OCS barracks. Perhaps some wannabe who can't take washing out? Was the victim an instructor, or another candidate? I will have to watch for an update to see if I'm anywhere near correct. Unlike some posters, I enjoy seeing others make unfounded guesses on no real information, also. Some of them are crazy. Some of them turn out to be at least close. So let it rip.:) Lets just not deteriorate to politics.

I'm so very sorry to see something like this happen. Our military personnel should not have to worry about someone who should have their back or their own people.

I hope they take this goon out unlike the other goon who languishes over whether or not he needs a shave before he goes back to court.

Oh, well gollygeewillikers. Guess what I really need to do is be more careful around the post police. In other words...

There's very little news here on this tragedy except that there is a SHOOTER loose on a military base that has killed someone and barricaded themselves. Honest. Here's what the article said:

One person was killed in a shooting at the Marine base Quantico, Va. Thursday night, officials told NBC News.The shooting was reported at around 11 p.m. Prince William County and military police responded to the scene.A suspect is believed to be isolated in the barrack of the Officer Candidate School campus and the base is in lockdown, Lt. Agustin Solivan told NBC News.

Which would at least have me to believe that this guy might try and shoot again. In which case, military police might shoot back. Imagine that!!! And when I tried to find news on this from other sources, there wasn't much more than there is here. And guess what...I STILL HOPE THAT THEY TAKE THE SOB OUT.

Have a nice day!!!

Hey Denny, did you read the article, before you made your unfounded guess? "adding that the assailant was believed to be a staff member at the school."

Chefaz, you obviously didn't read the article, because the shooter committed suicide.

Gregory, obviously you didn't see the timeline #1.5 - Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:49 AM EDT or read my entire post including the section quoted from the article or notice Den's timeline, either. Article has been updated since it was first published.

This story was originally published on Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:17 AM EDT

NoLiberty, I suggest you bone up on things before you put yourself on the line to much. You been nowhere and do nothing Trolls don't realize Rules and Laws of War. If YOU wear his clothes, Eat his food, Shoot and Plan to kill me, American or not YOU"RE going to Freaking Die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlawful_combatant

Baldenerio: You seem to be fixated on someone being gay when there was nothing to indicate that. Why? Also since this was two men and a woman dead and a man was the shooter, explain your conclusion?

How do you know it was all men? freudian slip buddy.

It was a man and a woman. Sounds like a lovers triangle to me.

One of those, if I can't have her (or him?), no one will. type.

Gordono, No one said anything about a black man in the White House, or the Republican party (other than you of course). Stay on topic.

Sheesh, what a bunch of CHILDISH posts. No, I take that back, children are much more frigging matter than you first few posters. Let's see personal attacks on Chefaz, mouthing off about republicans, so idiot bitching about gays for no reason. Bringing up that HALF black man in the white house, again for no reason, then add some more personal attacks and abbreviated cuss words. I'll print mine completely out. GROW THE @!$%# UP!!!! People have died tonight, tragically. A town was put in fear of a crazed gun man. With events that have occurred in past months, a scary notion indeed!!!! There will be family members getting notified that their loved ones have been MURDERED and another that their loved one has killed himself. Yet all you jerk offs don't care about that because it's way TOO MUCH fun to be haters, name callers and @!$%#s to each other!!!!!! Again, GROW THE @!$%# UP!!!!!!! aND HEY...take some courses in reading comprehension. Pretty much none of you got the facts of the reports right and some made ridiculous embellishments. Really, people get a damned life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Love triangle gone bad. Olive Oil couldn't make up her mind, and left both of them dangling in front of each other. Nothing to see here folks...move along.

Hey Gordona, can you comment about this event or just plain avoid the discussion? You seem to want to now drag politics, Operation Iraqi Freedom, and climate change into a situation that has nothing to do with it. How about a shooting event occurred at USMC Officer's Canidate School. Read some more books about the Middle East before sending those rounds down range. Side note: 6 months during the time the UN inspectors were refused to be granted access to key Iraqi sites, there were hundreds of vehicle traffic moving at night from the same locations heading towards the Syrian border. In 2001 the Syrian military had limited WMD capabilities by 2012 it was the most stocked of WMDs in the entire region. Was that all Saddam's DVD collection or maybe his wardrobe that was being shipped to Assad? Please do yourself a favor and read the number of books out there that are published and don't think by watching Matt Damon in the "Green Zone" that wraps up the WMD case.

