Butterfly Mage

It's not like the Christian Reich believes in science. They think hurricanes are caused by gays, that earthquakes are caused by Voodoo, and 911 was caused by witchcraft.

Well obviously it takes a crazy to know a crazy then since your beliefs are obviously no less insane than the people you bitch about.

Amanda-2017567 - First scripture pre-dates the Nicene Council.

Second just how many centuries does a whiptail lizard live......?

You people think GOD will change his judgment against sin and perversity simply because you, or some psych-idiots say sin is not sin or state things differently from what GOD has stated?

Well ... maybe YOUR god won't. But that's OK. We live in a secular country with freedom of religion. That means that YOU are free to listen to what your god says (although I wonder if you have actually HEARD her or you're taking other people's word for it). We DON'T have to listen to what your god says. It's really pretty simple.

Gotta love people that think they can speak for God, who by the way created gay people as well.

They are in for a big surprise later. That's okay, forgiveness is everything.

ProFreedom-5130956

Simply legalizing it doesn't make it right- that which is legalized can become unlegalized as well.

Same goes for those who oppose giving people the same rights. You can oppose it but that doesn't make it right.

Make a statement or pass some law that says gravity does not exist, and see how much of an affect it has. LOL! You godless, immoral, fools make me laugh.

Gravity can be proven, and there are credible theories about WHY we have gravity. None of that can be said about God. She's a figment of your imagination.

i say all the people become gay and then there will be no more children and the pediatricians will be out of business. after all being gay is "natural" being born that way and all. maybe we will leave it up to science to make our babies. all sounds ok to me. prefectly natural. Sarah, is that your picture ? very cute either way. yes i am male.

i say all the people become gay and then there will be no more children

You obviously haven't studied much biology. Just because you don't LIKE to "mate" with the opposite sex doesn't mean you CAN'T. And then there are the "artificial" methods.

all. maybe we will leave it up to science to make our babies.

Science is making our babies all the time now. Dude (or dudette) ... please enter the 20th Century (I think the 21st is too big a leap for you).

DoWhatsRIght - USA

i say all the people become gay and then there will be no more children and the pediatricians will be out of business. after all being gay is "natural" being born that way and all. maybe we will leave it up to science to make our babies. all sounds ok to me. prefectly natural. Sarah, is that your picture ? very cute either way. yes i am male.

What you don't seem to understand is that people will procreate if mankind is in danger of becoming non-existant regardless of sexual orientation. They will bite the bullet and procreate so the species survives. You are also missing the concept that straight parents have a 50/50 shot of having a gay or straight child. If a gay couple adopt a child or do artificial insemination, that child still has a 50/50 shot of being gay or straight as well.

Truett Collins said:

First scripture pre-dates the Nicene Council.

Yes, it does, but since the Church won't let us look at that original scripture, how do we KNOW that what the Bible says now is what that original scripture says?

Second just how many centuries does a whiptail lizard live......?

They have relatively short life spans in comparison to, say, a Galapogos tortoise. 10 to 15 years max, I think is what I read. The girls do it with other girls (since there are only girls now) and they survive and thrive as a species. I think I remember reading that a couple of herpetologists decided to try reintroducing males by subjecting newly laid eggs to lower temps in an attempt to hatch out males-- but haven't been successful, the eggs either didn't hatch or they still came out female even with the lower temps. Unhatched eggs had dead female lizards inside.

The original scrolls are available for anyone who wishes to take the time for study.....

Then they are not totally female since a female can't fertilize a female.... It only goes to prove that God provides.

Your as ignorant about life and the bible as you are about avatars and screen names!

You've obviously never read the Bible.

funny- wonder what Bible I have been reading! :-) Butterfly, you are so misguided. Maybe read the bible sometime - word for word, front to back then get back to us :-)

How about if we offer nature itself.

Can you and your partner reproduce? My partner and I can because we are the kind of couple that nature intended. Male and female.

My child was brought up perfectly. Living in the same house as her natural male father and natural female mother.

FACT.

I have read the bible and while I think jesus is a wonderful role model. All of the things Butterfly mentioned are in the bible.

PatMoe

How about if we offer nature itself.

ok. lets do that, let's go with your logic :)

Can you and your partner reproduce? My partner and I can because we are the kind of couple that nature intended. Male and female.

ahhh ! look at that ! but what about those male and female couples where one or both are infertile ?? is that what nature intended for them ? they are a male and female couple but cannot reproduce ! they would need invitro.. oh wait.. if they use invitro to aide them in reproducing or a third party (like a segregate mother), then they would be the equivalent to a homosexual couple in terms of reproducing, huh ?

are you stating we should limit children ONLY to male and female couples who are capable of reproducing ? boy are you limiting the pool on that one !

because as we all have seen before - just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD

so now, please tell me how you came up with this wonderful conclusion of yours again ?

My child was brought up perfectly. Living in the same house as her natural male father and natural female mother.

ahhh ! because we all know that children who live in the same house with their natural male father and natural female mother are perfect ! they never do drugs or drink or commit crimes, they most certainly go on to college and get a great paying career ! every single time ! right ?? of course, by your "logic", all the children of single parent homes would be less than perfect too... even if that single parent was heterosexual.. and then we have orphans and adopted children.. they would definitely not be perfect by your "logic" as well, huh ?

FACT.

yea, so far you have presented none :) try again ?

So in pat's rational mind, infertile couples are not good places to raise children since they cannot have their own children? Nature has denied them so they must not be good fit? Good thing abortion is still legal. We can't have those unholy, unnatural people raising unwanted children. They won't be perfect in Pat's mind. WOW! So sad.

Other research has shown over the years, that when children are growing up, they have traits attributed to the male side, and the female side. The parents strengthen their offspring to become stronger on the side they need. If a boy, for example, were to have only two mothers, in his later years where would he be, as compared to having a mother and a father? Or if he had two fathers? What a mess!

Butterfly, you are one sick puppy, if you think that's all the Bible offers to its readers and believers. It's amazing, how pro - homosexual people only spin the negative side of anti - homosexuals. No, I won't call them "gay" - that was a good word, until you took it without asking. Same with the rainbow.

Reality, it is the bible which also contains such lovely commands from god, such as....

"And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. And the LORD said unto Moses, 'Take all the heads of the people and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.'" (Numbers 25:3-4)

"And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense." (Numbers 16:32-35)

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." (Exodus 12:29-30)

"So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men." (I Chronicles 21:14)

"And there came out against them Zerah the Ethiopian with an host of a thousand thousand, and three hundred chariots..." (II Chronicles 14:9)

So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled. (II Chronicles 14:12)

"And he smote the men of Bethshemesh, because they had looked into the ark of the LORD, even he smote of the people fifty thousand and threescore and ten men: and the people lamented, because the LORD had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." (I Samuel 6:19)

"And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God..." (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;" (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

"Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people." (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

"Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword." (Deuteronomy 13:15)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

Have you read every word of your own bible?

When 2 women can create a baby by themselves or 2 men can create one then i will support gays! until then No Way!

Bug,

A gay woman can have a baby and a gay man can impregnate a woman. Guess you support gay people.

So infertile straight couples should also be barred from marriage?

Who cares if you support gays or not? No one cares about your opinion, that's why it is YOUR opinion. Remember they are like a**holes, everyone has one, and everyone but your own stinks!

Yes God has passed judgments many times and will again. The judgements you mention are a result of sin.

If you have read the Bible complete and really learned from it you also know that the old covenant with man was replaced by the new covenant that includes Jesus who paid for our sins that we may be forgiven by God. All we have to do is accept the wonderful gift. Repent, remember Jesus saves us from sin not in sin.

Tether,

We don't care about YOUR interpretation of Jesus, God or the Bible. They're completely irrelevant. You go repent whatever you need to repent and keep that @!$%# out of our laws.

Interpretation of Jesus? The book is quite clear and easy to understand once you accept who he is. Once you accept Jesus as lord and savior the Holy Spirit will help you understand.

Sarah if you are interested in truth then I suggest you do the research. Our nation and it's laws were based on God and the Bible.

John Adams stated "The general principles upon which the [Founding] Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity..."

John Quincy Adams - "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians"

1782 Congress "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

Patrick Henry: "This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed"

There are plenty more.

"I suggest you do the research. Our nation and it's laws were based on God and the Bible."

• So why didn't the founding fathers fail to mention God, Christianity of the Bible in the constitution???

They only instituted it on our money, on the deceleration of independence, in our judicial system, congress, swearing in ceromonies, oath of offices, pledge of allegiance, the star spangled banner and on and on.. But no worries Charlieeee u bbit my finger, You and ur libratards will do your biblical duties by fulfilling the scripture in the book of revelations!

Tether,

I'm soooo glad you took it there, because now I can show the world just how wrong you are.

First, quotes from the founding fathers are NOT governing documents or laws, ergo they have no standing over how we run our country.

But you were right, there are PLENTY more...

Thomas Paine:

"What is it the Bible teaches us? -- rapine, cruelty, and murder. What is it the Testament teaches us? -- to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

"It is the fable of Jesus Christ, as told in the New Testament, and the wild and visionary doctrine raised thereon, against which I contend. The story, taking it as it is told, is blasphemously obscene."
~
Thomas Jefferson, of many:

"There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."
~
James Madison:

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
~
There is a wealth of anti-religious quotes by many of our founding fathers. Many of the FFs were Christian, yes, but some of the biggest names were deists and anti-religious, anti-Christian. They argued about religion at the time when founding the country. Funny how so few know that and how so many insist it was founded as a "Christian Nation!"

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." (Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11: Written during the Administration of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams.)

There are also PLENTY of SCOTUS cases, which actually ARE law and govern us...

Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 (1879)

Court finds that the federal antibigamy statute does not violate the First Amendment's guarantee of the free exercise of religion.

Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947)

Court finds that a New Jersey law which included students of Catholic schools in reimbursements to parents who sent their children to school on buses operated by the public transportation system does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)

Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.

Burstyn v. Wilson, 72 S. Ct. 777 (1952)

Government may not censor a motion picture because it is offensive to religious beliefs.

Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961)

Court holds that the state of Maryland cannot require applicants for public office to swear that they believed in the existence of God. The court unanimously rules that a religious test violates the Establishment Clause.

Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)

Any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.

Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)

Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.

Epperson v. Arkansas, 89 S. Ct. 266 (1968)

State statue banning teaching of evolution is unconstitutional. A state cannot alter any element in a course of study in order to promote a religious point of view. A state's attempt to hide behind a nonreligious motivation will not be given credence unless that state can show a secular reason as the foundation for its actions.

Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S. Ct. 2105 (1971)

Established the three part test for determining if an action of government violates First Amendment's separation of church and state:
1) the government action must have a secular purpose;
2) its primary purpose must not be to inhibit or to advance religion;
3) there must be no excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980)

Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.

Wallace v. Jaffree, 105 S. Ct. 2479 (1985)

State's moment of silence at public school statute is unconstitutional where legislative record reveals that motivation for statute was the encouragement of prayer. Court majority silent on whether "pure" moment of silence scheme, with no bias in favor of prayer or any other mental process, would be constitutional.

Edwards v. Aquillard, 107 S. Ct. 2573 (1987)

Unconstitutional for state to require teaching of "creation science" in all instances in which evolution is taught. Statute had a clear religious motivation.

Allegheny County v. ACLU, 492 U.S. 573 (1989)

Court finds that a nativity scene displayed inside a government building violates the Establishment Clause.

Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)

Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.

Church of Lukumi Babalu Ave., Inc. v. Hialeah, 113 S. Ct. 2217 (1993)

City's ban on killing animals for religious sacrifices, while allowing sport killing and hunting, was unconstitutional discrimination against the Santeria religion.

But here's the real test, if you're so sure that your Christianity governs us, walk into a court and try to use your Bible as a legal authority. Just make sure you video tape it, because I want to watch you get laughed right out of there.

Tether, if you ever bothered to do any research prior to posting, it would be a miracle.

Here is the FULL QUOTE from Mr. Adams:

Who composed that army of fine young fellows that was then before my eyes? There were among them Roman Catholics, English Episcopalians, Scotch and American Presbyterians, Methodists, Moravians, Anabaptists, German Lutherans, German Calvinists, Universalists, Arians, Priestleyans, Socinians, Independents, Congregationalists, Horse Protestants, and House Protestants, Deists and Atheists, and Protestants “qui ne croyent rien.” Very few, however, of several of these species; nevertheless, all educated in the general principles of Christianity, and the general principles of English and American liberty.

Could my answer be understood by any candid reader or hearer, to recommend to all the others the general principles, institutions, or systems of education of the Roman Catholics, or those of the Quakers, or those of the Presbyterians, or those of the Methodists, or those of the Moravians, or those of the Universalists, or those of the Philosophers? No. The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence, were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young men could unite, and these principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general principles? I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united, and the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all those young men united, and which had united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial, mundane system. I could, therefore, safely say, consistently with all my then and present information, that I believed they would never make discoveries in contradiction to these general principles. In favor of these general principles, in philosophy, religion, and government, I could fill sheets of quotations from Frederic of Prussia, from Hume, Gibbon, Bolingbroke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, as well as Newton and Locke; not to mention thousands of divines and philosophers of inferior fame.

http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/adams-and-the-general-principles-of-christianity/

1782 Congress "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.

WRONG (as usual), Tether. That is a fake quotation: the US Congress did not even exist in 1782.

John Quincy Adams - "The United States of America were no longer Colonies. They were an independent nation of Christians"

Tether, tell us when John Quincy Adams became a "Founding Father"?

They only instituted it on our money

WRONG. "In God We Trust" was not used on money (sporadically) until 1863, and was not mandated until 1956.

on the deceleration of independence,

The Declaration of Independence is not the basis of our laws and government; that is what the Constitution is for -- and nowhere does the Constitution mention God, Jesus, the bible, or any other religious text or deity. The DOI mentions a "Creator" or "nature's God," because the Founding Fathers were primarily Deists, not strict Christians, and mistrusted religion in general, and Christianity in particular. They deliberately left it up to those reading the DOI to decide for themselves what "Creator" means.

in our judicial system, congress, swearing in ceromonies, oath of offices,

No one in our judicial system, congress, or taking any oath of office must do so on a bible, including the President of the United States. Read Article VI of the Constitution (in fact, read the entire Constitution for once; have someone explain the big words to you).

pledge of allegiance, the star spangled banner

No one in this country is required to recite or sing either of those, nor is anyone required to stand while they are recited or sung. BTW, the phrase "under God" was added to the pledge in 1954, and the pledge itself was not adopted until 1942.

Keep your God out of my government -- as the First Amendment says.

In reality, homosexuality is morally identical to heterosexuality and is just a naturally occurring biological variant. If you were to take out the religious bias fromthe equation, we are left with the simple fact that homosexuality and heterosexuality are both morally neutral; two consenting adults interacting in a way that has no effect on anyone elses wellbeing.

Sarah, please research the purpose and reasoning behind our justice system. Nearly every treatise on the reasons for creating laws includes establishing boundaries for public morals and rules. Nearly every law on the books was derived from a moral value. "Thou shall not commit murder," "Thou shall not steal," etc. I'm not saying that all morality comes from the bible, I'm saying that all laws come from a moral doctrine.

Merriam Webster defines morality as "a doctrine or system of moral conduct" and the word "morals" as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior". So, morality is simply a doctrine of right and wrong behavior.

Many people derive their doctrine of morality from religious books (Bible, Quran, etc.). Many people through tradition, values handed down from family, or some other type of role model. NO ONE is born with an innate sense of morals. Therefore, everyone has just as much right as you do to try to inject their morality into the laws of our society, the laws by which they will be governed. THEY live in this country, too.

Granted, morals change through the years and I believe our laws should reflect that change, but change on many issues is a slow train coming. And very difficult. This issue is one of those slow trains. But your telling Tether specifically, and Christians in general, that their doctrine of morality is irrelevant, while you insist on your moral doctrine being included, is tantamount to bigotry and an attitude of exclusion that you accuse of others.

Simply put, those people and their opinions of homosexuality, "gay" marriage, etc., are completely relevant and you are wrong.

While I agree with your right to fight to change our laws, I also agree with their right to fight to keep laws from changing. It's called "inclusion," and should be part of every "liberal's" vocabulary.

Here's an excerpt from the training website purposeofcriminallaw dot com:

To summarize the answer to the question what is the purpose of criminal law, this law's purpose is to establish rules and boundaries within society and punish those that violate these societal regulations. Based on the nature of the offense, criminal law can dictate whether the individual responsible for the violation should be imprisoned or rehabilitated. Without criminal law, which is also sometimes referred to as penal law, individuals would face no consequences for violating commonly held and accepted public morals or rules.

CC,

Sarah, please research the purpose and reasoning behind our justice system. Nearly every treatise on the reasons for creating laws includes establishing boundaries for public morals and rules. Nearly every law on the books was derived from a moral value. "Thou shall not commit murder," "Thou shall not steal," etc. I'm not saying that all morality comes from the bible, I'm saying that all laws come from a moral doctrine.

Wrong, our laws are derived from SECULAR reasoning and a balancing of rights. Murder and stealing aren't illegal because they're immoral, they're illegal because they infringe on the property rights and right to life of other citizens.

That's why ALL homicide isn't treated equally under the law, nor is all theft. They're are degrees. In some cases, certain people could see a moral reason to steal or kill, yet they'd still be illegal.

Merriam Webster defines morality as "a doctrine or system of moral conduct" and the word "morals" as "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior". So, morality is simply a doctrine of right and wrong behavior.

A doctrine that's personal and subjective. I think homophobia is immoral, that doesn't make it illegal.

Simply put, those people and their opinions of homosexuality, "gay" marriage, etc., are completely relevant and you are wrong.

Nope, YOU are. Because as I said morals are subjective. We don't all have the same moral compass, what makes there's hold legal water? NOTHING. What makes something illegal or legal and therefore relevant is evidence of ACTUAL harm and infringement on the rights of other citizens and a compelling government interest.

Many people derive their doctrine of morality from religious books (Bible, Quran, etc.). Many people through tradition, values handed down from family, or some other type of role model. NO ONE is born with an innate sense of morals. Therefore, everyone has just as much right as you do to try to inject their morality into the laws of our society, the laws by which they will be governed. THEY live in this country, too.

Can you quote where I said they don't have a right to their religion or belief? Or did I say they don't have a right to use that religion and belief in our laws?

To summarize the answer to the question what is the purpose of criminal law, this law's purpose is to establish rules and boundaries within society and punish those that violate these societal regulations. Based on the nature of the offense, criminal law can dictate whether the individual responsible for the violation should be imprisoned or rehabilitated. Without criminal law, which is also sometimes referred to as penal law, individuals would face no consequences for violating commonly held and accepted public morals or rules.

What does that have to do with gay marriage?

Nice attempt, your morals are STILL completely irrelevant. Show me how gay marriage and homosexuality infringe on others rights and therefore what the governmental interest is in banning it and we'll talk.

I think Kim Kardashian is immoral, therefore everyone who watches her show is NOT allowed to get married.

Tether - Interpretation of Jesus? The book is quite clear and easy to understand once you accept who he is.

It's pretty clear your Jesus was a gay dude, especially since before he died he ordered his mother to treat his beloved friend John as her son-in-law.

Theologians agree: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/apr/20/was-jesus-gay-probably

DADDY LONG LEGS - This one really brought a tear to my eye.....very moving.

A father watched his young daughter playing in the garden.
He smiled as he reflected on how sweet and pure his little girl was.
Tears formed in his eyes as he thought about her seeing the wonders of nature through

such innocent eyes. Suddenly she just stopped and stared at the ground.

He went over to her to see what work of God had captured her attention.

He noticed she was looking at two spiders mating.

"Daddy, what are those two spiders doing?" she asked.

"They're mating," her father replied.

"What do you call the spider on top?" she asked.

"That's a Daddy Longlegs," her father answered.

"So, the other one is a Mommy Longlegs?" the little girl asked.

As his heart soared with the joy of such a cute and innocent question he replied, "No dear...both of them are Daddy Longlegs."

The little girl, looking a little puzzled, thought for a moment, then lifted
her foot and stomped them flat.

"Well", she said,

"We're not having any of that poofter **** in our garden !"

sarah: The argument murder is based on recent inalienable rights guaranteed by the constitution would presuppose before that time there was no such thing as murder.WOW! The attempt at having an answer for everything and being right are two different things. Keep swinging, you might get something correct.

Bob,

The argument murder is based on recent inalienable rights guaranteed by the constitution would presuppose before that time there was no such thing as murder

No it doesn't. It presupposes that we live in a secular nation and that the application of law in our nation is not one of morality. That's why murder is illegal HERE. Why it's illegal under other legal systems is ALSO irrelevant.

If you would like to discuss why murder is illegal in Iran, be my guest. But in ALL secular nations it has nothing to do with morals or religion. To say that isn't true would be to say that anyone who doesn't have the same morals or religion as you is predisposed to murder.