@ kaybeetoys: The military is just a smaller version of our own society. The military is not fool proof nor are we immune to having "bad eggs" in the mix. 10 years of on-going deployments, combat loss, high divorce rate, PTSD issues, and now discussions of cutting veteran and military benefits leaves many in the services thinking. I think the American public needs to re-exam it's attitude or concerns for the small minority of individuals who have been on the front lines for years. While America was at the mall the rest of us were overseas. During that time, countless would be terrorist and wanna be jihadist didnt make it to the US shores but ended up being buried in Iraq and Afghanistan. So while it is tragic that we have individuals wearing the uniform who commit such acts as rape and murder, it is not common nor is it viewed as "okay" by fellow servicemembers. 10 years of war and somewhere somehow some of us reach a breaking point. But before we start judging the reasons why this happen we need to get more facts about who, what, and causes for some Marine to shoot two of his fellow Marine comrades. There is more to this than someone got mad and decided to open fire on his buddies.

Sounds like a love triangle. Too bad it happened at a Marine base.

10 years of war and somewhere somehow some of us reach a breaking point. But before we start judging the reasons why this happen we need to get more facts about who, what, and causes for some Marine to shoot two of his fellow Marine comrades. There is more to this than someone got mad and decided to open fire on his buddies.

Exactly, Mac, which is why we need to thoroughly examine our military culture. We need to ask ourselves if training our impressionable young men to kill innocent Iraqi and Afghani civilians was really such a good idea.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11. Most of Afghanistan had nothing to do with it either. The Shrub took his eye off the ball and we are still paying for it.

If you republicants would not be so stubborn, obama's gun ban would have prevented this. It's all Bush's fault!!!! /rolls eyes /sarcasm off

Seriously, this really is a shame and I am deeply saddened

Probably more gay stuff, really . . .

Really! :-o

Well, Baldenario, from the story...

The assailant and both victims, a man and a woman, were staff members at the school and not students, a senior defense official said.

Reading not your strong suit, eh? Or do you just have gay fantasies in your head, and need to project them onto others?

Dream on.

This clearly demonstrates that the military needs to be banned from guns!

We need our Dear Leader to sign Executive Orders today!

Why do the military need guns anyway? People just get hurt with guns!!

,

[dumbass liberals]

.

More evidence that it's not the guns folks. Mental issues are a much bigger problem than the inanimate object ever will be.

gordona

Off your meds today? Why the personal attack on Chefaz? Your hatred and bitterness is quite apparent, while chefaz is not.

Barry, stop with the photo op in Israel and do something about your followers mental health issues!!

Mac-295039...thank you for the most coherent, well thought out post on this topic; its amazing what little KNOWLEDGE and rational thought can do.

@Kaybee

So America is nothing but a military culture. WOW and simply an unbelievable statement

"Why officers hesitated before entering the barracks remained unclear Friday morning."

Because they didn't want to end up on the pile too?

Like the Binghamton, NY Cicic Asociation shooting a few years ago - nobody has a duty to defend you but you.

Kay bee-

Exactly, Mac, which is why we need to thoroughly examine our military culture. We need to ask ourselves if training our impressionable young men to kill innocent Iraqi and Afghani civilians was really such a good idea.

First, our military is not training anyone to target and kill innocent civilians. That is not what we do. Does it happen at times, absolutely. Never during combat did I hear someone say, "let's kill us some civies."

Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9-11. Most of Afghanistan had nothing to do with it either. The Shrub took his eye off the ball and we are still paying for it.

Yes, blame only one party to demonstrate your idiocy. Both parties are equally responsible. Your team is no better than the other.

@ kaybeetoys:

9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan, OBL, The Taliban, Pakistan Intelligence support, Wahhabism doctrine, Saudi Arabian support for Pakistan Islamic studies, etc.... There is a lot of information pertaining to each of these subjects and some criss cross over to the other side. I do not say, "This had nothing to do with that..." because in some cases it actually either supported the idea or provided direct assistance towards the other. But this is the wrong thread to discuss world geo-political strategic studies like Iraq vs 9/11 issues. Although Saddam was not favored by OBL due to Saddam's tolerance of non-Islamic traditions allowed in pre-2003 Iraq, he did not have any issue with Saddam supporting terrorist cells operating against Israel nor did Saddam have any issues with Ansar Al Islam a known Al Qadia backed organization operating along the Iranian/Iraq border. He allowed AI to conduct attacks against the Kurdish Democratic Party (KDP) and the PUK since both Kurdish groups sought independence from Saddam and Saddam used AI to carry out large scale attacks against these Kurdish political and para-military organizations. 9/11 was mostly Saudi nationals backed by AQ which had a safe haven in Afghanistan. We had chances to take out OBL since 1994 but we didn't.

Ask a servicemember how he/she may feel as we see benefits being cut to military personnel, insurance going up for veterans, tution being removed for active duty, and stupid cuts within the DOD budget. I mean the US Army has requested a 33% reduction of active duty personnel. The American public had no clue to the situation overseas unless they had someone directly related or friend. Iraq and Afghanistan was just something they watched on the TV or had a tear moment when they see some reunion at school on the Today Show and say, "Aww how sweet." We as a society need to re-exam to what full measure are we willing to go when we send large contingent of troops into harms way? It was shown as a side show in the states but when I was in Iraq it was far from "pleasant". In Iraq the thought of the US was as far as a distance as if I had been on Mars looking at the Earth. Like I said before the military was at war while the American people were at the mall. Majority supported the troops but had little to no real understanding what the situation on the ground was unless you had direct access to someone who had been there. No disrespect but after 10 years "later" I am not resentful or feel that OIF was a total waste nor was it "pointless". There are thousands of terrorist who ventured all across the world to fight in the "great jihad" as it was sometimes called and go to Iraq to kill any and all Americans. Some of those wanna be OBL fans who didnt make it back to the European Union, Russia, Central Europe, and various parts of East Central Asia may have ended up here in the states. I did not make the foreign policy, I just followed orders and attempted to make the most out of a bad situation.

It's funny how many people were such smug a-holes to the first few posters about not knowing how to read, when in fact it was the smug dicks that didn't seem to understand, apparently still don't, that the story had been updated. Don't you guys feel stupid now?

I also like how kaybee tried to pretend to have a rational thought out post, when the whole ponit of it was to blame Bush..again. The mind of a lefty really is an enigma.

Btw kaybee, the recent problems in the military are not Bush's fault, they are the PC police's fault. Equal rights are why there has been an increase with these issues. You will not find the same problems in a homogenized military, but a stable military is not important to the left, pretend fairness is.

Mac - great posts.

Hummmmm ~~~Would the ban on assault weapons helped prevent this homicide? ~~~~ NO

Would a ban on assault weapons have stopped this killing? ~~~~ No

Would a amendment to the US Constitution banning weapons of any kind in the hands of private citizens have prevented the death of these three people? .... NO

This was a crime of passion .. it's happened for since man crawled out of the caves, first with a rock and progressing with every weapon man has invented since then ... and will continue until the end of time.

Actually Steven B, the military has stringent gun control laws on base, that's why it was so easy for Hassan to go Jihadi out at Ft Hood, no one in the building had the means to shoot back. Way back in the 80s privately owned firearms weren't allowed in the barracks. I never lived in on post housing, so I don't know about the officers' quarters. Even as an officer, any weapon that I wanted to take on base had to be registered with range control and listed on my range card. Enlisted who lived on post had to keep their personal weapons and ammo locked in the arms room with the M16s and other unit weapons. Good luck accessing those on a weekend. We had to inventory the locker they were kept in routinely and the owners would have to come in and sign them out. The arms room was kept locked at any time that an armorer or myself wasn't in there. IF you could get past the padlocked steel gate, the padlocked and dead bolted steel plated door, AND had the code for the alarm system, if it was outside of normal business hours, you'd get a call from the MPs asking who you were and WTF you were doing in the arms room after hours. You had better be on the approved access list or they'd come pay you a visit. The keys for the arms room were kept in a cabinet at the battalion headquarters building and under constant watch. When it comes right down to it, a military base, other than a coast guard installation, has one of the highest concentration of unarmed individuals in the country. NYC being the worst.

First, our military is not training anyone to target and kill innocent civilians. That is not what we do. Does it happen at times, absolutely. Never during combat did I hear someone say, "let's kill us some civies."

Have you forgotten Abu Ghraib? I haven't. How about My Lai?

The military covers up atrocities whenever they can... sometimes we get the truth.

Yes, blame only one party to demonstrate your idiocy. Both parties are equally responsible. Your team is no better than the other.

Bush called himself The Decider. I blame ANYONE who was stupid enough to go along with him. For pity's sake, you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to know what a DUMB idea it was to attack Iraq.

Seventeen of the 19 9-11 hijackers were Saudis.

I swear most of you are IDIOTS, plain and simple. Just can't fix STUPID .... :-)

waaa waaa waaa The right wingers are crying again. you guys can turn a bake off into a political argument.