Can you quote where I said that was the ONLY rule of law in the world?

Your faux intelligence is showing. Again.

Sara 304

It's obvious of your adamant disbelief in God and your hate for those who DO believe and have faith. God gives us a choice in life to have faith and accept him as our Lord and Savior and have eternal life in Heaven OR deny him and spend eternity in hell.

Life on earth is temporary. Our rewards are in Heaven. It's not too late.

K,

I'll take my chances with hell. Thanks.

And I don't hate all religions, or all Gods. I hate yours, because he sounds like an ignorant, bigoted @!$%#.

That argument doesn't Wash. If God didn't want us to be fully-actualized human beings, why grant life at all?

kkwilson, What's good for the goose is good for the gander... We don't hate the people, we hate the action of blind faith in the wake of overwhelming evidence.

WOW! sarah you could not defend so you attack. Never will you admit your mistakes. Here is a question. Name one secular country before 1795 that had laws based on your stated definition. Oh it is relevant when you try to make a point usuing it.

Bob,

What you call an attack, I call the truth. And you must not have read the first three parts of the post. Or are you just ignoring those.

1795, huh??? Are you saying we should base our legal reasoning on pre-enlitenment philosophy? Answer me this, what kind of medicine did we have prior to 1795? What kind of standing did racial minorities and women have? And then we realized witchcraft isn't real and started using our brains.

You're making my point for me. Rules of law based on anything other than secular reasoning is outdated. This is what we call PROGRESS.

Why isn't adultery, widely considered immoral, illegal here? Why isn't hate speech? Why isn't pornography? What is the difference between those things and murder? Why does murder being a crime stem back to ancient societies prior to mono-theism?

And NO, that's the point. Your opinions and morals are NEVER relevant, because you can't make a legal point using them.

Give up, you're embarrassing yourself.

And by the way, here you go...

http://mideast.shisu.edu.cn/picture/article/33/4b/82/5a6c9a8d4b23bc78012fa4598576/84ffa16b-5b99-4af7-b343-ce4be4ce7e24.pdf

http://faculty.cua.edu/pennington/Law508/histlaw.htm

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14216-talmudic-law

http://www.encyclopedia.com/article-1G2-3424501794/law-and-religion-law.html

http://historyoftheancientworld.com/2012/12/mythology-and-the-origin-of-law-in-early-chinese-thought/

Methinks Sarah needs a job. Or a man.

Methinks you can't keep up intellectually so you resort to petty insults.

Not one secular country. People still believe in magic, there are slaves in the US, under our laws many of those acts are grounds for divorce "legal", what you have just said is you will deflect all reason back to me. As it should be, because you flip flop more than a senator. For all your spouting off of facts you search for high and low, all you said in a nutshell or the point you made is your enlightened from enlightenment which is also outdated and archaic. There has been many changes in the world and sometimes their not good or beneficial to mankind.

Sarah-people resort to kindergarten name-calling when they know they are on the losing end of an argument. I think you rock!

So infertile straight couples should also be barred from marriage?

@Mage ... I hope you're not holding your breath waiting for an answer. No one EVER responds to that question whenever it is posed. The people who claim that gays should not be allowed to marry because they can't reproduce as a couple are so short-sighted that they can't see the logical extension of their own claims.

Bob,

You've ceased to even be coherent. I'll try to make this simpler for you...

Are our laws based on morality?

Is there a valid legal reason for banning gay marriage?

This is what trying to make sense out of "Bob" feels like to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzaL8wiSjnM

I'm sure you can all figure out which one is Bob in that clip.

The problem is you have an agenda to promote any sexual practice you personally approve. The many times I have said it is not enough for you. It always comes back as a moral issue with you why? I have stated and reaffirmed my position over and over again. I do not use nor refute religion you do. Why haven't you listed all the laws on the books of the fifty states that are based on morality? There is a project for you. See wrong again. Well I countered your claim of factoids and you do not elaborate, still searching?

No, you haven't countered anything. Seriously, you don't make sense. I can't debate someone who isn't even coherent. I mean I could try retyping everything I've already said, but why? See, I know what you're doing. It's called deflection and redirection.

Here, try again...

Are our laws based on morality?

Is there a valid legal reason for banning gay marriage?

Why isn't adultery, widely considered immoral, illegal here? Why isn't hate speech? Why isn't pornography? What is the difference between those things and murder? Why does murder being a crime stem back to ancient societies prior to mono-theism?

Why haven't you answered any of these? All I'm going to respond with until you do, is a repost of them.

Talking in cryptic circles might convince others you're correct or intelligent, but anyone with 1/2 an IQ point can see right through it.

Sarah is trying awfully hard to become Fiesty Red Head. She's loaded and prepared for anything you throw at her.

Let her have her fun. She's done her homework and can handle all issues pertaining to a secular world that she has grown to love.

Yes Sarah, we all understand that you object to anything dealing with morality. What else is new.

Truett, I hardly think a hypocritical bigot like you is any judge of "morality," given your lack of same.

Erin....long time no hear from......and as usual I will make the same challenge to you that you always ignore....

Give one example of my being a "hypocritical bigot".........

My fan club of "I'm not as intelligent and significantly more immature than Sarah" is out in force I see. Truett, why don't you crawl back to your irrelevant church and pray for fire and brimstone, or whatever.

Sarah: You reiterate what I addressed. I have spoken in small words and direct answers. This you call incoherent? Why haven't you listed all the laws on the books of the fifty states that are based on morality? There is a project for you. See wrong again. Simple English, states an answer, and for all intent and purpose's coherent. Many of the practices are not legal in public and are restricted by law. "IE" Pornography and others you wish to include in the repertoire you support. P.S. Ancient murder? What do you know of this excluding barbarians almost all cultures had a deity or superstious belief. Murder was a ritual in most "That which we call a rose... by any other name would smell as sweet". What matters is what something is, not what it is called.

P.S. Your words; (anyone with 1/2 an IQ point can see right through it.) Read my post again and you may acquire that 1/2 point you need.

Bob,

Are our laws based on morality?

Is there a valid legal reason for banning gay marriage?

Why isn't adultery, widely considered immoral, illegal here? Why isn't hate speech? Why isn't pornography? What is the difference between those things and murder? Why does murder being a crime stem back to ancient societies prior to mono-theism?

Why haven't you answered any of these? All I'm going to respond with until you do, is a repost of them.

Sarah. #2.31,

I see you remember my bumper sticker post.

"All the best women are in Hell"

Sarah has been asking all the right questions. I don't believe Bob can admit the truth though lol. Sarah your comments were awesome. We need to take God out of our justice system. That's our problem. This land was built on freedom, but apparently not freedom to do by anything other than the hand of God. And this needs to change considering in this land of the free we are suppose to be open to a diverse system of religions...but noooooo...apparently it suppose to all go back to God. Kinda hipocrital our nation huh? That's the way I see it at least.

Sarah --- are you truthful enough to take up the challenge to erin???????

Sarah --- are you truthful enough to take up the challenge to erin

What challenge would that be exactly? Sarah and Erin happen to be correct too!

Name one secular country before 1795 that had laws based on your stated definition.

What does that have to do with our secular country now?

2.48 - the same challenge you always dodge......

So what would your response if one of your children told you they were gay?

Simple, "out of the house".

"I wonder how the world would look if we "Evolved" as homosexuals?"

I wonder how you'd look if you had evolved.

Bill in other words you don't love your children.

As ignorant about evolution as you are about homosexuals I see. Let me see is I can dumb this down for you, doubt it, but its worth a shot. You see an entire species does not evolve, just some. That is how on an island you can find 1 species of bird, that has branched into 5 types. All 5 with specialized beaks to feed on different foods.

And now a lesson on the birds and the bees. You see in order to make a baby a man and a woman just need to have sex. They don't have to like it, and as happened numerous times I am sure, don't even have to remember it.

I am sure just as your politicians you will just focus on something else to cry about. But at least I know I did my part in trying to teach a stupid person today.

How sad Bill-328037. If that's you attitude, than you should have thought before having any children. How sad.

I can handle being ignorant about gays and evolution all day long! Not two things I'm passionate about one bit. Both a waste of time on a self serving society who reflect the choices that fit there personal lifestyle.

As for my children, I do not ignore their needs, I spend time every day playing catch (only I don't look like the gay guy on the VW commercial who tosses a baseball like a woman lol) I talk to my kids candidly about sex, pedophiles, religion, respect and most importantly the true meaning of life.

I have friends who are gay and went to their civil unions ceremonies. Just because a person doesn't agree or has a moral objection does not make them ignorant or racist. Personally I wont even let my Doctor probe my anus for a prostate exam! :)

I bet the traffic in DC wouldn't be so congested!

@!$%#, sounds good to me. I was stuck in it for two hours on Tuesday.

I have friends who are gay and went to their civil unions ceremonies.

Stop lying, no you don't. I love how people like you think you can put that "disclaimer" on your posts and we'll be like, "Oh, his posts are full of homophobic, bigoted tripe, but he has a gay friend so it's okay".

Hans: So you love a book more than your kids. Nice.

Personally I wont even let my Doctor probe my anus for a prostate exam! :)

Afraid you'll like it?

Sarah I know I love how when people mike40 get off on bashing gays then say it ok cause I have a gay friend.

Mike40 just because a gay person is polite to you don't make you friends.

Hey -- all you "small government, individual freedom loving conservatives ------

• If you're against gay marriage --- don't marry a gay person. It's that simple.

I wonder how the world would look if we "Evolved" as homosexuals? I bet the traffic in DC wouldn't be so congested!

Exactly Mike, because after a while there wouldn't be any traffic at all since no one would want to procreate. Eventually society would just die out.

Mike and Spo I know this may be a scary thought but try picking up a science book once in a while.

Scientific studies suggests that we did, in fact, evolve to have a gay subsection of the population.

Gay men tend to have extra fertile female relatives on the maternal side, thus leading to greater reproductive success of the family.

http: // www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/oct/13/highereducation (dot)research
http: // www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct (dot)html

Everything would look exactly the same as it does now, since in fact species including our own have evolved for millenia with homosexuality in the population.

Mike - prostate cancer is one of the biggest killers of men in America, and there is a decent prognosis if caught early. You on the other hand will have full-blown stage IV before it is detected and since you are a white male conservative (guessing here based on context clues) you will likely invoke your health insurance to pay for expensive treatments that the rest of us will eventually subsidize after your death. All because you are homophobic to the point of risking your own health. Thanks for driving up our healthcare costs...

Mike and Spo I know this may be a scary thought but try picking up a science book once in a while.