You must have issues reading, the only political attacks were made by lefties. Ok one joke I skipped over about drones. but still your idiotic rant was unfounded.

honestdebate, before you let Bush-N-Em off the hook altogether as it relates to the declining condition of our military and military personnel, I will remind you that it was Bush-N-Em who lowered the standards for those enlisting to include people with prior convictions and prison time, along with the unprecedented move of redeploying our servicemen/women to such a degree that it has never before occurred in war time. So, make sure you factor that into Bush-N-Em's "war policy" before you give them their undeserved kudos. Just saying. . . .

@ MarkusBWolf:

I thank you for your support but I am just speaking my own opinion. This is based on having 18 years of military service, three combat tours in Iraq (would have been more but I was injured in Baghdad and forced to take a medical early retirement). I was a Senior NCO and lead troops in the field. I have a shirt that says, "Been there and Done that". The orders said "Iraq" and I went. I don't blame anyone, I don't blame Bush jr, I don't blame the American people. We thought we had the best intentions but every best written plan goes to pooh the minute the troops cross the berm. If you want a get an idea about Iraq I strongly recommend watching "Generation Kill". Rough humor and language but it is "spot on" as far as my time in Iraq when the war first kicked off.

asknreceive - Because you started a post with 'Bush-N-Em' made your post not worth reading. Not sure if that is suppose to be a clever dig or something, but it isn't. When you open a post declaring you are a petty child, you also declare your post irrlevant.

Have you forgotten Abu Ghraib? I haven't. How about My Lai?

That's like equating baking soda to be all that's in a cake.

If you want to play that game. Was a D or R president in 1968? Again, you're blinded by your party politics.

The military covers up atrocities whenever they can... sometimes we get the truth.

Very good point. Let's start with recent events like Benghazi and then we can work back through others. Benghazi is still fresh and evidence easier to find.

Bush called himself The Decider. I blame ANYONE who was stupid enough to go along with him. For pity's sake, you didn't have to be a rocket scientist to know what a DUMB idea it was to attack Iraq.

Seventeen of the 19 9-11 hijackers were Saudis.

You can start by blaming those on your team who voted in favor. Partial list below. So that we're clear, I am a fan of getting out of the ME altogether.

Bayh (D-IN)
Biden (D-DE)
Breaux (D-LA)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Daschle (D-SD)
Dodd (D-CT)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Harkin (D-IA)

Hollings (D-SC)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Miller (D-GA)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Schumer (D-NY)
Torricelli (D-NJ)

@ kaybeetoys:

What cover up was conducted concerning Abu detention facility? The US Army held it's own internal investigation prior to the pictures being released to the general public. What the DOD did request is a temporary halt on showing the pictures until the final assessments were completed. We didn't say never show these pictures we said "can you please wait until we get all the information." Before anyone discussed the pictures serious questions were being discussed within various levels of the DOD. Also, know this the press released the pictures to make the story and get the headlines which set off a firestorm within the Middle East and it placed serious danger for the units that were no manning those positions at Abu Gharib that had nothing to do with those clueless few individuals. Mistakes happen in war. Do you think that during WW2 or Korea that mistakes were not mad? While horrorific for those Iraqi prisoners none of the individuals photographed died in prison. That is not the case for a number of captured US military personnel and unarmed contractors that fell into the hands of Al Qaida of Iraq or some splinter insurgent cells. You watch enough of the beheading videos to know that while tragic as Abu was for us as a military it was by no means the manner that the enemy treated captured personnel. There was no "cover-up" concerning Abu Gharib. I personally spoke to two of the investigating Officer while I was in Iraq back in 2004. Several Senior Officers lost their position and basically their military carrer due to being assigned to that area during the time of the abuse. Some had no clue as to what happened but were placed as scarifices to ensure public/international opinion was shifted away. Several of the individuals who did the abuse were already under arrest or awaiting their process under the UCMJ. Abu cost us many lives since after those pictures were released without any follow up without any counter point to lessen the damage ensured that countless jihadist flocked to that grid square and increased the night time attacks against it. Mortar and rocket attacks went from a few every week to sometimes 50 to 60 shells hitting the complex in a few short minutes. US personnel were lost as well as Iraqis who were waiting to be investigated. Al Jazeria and Al Arabiya media outlets allowed and promoted false claims which only caused more anger directed at the US military. Responsible journalism was non-exsistent when it came to Iraq it was more along the lines "make it up as you go and run with it" "fact checking" was a by-gone idea. I was there in Baghdad on Camp Victory and went to Abu almost every other day to discuss investigations after the pictures were released. We had nothing to do with the abuse but we did suffer for those few individuals stupidity.