Why, do you have some Science article put out by the Progressives that uses imaginary data that says in the life span of humans Homosexuality created whole cultures. Please state your references.

Actually, there are species with much higher rates of homosexuality that get by just fine. Dolphins and swans are a couple examples right off the bat.

Finally, I will be able to marry the dolphine I have been seeing secretly for so many years!! Progress--isn't it wonderful--and fudge, everyone loves fudge....

Finally, I will be able to marry the dolphine I have been seeing secretly for so many years!!

Just as soon as that dolphin has legal capacity for informed consent.

In Maryland, Christian Nutter Bigots claimed that same sex marriage would lead to human-robot marriage. What a laugh!

"Just as soon as that dolphin has legal capacity for informed consent."

Science is making progress on communicating with whales and dolphins so the informed consent is just around the corner

Science is making progress on communicating with whales and dolphins so the informed consent is just around the corner

Holy @!$%#, you're honestly arguing that dolphins will be able to enter contracts. Seriously, the closer you all get to the final nail in your bigotry coffin, the crazier your arguments become.

Here's a hint, informed consent takes more than communication. Kids can communicate, they can't contract though.

Good, maybe communication with another intelligent species will show us just how childish we behave when we argue amongst ourselves.

spo I never mentioned homosexuals creating whole cultures. I have no ideal where you came up with that line of thinking.

Holy @!$%#, you're honestly arguing that dolphins will be able to enter contracts.

Not without an Attorney! Sarah, are you up for the job once you complete your Law Degree?

Spo,

No. Because that's asinine. If I was dumb enough to believe dolphins ever have a chance of being granted legal capacity for informed consent, I wouldn't have ever been accepted in the first place.

It sure is amazing how some people are still so nambie pambie about sex. Whats funny is the guy who won't let a doctor check his butt for prostrate cancer. Dude you won't turn gay if the doctor checks your prostrate. I wonder if it must creep you out to wipe your own butt.

Exactly Mike, because after a while there wouldn't be any traffic at all since no one would want to procreate. Eventually society would just die out.

do you even think before typing? have you not ever heard of gay couples using invitro to have kids? or are you simply moronic enough to think it's an unwanted pregnancy?

...I have no ideal...

Completely understandable Neko.

Mike40MD

I wonder how the world would look if we "Evolved" as homosexuals?

I imagine it wouldn't look much different than it does today. Procreation simply would not be handled in the same way. After all, as this article proves, even gays are interested in having children. If everyone was homosexual I have little doubt we'd figure something out.

have you not ever heard of gay couples using invitro to have kids?

Yes, of course and a waste of Money since you never can be 100% sure as to the donor, or if the couple will last long enough to raise the child. Better odds with a Man and a Woman acting as the parents who are committed to a marriage, and have the right tools to do the job right.

I imagine it wouldn't look much different than it does today.

Are you delusional or have you never opened a book on Human Development? Name one society since the dawn of man that evolved into Homosexuals and exists today?

point being even if only gay people were around the desire to procreate would still be there. also, your argument for a man and woman couple raising a child being better odds is ridiculous at best and completely stupid at worst given the 50% divorce rate we have. a gay couple may or may not last but there is actually proof that 1 out of 2 hetero couples divorce.

If I was dumb enough to believe dolphins ever have a chance of being granted legal capacity for informed consent, I wouldn't have ever been accepted in the first place.

Really, where on the Law School Application does it say you can't represent Dolphins as a legal profession?

also, your argument for a man and woman couple raising a child being better odds is ridiculous at best at completely stupid at worst given the 50% divorce rate we have. a gay couple may or may not last but there is actually proof that 1 out of 2 hetero couples divorce.

And you can show years of studies that show homosexual parents are better at raising children and have marriages that last longer then Heterosexuals? Who is to say that homosexuals will not have a higher divorce rate which at this point is pure conjecture that they will have a lower divorce rate, or are in a better position than a Heterosexual couple to raise children. The fact is there is not enough information to support Homosexuals being better parents, or raising children, and probably never will be because for thousands of years it has not been successful. My opinion is that without the traditional roles found in a Heterosexual relationships Homosexual marriages will fail without some form of strong Government involvement. And look how badly Government involvement has worked in inner cities: Absent or No Parent, Domestic Violence, Drug Addiction...etc.

i don't have to prove anything since i never claimed homosexuals would be better. you made claims, not me, therefore the burden of proof is on you, not me. i just realized i'm debating a moron.

Science is making progress on communicating with whales and dolphins so the informed consent is just around the corner

At which time, we'll learn that they are too intelligent to WANT to marry @theright2beararms

Really, where on the Law School Application does it say you can't represent Dolphins as a legal profession?

No where. It's implied anyone who makes it to law school understands that dolphins can sign retainer agreements BECAUSE THEY LACK INFORMED CONSENT. And, you know, thumbs.

@!$%#, I meant CAN'T sign retainer agreements. And I only feel the need to clarify that because some of these posts lead me to believe some of the posters actually think they CAN.

No need to apologize Sarah, I know it is attorney-like to make lots of mistakes; especially the type that makes one look foolish.

Well that's good. At least I'm not trying to make a case for dolphins entering contracts though. Now, damn, THAT is foolish.

At least I'm not trying to make a case for dolphins entering contracts though.

Not yet, but I'm sure you have time to reconsider before you actually get to practice; God help us all including Dolphins!

Yes, those who choose to defend legalized discrimination should be VERY afraid.

Spo de o de

Are you delusional or have you never opened a book on Human Development? Name one society since the dawn of man that evolved into Homosexuals and exists today?

Humanity has overcome greater obstacles, there is no reason to believe we wouldn't have done the same in such an instance.

Ahhhh spoken like a man of moral conviction! Well said! It is most definitely a choice.. a very poor one at that

how do you figure moral99 has a poor example? Why don't you back up your comment instead of just blindly shooting it down without conviction? Anyway, kudos to your comment moral99.

Ah...spoken like two morons with little education. Of course this is the way you believe...because science is wicked, education is wicked, unconditional love is wicked. However, you are just practicing the will of your god...the most evil fictional character ever created...and it's the evil who follow him to the tee. Here's what your God does...if you believe your bible, and you must because you hate gays, don't work on Sunday, and don't eat shelfish (I would hope not, else you're not living the bible to the letter and just choosing to hate selectively and using your bible to defend the fact that you're douchebags), then you follow the tennents below. You should, they came out of your book.

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_evilgod.html

So yeah...sure, it's the gays who are immoral...not you guys, who would deny someone, regardless of THAT passage in your silly, little book. If your God were a parent, the children would have set fire to him in his bed and it would have been well deserved.

Seriously, you're comparing homosexuality with incest? That's your argument? Homosexuals don't choose to be attracted to the same sex any more than heterosexuals choose to be attracted to the opposite sex. Yes they choose to act on their attraction, just like heterosexuals choose to act on theirs - two consenting adults, not a consenting adult and a some helpless victim. I'd love to see how people like you would act if "God" suddenly pronounced that being homosexual is his new plan. You have no heart, and therefore have created your own hell on earth and in heaven.

It is most definitely a choice..

So, Mike, tell us, when did you choose to be straight? And why on earth would someone choose to be gay when they know they'll have to deal with people like you?

You will still be able to tell people that you think it's wrong to be gay, you can feel free to disown gay family members/friends. You just don't get to force others to conform to your lifestyle.

An individual is either attractive to me or not. There isn't a choice involved there. I do have a choice on whether or not I want to pursue a relationship with that person, but if there isn't that spark of attraction initially, nothing's going to happen. As a straight person, I will never be attracted to a person of the same gender period, so it's not like I'm choosing to only have relations with the opposite gender. Trying/choosing to fake being gay would eventually tear me up inside from living that lie. I have zero reason to believe this is any different for gay people-they are simply not attracted to people of the opposite gender, and trying to enter into a relationship with an oppositely gendered person would make them feel exactly the same way you would feel if you tried to enter into a relationship with a person of your same gender.

Also, your example of not wanting to sleep with your son is a poor comparison. It means you're not a pedophile and you are not incestuous (things that are very, very wrong), both of which have nothing to do with being gay.

As a good, church going Christian who believes in LOVE, I need to inform these "holier than thou" types, that the Bible WAS WRITTEN BY MAN! GOD did not write the Bible!

Do as I say (Jesus's actions), not as I do (write books).

Reaper, so if we don't believe as you do, we're MORONS? You sir, are a disgrace to the human race. You feel that nobody can believe differently than you, and if they do, they are subject to your ridicule. Who died and left you in charge? "Here's what God does...." you shouldn't speak a word about God, which you obviously know nothing about. Why do anti - Bible folks always use the Old Testament to push their agendas? Because they know NOTHING about the Bible. I don't hate you - I feel sorry for you. The next time you use the word "hate", look in the mirror.

One does not simply DECIDE to be straight or gay, you are BORN that way. You can't choose who you are sexually attracted to, any more than you had a choice in choosing your eye color, hair color, eventual height or eventual weight. Hope that clears things up.

it's just plain wrong. It's not love... It's perversion.....I love my son......I don't want to sleep with him....It's a choice period!

So are you saying that the desire to is there, but you don't want to so you choose not to. Honestly what kind of person even comes up with a comparison like this. Out of all the examples you could pick the first one that popped into your head was sleeping with your son????

As for the first part, no you have every right to say its wrong or a sin. The right you don't have nor ever did, is to make your religious belief a law for everyone else. How would you feel if the government decided to pick a part of a religion you don't prescribe to and make it law? Some churches allow and even marry gay members, what right do you have to tell them how to practice their religion.

Bill, if the bible is the word of god, then how can it be changed by men? A little convenient, don't you think? If god is so perfect, then why the need for revision and exclusion by imperfect people?

I don't want to sleep with him....It's a choice period!

Well good, because that would be incest, not homosexuality.

Bill: "Why do anti-Bible people use the old Testament to push their agendas?' LMAO!!! Hey Bill-You're the ones that keep quoting Leviticus!!!! LOL!!!

Homosexuality occurs in nature. God invented nature. Therefore homosexuality cannot be either evil or unnatural.

Homosexuality may be a religious sin, but it is not immoral and has no detrimental effect on society. There is simply no real secular justification for any legal discrimination against gays, and all attempts to discriminate against gays in the law can be traced back to bigotry and religious tenants. Without a secular reason to pass laws discriminating against gays, we are left with the simple fact that anti-gay legislation is purely bigotry and has no place in the law.

If homosexuals are legally discriminated against due to purely religious reasons, what prevents other potential “sinners” from being persecuted for their “sins?” After all, a great many things that we enjoy every day are considered “sins” by one religion or another:

• According to Judaism, people must eat kosher and it is a “sin” to eat bacon, cheeseburgers, lobster and most BBQ.
• According to Christianity, all premarital sex is a “sin.”
• According to Islam, women who don’t cover their bodies are committing a “sin.”
• According to Hinduism, it is a “sin” to touch somebody of a higher caste.

Just like with homosexuality, none of these religious “sins” have a secular justification and it is insane to expect that society will conform to a religion that they don’t believe in. Unlike some countries (ex. Iran) we in the USA don’t alter the secular laws to reflect any religion’s concept of sin because we understand the idea of religious choice. The second we accept bigotry against gays, we open the door to religious laws infiltrating further into our country and attacking our religious freedoms further.

Unless somebody can point to a real victim of homosexual behavior and make a secular case for discrimination (which is impossible), it is ridiculous to legally discriminate against homosexuals. Such laws make as much sense as laws that would enforce bans on other behaviors that some religions consider sins—such as banning all seafood, or mandating that all men must grow their beards to a certain length.

Let religions keep their ideas of sin in-house, leaving secular logic to decide secular law. If religious individuals want to label homosexuality as a sin, that is there right, but their label should have no power outside of their religious faith (ex. they can refuse to marry gay people in their house of worship, but they can’t prevent gay people from getting married).

Butterfly...that argument holds little water... Animals, by nature, have no reasoning skills. They operate on instinct and hormones and, what we perceive as sexual behavior in them is, for the most part, imposing dominance over another animal. We anthropomorphise animals regularly... attributing human characteristic to furry creatures. They have no concept of love or sexuality. Therefore, are incapable of homosexuality.

Do you know for a fact that animals have no capacity to love? Ask anyone with a dog or a cat. Likewise, it has been demonstrated scientifically that some higher mammals do have some level of reasoning skills.

@Imogen...So in saying that to pass laws, because a person who has religious beliefs might have certain views on a certain subject, the laws should only be voted on and/or passed by Athiests, no matter what the agenda?

Tin,

No, she's saying to pass a law making something illegal you have to have a secular reason and evidence that the government has an interest in banning it, stemming from its infringement on the rights of others.

Tinbashr, no. If all religions, including a lack of religion, feel that something is demonstrably damaging to people against their will, then a law would be required. But one religion cannot impose their belief on another through law. You can not like homosexuality all you want, but making it illegal does not gain you anything. It only takes from those who believe differently than you.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Why do all the people on the right get so creeped out about gay people. Why do you care? Do gay people get as creeped out about straight people? Why should anyone care about someones sexuality? Its not anyones business. But for the folks on the right your intolerant post make for interesting reading. It just shows intolerance still prevails in America.

So, Mike, tell us, when did you choose to be straight? And why on earth would someone choose to be gay when they know they'll have to deal with people like you?

more important than his choice is the fact that if he chose that means he had feelings for both men and women. if you had to choose then sorry, you're gay. i never had to choose cause i was never into other dudes.

moral99compass

It's not love... It's perversion.....I love my son......I don't want to sleep with him....It's a choice period!

Ummmm, are you suggesting that you wouldn't have a problem sleeping with your daughter?? Because if not your example is beyond ridiculous.

And could someone please explain why anyone would choose to be gay?? Why would anyone choose to be @!$%#ed over by half the country including the government??

Backcountry164

And could someone please explain why anyone would choose to be gay??

Why would anyone choose to be straight? Same concept in thinking and reasoning. We choose to be straight because we prefer the opposite sex. That is what we are attracted to.

So asking why anyone would choose to be gay is the same answer but in reverse. People who choose to be gay prefer the same sex because that is what they are attracted to.

Why would anyone choose to be @!$%#ed over by half the country including the government??

And everyone is getting screwed by the government if you haven't noticed. But that is due to a combination of problems. Just because someone is attracted to the same sex doesn't mean that the gender they prefer is fair game and should expect to find themselves being raped all of a sudden. The concepts of attraction are the same as heterosexuals. Not all men find all women attractive just like not all women find all men attractive. Those who prefer same sex think the same way. Not all men find all men attractive. Not all women find all women attractive. I know homosexual people who don't find others who are homosexual attractive just due to their preferences of who they are looking for. Like some people are not attracted to those who are short, blonde, tall, red-head, fat, thin, etc.

State of Awareness

So asking why anyone would choose to be gay is the same answer but in reverse. People who choose to be gay prefer the same sex because that is what they are attracted to.

I understand this. My point is that some people claim homosexuality is only a choice but you really don't get to choose who you are attracted to.

@Lisa M from Wayland:

Animals, by nature, have no reasoning skills. They operate on instinct and hormones and, what we perceive as sexual behavior in them is, for the most part, imposing dominance over another animal. We anthropomorphise animals regularly... attributing human characteristic to furry creatures. They have no concept of love or sexuality. Therefore, are incapable of homosexuality

Some of the animals on this earth are 10 times smarter than you. And most certainly have the ability to love. Take penguins for example. They pick one mate and mate with them forever. Do some research before you speak.

Decades ago, the South also thought that integration was just DESTRUCTIVE and that interracial marriages would destroy the sanctity of marriage. Or even two or three years ago, when conservatives were howling about the 'dangerous effects' of DADT repeal and how soldiers would flee the army.

It's a good thing that all worked out so well. Fear-mongering is not the same as 'the Earth is flat'.

southgeorgia

Hundreds of years ago "experts" also assured everyone that the earth was flat...that the practice of hand washing in hospital settings was unnecessary.

Those weren't "experts" they were doddering old conservative fools who never tried to figure out anything that might upset their world view. The anti-gay sentiments and politics are held by the same sort of folks today; they're "agin' it because they're agin' it" - just like they know the bible is true because the bible tells them so.

How many homophobes does it take to change a light bulb?

Actually.... man has known the earth was round...ummm...forever... he knew this because he could see from mountains that the horizon was "round".... the argument was that the earth was the center of the solar system/universe because, religious leaders believed humankind was God's greatest creation...therefore, had to be the center of all things...

Lisa M from Wayland

Actually.... man has known the earth was round...ummm...forever... he knew this because he could see from mountains that the horizon was "round".... the argument was that the earth was the center of the solar system/universe because, religious leaders believed humankind was God's greatest creation...therefore, had to be the center of all things...

Uh Lisa.....may want to do your research.

The Flat Earth model is an archaic belief that the Earth's shape is a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures have had conceptions of a flat Earth, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD) and China until the 17th century. It was also typically held in the aboriginal cultures of the Americas, and a flat Earth domed by the firmament in the shape of an inverted bowl is common in pre-scientific societies.^[1] The Jewish conception of a flat earth is found in biblical and post biblical times.^[2][3][4]

The paradigm of a spherical Earth was developed in Greek astronomy, beginning with Pythagoras (6th century BC), although most Pre-Socratics retained the flat Earth model. Aristotle accepted the spherical shape of the Earth on empirical grounds around 330 BC, and knowledge of the spherical Earth gradually began to spread beyond the Hellenistic world from then on.^[5][6][7][8] The misconception that educated Europeans at the time of Columbus believed in a flat Earth, and that his voyages refuted that belief, has been referred to as the Myth of the Flat Earth.^[9] In 1945, it was listed by the Historical Association (of Britain) as the second of 20 in a pamphlet on common errors in history.^[10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

That one is true. People did believe the Earth was flat as well as believing they were the center of the universe because they thought the sun and the stars circled the Earth.

@State of Awareness:

I was just going to say the same thing lol Lisa isn't so smart....

@Lisa M from Wayland:

You should really consider researching things before you speak lol this is the second comment I have found where you failed to input any kind of support to your comments...

Give it a rest and reread the article. This recommendation by the American Academy of Pediatrics is based on an unbiased study of children in gay households. So many studies show that such children are not more likely to be gay (they ain't trainin' a bunch of homos!). Rather, the children were well adjusted, and grew to be contributing members of society. The stability of the household means much much more than the sexual orientation of the parents... Duh?

Because doctors are stupid, right Gregg? What do they know with all their fancy learnin' and facts and whatnots?!? Better to be ignorant and hateful than educated and tolerant, right?

The point is that there are qualities that make a good parent, and qualities that make one a bad parent. Is the person caring or self-involved? Are they dismissive or attentive? Are they involved in their child's life or could they care less about what's going on with their child? Are they extremely rigid with respect to rules/control (child doesn't ever get to make decisions or have a say in family matters, etc), or extremely permissive (no rules whatsoever-child is the boss), or do they strike a balance? None of these things are dependent upon the parent's gender or sexual orientation.

Greg I know a girl raised by two gay men. She is now 20 yrs old studying to be a doctor and here the big shocker for you she has a boyfriend. So I guess the idea that anyone raised by gays has to by gay themselves out the window huh.

Well, guys...of course doctors are always right!... Let's applaud things like electroshock, lobotomies, bleeding patients to balance out the "humours".... etc... Nope...doctors have never been wrong...

Lisa, that is what people at the time believed would help considering that technology was not readily available in the learning process. Electroshock therapy is just about nonexistant and lobotomies are not performed anymore. Bleeding patients has stopped as well. You need to do your research on the beliefs of people during that time period and medical advances before spouting off. At the time these were being done, everyone believed that they helped people. As further research developed, they found that these remedies did not help people the way they thought and thus most, if not all, of these treatments stopped.

Lisa M from Wayland

I am sure you would have a few choice words if I insulted or judged your family so why do you think you have the credentials or the right to judge someone elses family merely becasue there may be two dads or two moms?

Forget the Rabbi, I'm going to get my moral guidance from my kids pediatrician....

And it is our obligation to judge others and be judged, otherwise we may be robbed , raped or worse.

It is when we force our decisions upon others that it is an issue.

#7, Lisa brings up a valid point.

The Psych org use to classify homosexuality as a mental disorder, now they don't. Did you support their previous 'professional determination'? Why not, un-educated and intolerant are we? Too many on both sides will only accept information that supports their current position. The most amusing is 'oh, that site is biased' but never specifically detailing why. Of course, there are those that have never met an expletive or insult they could resist using. Only proving, that their posts are all about ego/id and scoring 'points', not attempting to better society.

OMG Lisa M from Wayland, this is the 3rd comment I've seen where your stupidy shines out. Seriously, do your research before you speak!! I'd rather have a doctor to care for me than I dunno let's say a plumber, or a teacher, or a dog walker, etc. By the way, doctor's can't do ANYTHING to you without your consent!! There are legal documents involved and when signing, you are signing that you understand certain circumstances depending on what you are being treated for!! My God, I have never seen such ignorance out of a person!! It makes me laugh but it's still sad that informed people like you feel like you actually know what you're talking about when you really don't lol.