Thanks for your service, Mac, but please do acknowledge that your military perspective may have influenced your viewpoint considerably.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

You write as if the only problem with Abu Graib was that it came to light. What about Rumsfeld? He was never held accountable.

Iraq was a mistake. Don't discount all of the Americans who knew that beforehand.

atlas

Very good point. Let's start with recent events like Benghazi and then we can work back through others. Benghazi is still fresh and evidence easier to find.

Just pointing out, you didn't work your way back from Benghazi. You scared you wouldn't have the time to point out all the things between 2001 and 2008? As far a Benghazi goes, I see you didn't list the repugs that voted to cut the security funding for places like that, twice, before that happened. Don't they make you proud?

Thanks for your service, Mac, but please do acknowledge that your military perspective may have influenced your viewpoint considerably.

I'm thinking I'll consider the well thought out responses that Mac has set forward, most likely from following the stories intimately. Over the "opinion" of an MSNBC parrot (the station of 85% opinion), no offense.

Iraq was a mistake. Don't discount all of the Americans who knew that beforehand.

Yea Monday morning quarterbacking is a talent.

Apple Pie and Mom....and guns... 88 deaths DAILY in the good ol' USA from gunshots....18 deaths by gunshot in ALL of 2012 in Great Britain

@ kaybeetoys:

I agree, that is why I said in previous comments that my responses were based from my own perspective which is the military view. But my job was geared to thinking outside the box so my viewpoint was not just limited to knocked the door down and tossing in a hand grenade and then ask "is there anything I can do for you, here is an Orange Fanta soda for your troubles.." I do not discount your concern, feelings, or anger about the previous administration or the war. I have not been rude to your responses nor would I even if you were angered about what I wrote, all I ask is that we hear each other out. Sec of Def Rumsfield was out of my immediate chain of command and I never met the man. If Congress or the Senate said he should have stood trail then so be it. I mean McNamara was not held in contempt during his tenure during the Vietnam War and serious mistakes were made on various levels. I mean how far do you go up the chain when an event like that takes place? Rumsfield didnt write the procedures for counterintelligence methods nor did he write the field manual on the "Law of Warfare" which was still based on the 1954 version. If you want to blame Rumsfield then blame him attempting to invade Iraq on the cheap. I blame him for not going into Iraq with a 5 to 1 ratio of troop strength. Had we had that ratio we would have not left our lines of communication and logistics open for constant attacks. We would have been able to secure Baghdad after the fall of Saddam and prevented the mass looting and rioting which began and lasted for several days of complete lawlessness. We were just under-strength to conduct military and law enforcement operations at the same time. I also blame Bremmer for the complete and total utter failure of the "De-Ba'athification Program" which basically fired the majority of former Iraqi military personnel, law enforcement, and government officials overnight. A broke, disheartened, but heavily armed former military population soon found themselves on the payroll of various insurgent groups who had a ton of cash but needed trained military servicemembers to use the vast amount of looted Iraqi arms rooms and ammo supply points.

Good Christ! The dumbing down of America shows her ugly face today. How many of you ignorant idiots even read the story before you commented? Clearly the first commentor Baldenario never made it to the 2nd paragraph, by declaring that it was probably gays. When in fact the victims were male & female.

Baldenario nice job leading the herd. Dumbass.

70% of people that live in London are not English. London has a crime problem. The police in Scotland still do not carry weapons unless you are a detective or SWAT member. They will soon.

Good Christ! The dumbing down of America shows her ugly face today. How many of you ignorant idiots even read the story before you commented? Clearly the first commentor Baldenario never made it to the 2nd paragraph, by declaring that it was probably gays. When in fact the victims were male & female.

Is he the dumbass, or is it the guy that isn't capable of realizing that the story got updated?

Apple Pie and Mom....and guns... 88 deaths DAILY in the good ol' USA from gunshots....18 deaths by gunshot in ALL of 2012 in Great Britain

I agree, we should ban all guns from the military. that'll work out swell for us. Bore them into submission with leftwing talking points, make them watch Schultz, Matthews and Maddow over and over.

We should probably ban guns in the Marine Corp too...(sarcasm) F*cking liberals!

Exactly Ebeneser Howard, exactly!

No Vetrans administration college ect for our troops or vetrans-Cause the Illegals wouldnt get enough free stuff to get them to vote democrat.

No Vetrans administration college ect for our troops or vetrans-Cause the Illegals wouldnt get enough free stuff to get them to vote democrat.

Steamie:

The first few posters posted those responses before the article was updated, when it was still 'breaking news' and the only thing that was reported was that people had died. Look at the timestamps.