My friend, you are so right. We have to pray for this world and these people. God knows they are not receiving it from the "world" who is only pushing these people deeper into sin.

Not everyone is Christian (gay or straight) and agrees with the teachings. If you would not like your children to be taught something from a religious text that you do not agree with (i.e. a non-Christian religion) you cannot demand that you have the right to force the same onto others. You are free to teach you children whatever religion you desire-whether or not gay marriage or adoption is legal will never change that. Nor will it force your church to preform marriage ceremonies (or any ceremony really) or accept anyone as a member that it doesn't want to or to pronounce that it believes that being homosexual is ok (if the church independently decides that it wants to do any of these things ok, but it's not going to be forced to).

So you also obey all of the other prohibitions in Leviticus? And if not, why not?

I have never seen a Christian avoid polycotton blends even though Leviticus forbids.

And have you noticed when you call them on it they never respond?

Has anyone wondered if there are gay christian leaders? How could I ask that question I say to myself. Christians can't be gay they have god on their side.

Ever heard of Bishop Robinson? He is an openly gay Episcopalian Bishop.

I am gay and I also do ministry in a part time capacity.

#8

'God made it, SO IT IS GOOD'. Ready for a good hard spanking, are we? Now using your 'logic'.

..

God made the Angels, Angels are good,

Lucifer is an Angel, Lucifer is Satan the ruler of Hell,

Satan and Hell are good.

..

A bit feeble minded, but you are entitled to your delusions. But not to call that logic.

Care to post where that fact is based? Medically...not out of some book of fairy tales. We'll be waiting for your "facts"...and waiting...and waiting...and waiting...

Should we just take your word for it since you're obviously smarter than a team of medical professionals?

If that is true, then where did gay people come from? If everyone adopts the sexuality of their parents, then there would be no gay people with heterosexual parents-and that is simply not the case. And since gay people can't have children in the usual way with their partners, then how would the first gay person have come about? They must have come from heterosexual people, and thus the orientation of a person's parents does not effect that person's orientation.

Alright, it's not about orientation, but choice. Have you ever seen homosexual genes?

Reaper, who gives you the audacity to be the supreme leader of the human race? Please stop referring to the Bible as a "book of fairy tales". It's an insult to those that believe in it. But, you can believe medical professionals, and we'll believe our Bibles.

Reaper, who gives you the audacity to be the supreme leader of the human race?

And who gives you the right to determine what everyone must believe? Talk about hubris...

Bill,

Alright, it's not about orientation, but choice. Have you ever seen homosexual genes?

have you done research into epigenetics ?

your sexual orientation is NOT a choice, although i'm sure you'd like to believe different because its easier for you to deal with it that way to justify your hatred.

Reaper, who gives you the audacity to be the supreme leader of the human race? Please stop referring to the Bible as a "book of fairy tales".

why should Reaper stop referring to it as a book of fairytales then that is exactly what it is ? oh, because you believe in it ! how foolish ! so you believe you can survive in the belly of a whale for 3 days ? you believe the entire world got flooded out except one guy on a boat who happened to have 2 of every animal with him ? do you believe in magic dust and the tooth fairy as well ?

It's an insult to those that believe in it.

no, the fact they believe in it is an insult to themselves

But, you can believe medical professionals, and we'll believe our Bibles.

so basically - we can believe our facts/science/research and you can believe your fiction ?

your sexual orientation is NOT a choice

Really? Why then does the thesaurus list synonyms for "orientation" as "acclimatization", and "adaptation"???

Mr.Steady

ok, let's go with your theory.

tell me the following:

the exact date and time you actively chose to be a heterosexual as opposed to being a homosexual ?

the reasons you chose heterosexuality over homosexuality ?

the time in your life that you had sexual attractions to the same gender and to the opposite genders ?

your criteria for deciding that the opposite gender was better for you even tho you still had the sexual attraction and desire for the same gender ?

do you still fight with your same gender sexual attraction daily or did you somehow figure out a way to turn off your sexual attraction for the same gender ?

at any moment, do you have the ability to choose to become homosexual ? have you tried this yet to test it out and then choose to become a heterosexual again ?

that should be a good start :) answer those questions and get back to me ok ? thanks !

of course, if you can't answer them or you do say you have no attraction to the same gender then you obviously didn't make a choice. if you've only had an attraction to the opposite gender and none other, then you were obviously born that way.

to say its a choice, then you are stating that both options are equal and in this case - you had an equal sexual attraction to both genders. if you didn't have an equal sexual attraction to both genders, then there was no choice involved.

ok, let's go with your theory.

tell me the following:

the exact date and time you actively chose to be a heterosexual as opposed to being a homosexual ?

the reasons you chose heterosexuality over homosexuality ?

the time in your life that you had sexual attractions to the same gender and to the opposite genders ?

You homosexual supporters all think you are so smart when you ask that question. In your mind you have just "proven" that it can't be a choice because you "know" that the person can't say they were born heterosexual. The problem is you assume that every person has to be one or the other. Who says? I could ask the same ridiculous question: "When did you choose to not be a pedophile or a murderer?" By your logic, a pedophile is born that way and they have no power to choose not to act on their "natural" instincts. So Dennis Rader was born a murderer and he had no choice but to kill people because he was born that way? In other words, by your logic you are either born a murderer or not. The simple answer to your snide question is that everyone chooses to do that which is natural or not. Everyone is born a heterosexual. Homosexuals and murderers simply choose to divert from that which is natural. The ironic fact is that you accuse those of us who oppose homosexuality to be narrow-minded, but in reality you are viewing the issue from your own narrow-minded viewpoint that sexual orientation must be either-or.

What about bi-sexuals? Don't they have to choose? Or are you now saying you can be born a third way?

You still didn't answer my question about the synonyms. Instead, you deflect by asking several questions of your own. I love how you homosexual advocates always do that when your arguments fail.

One more point. No one wakes up and just decides that they are going to be a homosexual, which is what you are trying to imply that I am saying. It is a learned behavior.

"Wow! Who did the research for this one? It is a fact that children base their value systems on their MOTHER and FATHER's examples and lifestyles. I can guarantee that the children of these homo unions will carry on the abnormalities that their parents display because they will see them as normal."

Yo would be so wrong. I have gone to a church made up mostly of Gays and Lesbians an in this church we have seen children raised in gay households from new borns to childhood to adulthood and with one exception all of them are well adjusted married heterosexuals who bring their children to this church. One is a gay an in a relationship for more than 10 years. You seem to forget that the majority of gays and lesbians are raised in HETEROSEXUAL households! All fo these children were raised in GLBT Christian households.

Mr.Steady

*yawn* ok, let me spell it out for you since you obviously need help :)

Really? Why then does the thesaurus list synonyms for "orientation" as "acclimatization", and "adaptation"???

you looked up "orientation" correct ? well that word does stand on its own.. let's look:

from Merriam-Webster:

definition of ORIENTATION:

a: the act or process of orienting or of being orientedb: the state of being oriented; broadly:arrangement, alignment

2
a : a usually general or lasting direction of thought, inclination, or interest b : a person's self-identification as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual <sexual orientation>

3
: change of position by organs, organelles, or organisms in response to external stimulus

oh ! look at that ! it even includes sexual orientation !! i even bolded it for you so you can see it :)
its an inclination !
let's look that up quick, shall we ?

again, from Merriam-Webster:

definition of Inclination:
a obsolete : natural disposition : character b : a particular disposition of mind or character : propensity; especially : liking <had little inclination for housekeeping>

2
: an act or the action of bending or inclining: as a : bow, nod b : a tilting of something

3
a : a deviation from the true vertical or horizontal : slant; also : the degree of such deviation b : an inclined surface : slope c (1) : the angle determined by two lines or planes (2) : the angle made by a line with the x-axis measured counterclockwise from the positive direction of that axis

4
: a tendency to a particular aspect, state, character, or action <the clutch has an inclination to slip>

oh oh !!! its a disposition !!! here's the definition for that:

again, from Merriam-Webster:

definition of disposition
: the act or the power of disposing or the state of being disposed: as a : administration, control b : final arrangement : settlement <the disposition of the case> c (1) : transfer to the care or possession of another (2) : the power of such transferal d : orderly arrangement (see ¹dispose)
2
a : prevailing tendency, mood, or inclination b : temperamental makeup c : the tendency of something to act in a certain manner under given circumstances

and look -- some synonyms for you for inclination --> grain, nature, temper, temperament

gee.. with the dictionary we've even come back to it being apart of YOUR NATURE !! gee, go figure right ??

so in answer to your question: it simply says that because its telling you (as we've just proven) that your sexual orientation is apart of your NATURE !

You homosexual supporters all think you are so smart when you ask that question. In your mind you have just "proven" that it can't be a choice because you "know" that the person can't say they were born heterosexual.

obviously they can't say they were born heterosexual. to say they were born heterosexual would state they were born with their sexual orientation and homosexual is another sexual orientation so then they'd be stating that you are born homosexual and its not a choice.. so obviously you won't say you were born heterosexual and thusly, i've just proven my point again that its not a choice - even with your own words :)

The problem is you assume that every person has to be one or the other. Who says? I could ask the same ridiculous question: "When did you choose to not be a pedophile or a murderer?"

well, this isn't a good comparison because it has NOTHING to do with your sexual orientation, but i can play anyway. I never chose to be a pedophile or murderer. I never had any attractions or urges to have sexual relations with a child or to end someone's life.

Pedophilia isn't a sexual orientation and neither is murder. so in the end this isn't a good comparison, which doesn't surprise me - you love to just deflect and not make any logical comparisons when you have your point proven wrong :)

By your logic, a pedophile is born that way and they have no power to choose not to act on their "natural" instincts.

nope. research pedophilia, its not a sexual orientation. in fact, pedophilia is a crime of power and not passion, they love having the power and control. plus, a pedophile is far more likely to self-identify as heterosexual rather than homosexual, so this comparison isn't a good one, yet again.

in reality - a lot of pedophiles aren't developed enough psychologically to have a sexual orientation (seriously, do your research) because they aren't capable of having an adult relationship.

So Dennis Rader was born a murderer and he had no choice but to kill people because he was born that way?

murder is not the same as sexual orientation, again - stop comparing apples to hammers. try to get a comparison that is a little bit similar ? ending someone's life is definitely a choice, while who you are sexually attracted to is not a choice.

In other words, by your logic you are either born a murderer or not.

again, choice *yawn* you are definitely starting to bore me now.

The simple answer to your snide question is that everyone chooses to do that which is natural or not.

well homosexuality is natural. natural means to be found in nature, homosexuality qualifies for that.

Everyone is born a heterosexual.

incorrect, obviously you don't like logic and facts. try doing some research, or even just look at the definition i posted in this comment -- there are three sexual orientations.

Homosexuals and murderers simply choose to divert from that which is natural.

murderers do, yes. homosexuals do not.

The ironic fact is that you accuse those of us who oppose homosexuality to be narrow-minded, but in reality you are viewing the issue from your own narrow-minded viewpoint that sexual orientation must be either-or.

correct idea, incorrect application. here is the correct application for that idea --> "The ironic fact is that you accuse those of us who oppose homosexuality to be narrow-minded and its very true because in reality we are viewing the issue from our own narrow-minded viewpoint that sexual orientation must be either-or."

What about bi-sexuals? Don't they have to choose? Or are you now saying you can be born a third way?

bisexuality is a sexual orientation, are you really this dense ? they have the option to choose either gender to have sexual relations with, or romantic relations etc. they are sexually attracted to both genders. try leaving your house once in awhile and live in the real world instead of this fantasy world you have created for yourself.

You still didn't answer my question about the synonyms.

i sure did ! :)

Instead, you deflect by asking several questions of your own.

wow.. you definitely just pointed out EXACTLY what you did to me ! you didn't answer my questions and then spouted off questions about pedophilia and murderers !! what a great deflection done by you !!!

I love how anti-homosexual advocates always do that when their arguments fail.

oh i love it too !!!! :)

Mr Steady/Bill-

In terms of attraction, no there isn't a choice there. I meet a person and I am either attracted to them or not. As I get to know a person, sometimes I find out things about them that lessen their attractiveness (such as I discover they're a terrible person), but if I'm not innately attracted to someone when we first meet, there's nothing I or they can do that's going to change that. In terms of which of the various people you find yourself attracted to, yes, there is a choice in which one(s) you want to pursue. If you're only attracted to one gender, then there isn't like there's a choice for you to date people of the gender you're not attracted to-I couldn't do it- living that lie would destroy me. If a person is attracted to both genders, then certainly they would/could choose to pursue someone of either gender as they saw fit.

Think about how you would feel personally about dating somebody of your same gender. Is that really a valid choice for you? Do you feel like that's an actual option and it would be fair for an outsider to say "it's just their choice not to pursue that and Bill or Mr Steady could choose to be gay at any moment without any internal discord/conflict and everything would be great"? That's how gay people feel about dating someone of the opposite gender and what you are demanding of them by stating that being gay is just a choice.

@Mr.Steady 9.9...First off, I am a STRAIGHT male, married to a beautiful STRAIGHT woman, and we have 2 STRAIGHT sons. Second, read my post at 5.9. Allthough I do not condone the LGBT lifestyle, THEY CAN"T HELP IT!. They were BORN that way. The same as us straights, the bi-sexuals, pedophiles, murderers, thieves, etc. You have NO choice in how your brain is wired. As far as "being a learned behavior", just how, exactly, do you "Learn" a feeling. TOTALLY RIDICULOUS...

being hetero is not a choice it is a natural gradual easing just like all other aspects of maturation, do heteros experiment to find out if something is better? Maybe so..... but not giving in to an "alternative lifestyle" is a choice that many make. and those that do ,deserve the same respect from the gay community that gays expect from everyone else.

In order not to offend religious sensibilities maybe it's best our government do away with "marriage" and simply use contracts to handle the details of Any union. Leave the marriage to the churches.

PS . there sure are a lot of child molesters out there esp molesting boys, are they gay and does the gay community accept their behaviour as "normal".

are child molesters born that way? or is it simply disregard of what is "right".

the age of consent is 16 here in NV, is it right for a gay man to bed a 16yo boy who was not looking for a gay experience.

rcovit-no, the gay community does not condone rape or pedophilia. The fact that somebody preys on a child tells me nothing about their feelings/attractions for adults, so I can't say based upon their actions toward children if they are straight or gay. Gay and pedophile are two separate things (as you could say being straight and pedophile are two separate things).

I don't know if child molesters are born that way. I would personally conjecture that perhaps there are a few individuals who are sick that way, but that for the most part pedophilia is about control and power. Besides, there are more arguments to why we should allow gay marriage beyond "born that way", and pedophilia fails all of the other considerations. If we make a little table:

born that way-heterosexual yes-homosexual yes-pedophile maybe

can both parties consent-heterosexual yes-homosexual yes-pedophile no

is there an inherent victim-heterosexual no-homosexual no-pedophile yes

etc, etc, but you can see that pedophilia is clearly in a different class. The issue of whether pedophiles are born that way is more relevant to what we, as a society, should do to convicted pedophiles as punishment.

finally, if a gay man beds a 16 year old boy against his will, that man is a rapist and does not represent the gay community. It is an equal situation to a straight man bedding a 16 year old girl against her will-he's not representative of the straight community. Both acts are not ok and both men are rapists and should go to jail. Honestly if anybody sleeps with another person who didn't consent, that person is a rapist regardless of the genders, sexual orientations, and ages of the people involved.

Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns.

There sure are a lot of child molesters out there esp molesting boys, are they gay and does the gay community accept their behaviour as "normal".

Most homosexuals do not support pedophilia or any molesting of those who are not of age to consent.

For Nevada though, if you read through what it says about the age of consent there, it explains:

The legal age of basic consent in Nevada is 16 years of age. However it should be noted that in 1997 the State of Nevada passed a law that says having sex with a minor is illegal if the adult is in a command or authoritative posistion over the minor, such as a teacher, coach, employer, foster parent, and so on. In that case the minimium age of consent would be 18 years of age.

is it right for a gay man to bed a 16yo boy who was not looking for a gay experience.

No. That would be considered rape and a man (regardless of orientation) who did the act will be convicted under the law.

Kudos to the AMA and AAP for using science to present logic and fact.

But they didn't, they used presumption and speculation to present opinions.

honestdebate

But they didn't, they used presumption and speculation to present opinions.

oh ? you did read this article - didn't you ? read below (pay attention to the bold words, ok ?)

The American Academy of Pediatrics' new policy, published online Thursday, cites research showing that the parents' sexual orientation has no effect on a child's development. Kids fare just as well in gay or straight families when they are nurturing and financially and emotionally stable, the academy says.

oh ? it says research.. not presumption and speculation.. how odd is that ?

Honest debate probably thinks the bible is logic and fact so how would she/he ever know the real thing?

Wow sbstar you really hit the nail on the head, way to show you are completely incapable of rational thought, but completely capable of being an intolerant liberal.

Phoenyx, they really did a great job describing this research that has been going on for a century haven't they?

When it fits your agenda, 3 years is enough to conside 'long term esearch.'

When it fits your agenda, 3 years is enough to conside 'long term esearch.'

You are apparently unfamiliar with research and statistical methodology.

honestdebate

Phoenyx, they really did a great job describing this research that has been going on for a century haven't they?

if you wish to know more in depth about the research, i suggest you actually look it up instead of expecting everything to be spoonfed to you.. why don't you try putting a little effort into things instead of depending on others to do it all for you ?

When it fits your agenda, 3 years is enough to conside 'long term esearch.'

are you just upset because the American Academy of Pediatrics took a formal stance that is against your belief and they based it upon their own research they conducted ? oh you poor baby !

ya know, as each day moves forward, you are in an ever shrinking minority, get used to it :)

Research - interesting word. Who DOES research for a particular issue? Most likely someone INTERESTED in that subject. Three years is not enough time to get an accurate analysis, in my opinion. Wait until some of those children brought up in a homosexual household reach their teens, twenties. I have no respect for any organization that makes such assumptions based on such a short length of "research".

So, reading all the posts against believers of the bible, I'm to assume that we all are , "intolerant liberals, stupid, haters, Bible thumpers, homophobes", and homosexual supporters are smart, tolerant (?) loving people, who would NEVER believe in anything they can't see or have personal knowledge of. Does that sound about right? I guess all of you read every scientific text ever written, and have personal knowledge that EVERY scientist is honest, and would never mislead anything they ever publish. Actually, that makes you more gullible than you say we are. We all need to believe in SOMETHING to have motivation, goals, security in our lives. We have our Bible, you have whatever you have. You don't have the right to take ours away from us, any more than we have the right to take anything away from you. Learn that not EVERYBODY is going to agree with you, and you might live a happy life.

Bill

Research - interesting word. Who DOES research for a particular issue? Most likely someone INTERESTED in that subject. Three years is not enough time to get an accurate analysis, in my opinion.

and that is your opinion. as stated by Severed Head in a Jar - "You are apparently unfamiliar with research and statistical methodology."

Wait until some of those children brought up in a homosexual household reach their teens, twenties. I have no respect for any organization that makes such assumptions based on such a short length of "research".

again, read the quote by Severed Head in a Jar.

a lot of these children have reached their teens and twenties, are you foolish enough to believe that there are only young children ?

So, reading all the posts against believers of the bible, I'm to assume that we all are , "intolerant liberals, stupid, haters, Bible thumpers, homophobes",

i didn't say any of those things, if that's what you feel is being said about you - maybe you should look at your words and attitudes to figure out why. instead, you'll just dismiss it as hatred or whatever else your irrational mind can come up with at the moment when you should actually think about how hateful and intolerant it is to condemn and judge a group of citizens while hiding behind an invisible deity whose existence as never been proven except with a book of fairytales that's been written by Man - has multiple versions - and has been edited quite a few times (see Council of Nicaea - ya know, when your religious leaders couldn't figure out their own story and had to vote on which version was best, then edit your bible accordingly) ((which also makes your bible a non-credible source to prove anything, sorry for you luck))

and homosexual supporters are smart, tolerant (?) loving people, who would NEVER believe in anything they can't see or have personal knowledge of.

are you stating they have a more scientific viewpoint ? how is that bad ? how is it bad to have a viewpoint based upon research and facts, actually figuring things out instead of believing in magic and thinking that some invisible deity controls everything ? i guess your way is great - it relieves you from the responsibility of actually having to think logically or figure things out for yourself, instead you can be led like sheep all your lives and live ignorantly in bliss. it is why you and your followers are referred to as a flock, right ?

Does that sound about right? I guess all of you read every scientific text ever written, and have personal knowledge that EVERY scientist is honest, and would never mislead anything they ever publish.

i guess you spoke personally with your god one day over lunch and coffee at a corner cafe in your town, right ? did your god pay the bill and tip the waitress well ? or maybe you've spoken with every author of your bible and its many versions, correct ? ever notice how your bible contradicts itself a lot ? why would the OT be in existence if its null and void ? why would it even be around and still taught if it doesn't apply anymore ? why would it even change and become the NT, i thought your god was unwavering in his viewpoints etc ?