We should ban guns in the military and from military personnel.

reading alot of these posts ...I have come to the conclusion we are one brain dead country and that goes along way toward explaining why were in the bad place we are currently at in this era in this great nation ???....maybe some of you should reread the junk you post....some of it is outright ridiculously stupid !!!!!!...BTW there is nothing political about this tragic event or really about the USMC , Muslims , the war or gays.. it could have happened anywhere or even had been civilians , it just happened to be Marines(they're human beings ya' know too) at a USMC facility....DUH !!!...maybe some of you watch to much TV and form opinions to easily from watching shows and news stations like NCIS or MSNBC , CNN & FOX ? instead of really THINKING...I know for some of you logical thinking might hurt brain cells and give you headaches though

A love triangle gone awry in the midst of armed professional trained killers.

Seeing how quickly a relationship between lovers can turn sour, I don't think that it is wise to have a co-ed army, navy, or air force. At the very least, dating within the same unit should be forbidden.

I really can't believe this America just lost 3 Marines, 2 American Sons and 1 American Daughter, 2 of OUR American Brothers and 1 of OUR American Sisters and some of the comments are not only rude but effing STUPID and IGNORANT as well.

I DON"T need to know the details to offer my condolences to the Families and Friends of the deceased. They ARE MARINES and this is tragic. For the record I am glad that the shooter chose to take his own life instead of hurting anyone else.

The personal attacks against Chefaz are way over the top. Posted by ignorant, uninformed JackA$$s that can't tell time any better than they can read.

Regards,

Brandon The Progressive Liberal

BTW- Morning Chef and Fed :) I would say Good Morning but between the tragic loss of life and the tragic loss of decency, manners and good sense I can't bring myself to do it. My 12 and 13 year old little brothers are reading this and are shocked and ashamed as they were raised better.

I had a gut feeling before reading the article and comments that some ignorant people would somehow manage to make it a muslim or gay issue. But then I said to myself, "Nah, give people more credit than that, this is a terrible tragedy and nobody really knows what happened."

Baldenario

Probably more gay stuff, really . . .

Really! :-o

mike-2598123

lets do a better job doing background checks on accepting Muslims into the marines !

Whether it's from conditioning or they're just bad, evil people, I'm not sure but it's ignorant and a disgrace. I feel sorry for your parents.

liam.............you must be thinking of chicago or detroit or nyc or camden or any other DEMOCRAP run city. You know, where gun control is the rule!! Real safe, hugh?

More idiotic post from kaybee.

You act as if the US is the only nation whose military has aggression issues. Its been happening for centuries all over the world occasionally but we deal with it as best we can. You have a twisted perspective because you have never served and dont understand the purpose of a military. You expect soldiers to carry flowers and blow kisses.

You talk as if Iraq didnt kill hundreds of thousands of Kurds and Iranians with chemical weapons, which BTW is a WMD! Interesting that Syria suddenly had all these chemical weapons just after we invaded and is now using them on their own population, hmmmm.

Unlike some posters, I enjoy seeing others make unfounded guesses on no real information, also. Some of them are crazy. Some of them turn out to be at least close.

And some of them turn into the dumbest bunch of conspiracy nonsense we have the misfortune to read.

honestdebate,

My question to you Mr copy & paste, is: Are you the dumb ass? Yeah the story was updated. But before the story was updated, we already knew that the 2 victims were male & female. D'oh! What a waste of trolling space. You copy & paste dweeb.

@Kaybee and Gordona

Really Iraq? Don't read and question much if you think WMDs are the only reason that we went in. Plus with Saddam's history of USING chemical weapons and such it is a valid concern. Calling former President of the United States "Shrub", some other PANSY says "Bush n Em" like they are clever. Which US Presidents (and what -ahem-"Enlightened" polital party did he belong to) brilliant idea was it in 1998 to Bomb,Bomb,Bomb Iraq (actually Missiles) and WHY ?

Hey I can be cute and clever too: Great Job Brownie RUDE RETARDS.

Your Ignorance is in your Arrogance.

Subdue the latter and you will correct the former. (at least it can't hurt)

Regards,

Brandon The Progressive Liberal

@ Mac ....First THANK YOU FOR DEFENDING OUR GREAT NATION (adopted by choice by me ex communism victim) and YOU are the reason I'm reading this posts to have an intellectual comments an point of view of current events .I did not serve in the military, neither family members ,but I bow to you and others who did serve and are serving mine and my family gratitude to you sir and all others .May my God all mighty give you a special recognition for have me and my family live in secure land of opportunity .