Actually, that makes you more gullible than you say we are.

yes, it makes you very gullible, you have nothing substantial to back up any claims from your book of fairytales.

We all need to believe in SOMETHING to have motivation, goals, security in our lives. We have our Bible, you have whatever you have.

again, we have facts and you have fiction - correct ?

You don't have the right to take ours away from us, any more than we have the right to take anything away from you.

and yet, you are on here with the attitude of homosexuals being wrong and would gladly advocate to deny them the rights to adopt/raise children and even their civil right of getting married. hypocritical much ?

Learn that not EVERYBODY is going to agree with you, and you might live a happy life.

yes, that is my advice to you. leave homosexuals alone, let them have their rights and their lives and stay out of it ! you might actually have a happy life at some point.

anything else ?

surveys and opinions do not fact make.

There is no evidence that is long term to illustrate the agenda that this group is pushing forward. many things they cite, esp of the animal world and cannibalism etc are in error.

If this groups credential is on my kids pediatricians wall, I will find another more credible doctor .

This article is neither science nor physical medicine, and as for the psyc side of it, our country has ignored mental health since Reagan deinstitutionalized the mental patients in America, and there is nothing I would believe. If it can't be cured with a pill its not an illness is the current mindset.

@RCOVIT:

So you base your beliefs on facts? Tell me, do you believe in the God and Bible? Because if you do then you are a complete hipocrit. And by the way not everything can be cured by a pill. How do explain AIDS and HIV? They are illnesses/diseases but can't be cured with a pill....You're a moron who doesn't do the research into medicine and doctors. And have fun finding a "credible" doctor that's "credible" enough for you lol. And way to judge on others beliefs. I'm sure God will give you all the proper "judgements" you deserve if you truely believe in Him :)

I love listening to do you have any idea what divorce does to a child. Do you have any idea what living with two people who cannot be civil to each other does to a child? Many people stay in a marriage because they are so afraid of what a divorce will do to the children and in the end their treatment of each other makes it worse than if they would have divorced.

Then you should go to the Al-Qaeda website...they're chock full of anti-gay and pro-gun stories. You'd fit in just fine with those folks over there. They're God fearing and dumb as a box of dog shi* too. You'll get along just fine.

How about a story which says this:

greatwhiteshark was butchered today by several members of the local Westboro Klansmen Temple. His crime, they said? "He had none, just a wonderful service in the name of God".

You'd use the bible to justify everything you say, you vitriolic piece of trash. The GOP talk about how liberals feel like they deserve "entitlements". Well, can you prove that God "entitled" you white-trash homophobes to rule the world?

Newsflash: You can't. You can't comprehend the will of God anymore than I can. And I can't understand his intentions at all. That's the point of why there's no proof of God, and why there doesn't need to be: he's supposed to be "omnipotent". Meaning no man or beast can understand him unless HE HIMSELF lowers his powers to our level.

As of right now, we have no way of knowing whether he's for or against this move. But obviously, if he can influence fate, he must be on the side of gays - I doubt he'd empower them so heavily otherwise.

How can you tell the difference between the priest and the pedophile?

The Liberal Leftist Leg Humping Main Stream Media is engaged in a relentless campaign to influence the Supreme Court, especially Chief Justice John Roberts. The Supreme Court is debating a Gay Marriage lawsuit and it will be a landmark decision. You have you reliable leftists and rightist on the court but John Roberts has proven to be pliable based upon what he sees and reads in the media. He wants to be liked by the media because it looks good for him. He has a long time to serve before he goes and he wants it to be as comfortable for him in DC as possible. The LLHMS media always tries to INFLUENCE instead of INFORM.

1Rodney--yes, a Supreme Court Justice that doesn't have to worry about reelection worries about 'angering the liberal leftist leg humping main stream media'; kind of like when he voted in favor of Citizens United, against the Medicare expansion, and looks like to vote against Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act. It must ALWAYS be judicial activism and pandering when it doesn't fit YOUR ideology, right?

Matt, my ideology lies within the US Constitution as written amended and intended. The point of lifetime appointments to the Supreme Court was fully intended to make the Justices less influenced by current events and trends and now the never ending news coverage of them and to help focus them on upholding the Constitution as written, amended and intended. The Constitution IS NOT a living and breathing and ever changing document as those on the Left contend. Just like you, I have to live with the decisions made by people I have no control over. I don't like it any more than you. BTW, I see below that you are a Gay man. I myself don't give a hoot whether you get "married" or not to another man. Will you support the right of a man or woman to marry a dog or a horse and have conferred upon them ALL of the same "rights" that you want or would secure?

Matt, my ideology lies within the US Constitution as written amended and intended.

And of course you are the one to determine how it was intended.

I don't think so.

Will you support the right of a man or woman to marry a dog or a horse and have conferred upon them ALL of the same "rights" that you want or would secure?

Sure, just as soon as you can demonstrate how a dog or a horse can give informed consent.

Well...?

1rodney b Your ideology lies within the the US Constitution as written amended and intended. Well it also says all men were created equal. In your interpretation I guess that doesn't mean gay people. I guess it took you a long time to accept that blacks were created equal to.

"kids have a tendancy of being like their parents for a while"

My parents are straight. I'm gay.

There goes your logic.

@Matt that's b/c you are born that way. Re-thinks point is that children are easily influenced. I'll bet it took you a long time to come to grips that you are gay. You probably fondled the thought of being with a woman at some point in your life. The same thing will happen to straight kids being brought up by gay parents. At a young age they are easily influenced so while in the long run they may remain straight, in the short term they may try the 'gay thing' b/c they see their parents doing the same.

Experimentation is one of the many ways of learning. It won't change one's innate sexuality, but can be the path to figuring out what, exactly, it is. Which for some people (like me) is more complicated than "I am attracted to men," or "I am attracted to women."

My parents are straight, and yet, I'm not, and neither is at least one of my siblings.

I suppose fumbling around with confused, conflicted feelings, awkward experimentation, and a combination of embarrassment and fear so great that I couldn't talk to my own family is "the regular way." Heh.

Wonderfully stated, Matt. I think that you seem to be a good person regardless of who you like.

Of course, if the Klansmen GOP had all the power, you'd be torched on a cross for your statement, all while they chant "Holy holy, is the Lord. Peace almighty, to the Lord".

Stuff drives me to nightmares sometimes. As Gandhi says (not so much word for word, but y'know) "I like your Christ, but your Christians look like morons sometimes."

Maybe yall can get a room & sodomize each other until your guts fall out. Don't forget the wet wipes.

the whole gay thing is not about religion,,its about nature!!! what does it take to make a baby? Male & female.... i know some gay couples are wonderful people but they can't make babies!!!!

CrimsonCujo....I don't really think any child suffers from a Family where their parents are same sex. Stability, love and nurturing are the most important gifts shared with any family. However, if you think that ALL GOP supporters are Kansmen (KKK) and are Anti-Gay, you are part of the problem. Get a grip and a real Life.

Male & female.... i know some gay couples are wonderful people but they can't make babies!!!!

My wife had a hysterectomy before we were married. Does that mean we shouldn't have married because we "can't make babies?"

@Moderate in Madison: You are free to prove me wrong. I've yet to see a GOP supporter who could treat a gay person with respect. Which, btw, my own parents are part of that group (LGBTs, that is).

And just a note: If you think they are inferior beings that need to be corralled and exterminated, then I would sooner lop your head off with a @!$%#in' machete than to live in a world where you dictate how they live their lives.

I am glad to see there are so many that accept this delusion compare themselves to the animal kingdom, because they certainly are not on the human level and nowhere near the Godly level. If anyone thinks they can be a christian and homosexual they are decieving themselves, it is no different than being a liar and claiming to be Honest. Reality is in relation to animals acting like gays, they only mock the act, they don't actually do it. The minds of people who believe these hideous acts with their bodies is ok are captives of the one that possess their souls, the enemy, satan. I know that is a hard thing to except when you don't know your creator, but the fact and truth is people today love darkness more than light. All this corruption is bringing on the destruction of this world and when it does it will be too late. The devastion of what is coming will subside the fleshly desires that this sinfulness is provoking from a mighty God. These organizations that are corrupting innocent children are putting blood on their hands that they will be accountable for, and I don't care that you may mock me, for my comment here. But it is the truth. All those who call Christians names are no different than those that crucified our Lord, but he is alive and dwells in my heart, and I am not writing hate of man, but of the sinfulness that is being brought to our land and to the hearts of children that we are responsible to bring up in the way that they should go according to scripture. Children's souls are not for sale, all these gays buying babies to raise in their perverted lifestyles are pediphiles and it sickens me that these rotten judges give them over to them.

God made our bodies the way he did for a reason, not to pervert them, men are designed the way they are to be compatible with a woman to reproduce naturally, that is why it wasn't a sin for Adam and Eve to be naked, until they sinned by taking the forbidden fruit. The world doesn't accept God for righteousness because it is more pleasing to satisfy the flesh than to resist sin. Adultry and fornication are still sins, and homosexulaity is an abomination, like it or not.

@savedin - And how the hell do you know that? Did you actually meet God and have him tell you that himself? If so, I'd like you to show me a photo of when you met God. Because I think your statement is a load of bull.

Also, the way Christians say "In the name of the Lord I ask you to (insert request here) is the same thing as magic. It's like saying that a Satanist is incapable of being anything more than evil, because he worships the devil and thus goes against the true way of the world.

My own mother may be in love with another woman, but I am born of the same union you were - a man and a woman. And even I can see that you pervert the truth for your own good, you sheet-wearing bastard.

God made man and woman the way they are, sure, but I wonder: does that mean that women are the inferior sex, since God said that "women are ruled by their husbands" (which is in Genesis, btw - further proof I actually read the Bible)?

I loate the misogynistic morons who think that a woman's only purpose is to be used as a breeding sac - and that hetero males are the superior race, ordained by God and entitled to rule the world because he said so.

yeah savedino8 how the hell do you know? i agree did God come down and talk to you personally? or do you just believe the things written in your book (which by the way was written by man, not God). you are judging and discriminating. therefore if you truely believe in God, you will go to hell for that lol congratulations for trying to do God's work yourself!!

I agree with everything you said, but I have no idea what it has to do with gays.

I think straight couples with their skyrocketing divorce rates are destroying the traditional family all by themselves. They don't need help from us evil gays.