I'm so tired of those who sit on the couch all day (thanks to media other wise they could be doing something ) some I see regularly first one commenting at every story with hate and stupidity .My question is,when do they work ?.......criticize without limits the gov. the military etc. I suggest to those unhappy with your gov. give up your citizenship trade places with many that would appreciate this great country and it's military any time you decide..... let me know or just travel a little .I will give the country name where to go and see what a really corrupt and miserable life you can live .

I'm thinking I'll consider the well thought out responses that Mac has set forward, most likely from following the stories intimately. Over the "opinion" of an MSNBC parrot (the station of 85% opinion), no offense.

It's a free country and you're entitled to your opinion but I'm no parrot. I lived for many years in the Middle East in more than one country, during wartime, so perhaps my opinion should be treated with consideration here too?

Yea Monday morning quarterbacking is a talent.

There were plenty of Americans, myself included, who were against the war in Iraq from the outset.

I do not discount your concern, feelings, or anger about the previous administration or the war. I have not been rude to your responses nor would I even if you were angered about what I wrote, all I ask is that we hear each other out.

I in turn appreciate your perspective and experience (why ignore any piece of the puzzle?) and your willingness (rather rare these days) to conduct a civil discussion.

If you want to blame Rumsfield then blame him attempting to invade Iraq on the cheap.

I do! Rumsfeld and his cohorts royally screwed up, prolonging the war and killing more U.S. military and Iraqi civilians than a competent leader would have done. Has he ever been held to account?

There will never be a perfect military, but I believe we do recognize where some improvements can be made. And who better to make them than someone like you who knows the military from the inside?

A question: would you advise your children to pursue a military career?

My question to you Mr copy & paste, is: Are you the dumb ass? Yeah the story was updated. But before the story was updated, we already knew that the 2 victims were male & female. D'oh! What a waste of trolling space. You copy & paste dweeb.

No they didn't know that you twit

One person was killed in a shooting at the Marine base Quantico, Va. Thursday night, officials told NBC News.The shooting was reported at around 11 p.m. Prince William County and military police responded to the scene.A suspect is believed to be isolated in the barrack of the Officer Candidate School campus and the base is in lockdown, Lt. Agustin Solivan told NBC News.

Somebody already posted that from the original story. You should learn to read. You are great with petty name calling, but aside from that, not worthy of much else.

Sorry if I copy what people say so they know what I am referring to, what a jerk I am.

@Mac, I do hope you will write your experiences / observations down and have them published. You definitely have a best seller in the making.

Marsrover:

They were staff, and this was a military officer's school. According to this report, they weren't students. If indeed this was a triangle gone wrong, rules about dating within a unit would not apply.

Now, per the UCMJ, fraternization between two individuals with different rank/pay grade is expressly and explicitly forbidden, and violation of that rule comes with penalties as court-martial offenses.Those of same rank/pay grade aren't forbidden but there is an implicit understanding that the individuals fraternizing will not allow it to affect work or the unit, and irregardless of how it turns out, the individuals are expected at all times to comport themselves with dignity and restraint, as befits a representative member of the US military. Failure to do so also subjects the individual(s) to court-martial.

wonder if that evil M4 assault rifle got out and murdered those 2 marines on its own ,or did it have a affair with that other evil marine who pulled its trigger??

Amanda - unfortunately we know it is human nature to think you can get away with things, rules be damned. I would have to assume triangle, merely because it is most obvious assumption. It could be many things though.

But I doubt the rules stop people, even in the military.

honestdebate,

Actually you should be called ~dishonest mass debator ~ because of your narrow mind right wing slant. When the story broke My Prince William County Police declared a man and women dead just after 11pm last night. BEFORE THE STORY WAS UPDATED. You dumbass! As I pointed out that the 1st comment was an idiot for declaring it a gay thing. I declare you an dipsh!t because that's what you are. Reply to every comment that you don't like Troll.

Good thing he didn't have a hammer, the whole base would be dead....

Wow steamie, I feel like I upset a child.

I'm so proud of your PWCP, maybe they should have alerted NBC so NBC could have been up-to-date. I'm not sure if you are intelligent enough to understand this, but this is an NBC article, so the information that people got from the NBC article was the information they had at the time. So unfortunately for those people, they were limited by the knowledge given to them.

Do you understand all this or is it a little over your head?

Tired -

I'd say you are onto something, but I'm afraid Bloomberg may take you seriously and propose it.

You said

When the story broke My Prince William County Police declared a man and women dead just after 11pm last night.

CNN said

He said "quick" police reaction helped resolve the situation, first reported at 10:30 p.m. via an emergency call. Soon, security was heightened and a mass notification was issued throughout the base. Base restrictions were lifted a few hours later.

and

Law enforcement officials entered the barracks two hours later and discovered the shooter dead, apparently of a self-inflicted wound. The female victim was in the room with him, fatally shot.

So I guess you were the only person that knew there was a female killed at 11pm. Since you're omniscient perhaps you should let us all in on the motive.

BTW, isn't there school today?

Sex, money or power the root of everything. Guy, kills lady and gentleman. Look like love triangle. But it could be over them reporting him that makes them (hotlips and frank) or just two good people who were just doing there duty. Look like he needed reported.

I don't see gay or Muslim any where.

More legal gun owners self-exterminating.....(they did pry the gun from his cold dead hands like he wanted.....right?)

Dickweed, you need to lighten up and get over yourself. I'm laughing so hard, I'm choking on snot bubbles.

I'm retired. What's your excuse for trolling the newsvine nonstop? With your name, Bingo! I'd bet you are one of those people from the Top 10 Federal Aid Red States, who bitches about Obama while waiting for your food stamps.

@ kaybeetoys:

I encourage all Americans to voice their ideas and opinions that was one reason I joined the military back in 1990. My back is cracked from an Iraqi 82mm mortar shell and when I returned from 2004-2005 tour I was told that I had a tumor in my brain. No history of tumors in my family just bad luck of the draw. I came home to a wife who left me and took my three boys. I could have sought the bottle and let my carrer go to hell in a hand basket but I chose to lead from the front which is what we tell our junior NCOs to instill in their junior servicemembers. Adversity and pain is a part of life. I do not have any disagreement with what you say because in this country you have the right to say it and a right to express it.

Would I encourage my sons to join the military service? Yes. My oldest son has taken a point to let me know that he wants to carry on the tradition of selfless service and maintain watch over a country that he loves to be a part of. He wants to serve and I will support him. If he wanted to be a car salesman I would support him if he wanted to be a teacher I would support him, if he tells me he is gay I would support him. Being a parent my job is to provide the best courses of action for my kids to chose and allow them to make their own choice. To instruct, guide, and teach is my goals. I think we have lost some of the older generations ways as "your word is your bond". My father took that phrase seriously and if you lied to him there was no way getting that trust back. I attempt to lead my sons in this world with the idea that we are not perfect and as a nation we have made mistakes. I could review one side of history and make it look like the US was the most imperialistic country known to man or I could show one side where we were always on the right side of justices, but that is not the case and we make mistakes as people. But I have instilled the idea of knowing your history and know where you come from in order to know where you need to go. One son wants to join the service one son wants to be a police officer and the other wants to get into computers. My goal is that they become well spoken men who mean what they say and say what they mean. It is sad for me for which there has been many a nights where I have cried a little at the times that I missed with them while I was away. But they knew I was there for them and even now my oldest has told me that he understands that to serve in the military you have to be willing to scarifice the time and would be memories from the ones that you cherish and love the most. It is never easy to walk down the terminal and wave goodbye to your loved ones just as it is never easy for loved ones to wave goodbye not knowing if this is the last time they will see them again.

General Sherman made the most distinct statement about war and warfare in general when the mayor of Atlanta begged him to stop the city from buring to the ground..."War is cruelty you cannot redefine it" I have not sheltered my sons to the horror of war, if he joins then I support him and he knows what he is getting into. I won't lie to him he deserves to know that it is not pleasant to see a buddy go down and get killed nor was it pleasant for me to walk among dead Iraqi civilians who had been tortured by insurgents for their beliefs in the "wrong version of Islam". Nothing more horrorific to have a mother hand you a child and beg you to save the child and you have no ability to stop death which is going to happen in a very short time.

I too have been in the Middle East and I know a few things about the differences between religion, Islam, culture, life/death, etc. I am not an expert but I did witness a thing or two while there.

Takenaka-

Ban liberals

ban anti-gun people

@ luke

You need to go to the nearest mental health facility and get checked in, pronto

@ PJB7689:

Thank you for your kind words. I attempted to write my stories of my experiences down and sent a rough draft to a person in the publishing company but was told, "this is not that good". So I just figured no one would want or care to read the stuff. So it sat in a box for 6 years collecting dust. Only a few pages worth.

Dishonestmasterbator,

I figure you were banned recently because your account started last month and already has 637 comments in such a short amount of time. Your dumb ass comments and recomments at least 20 times a day. You need to get out of the house some time. YOU ARE TROLL. Honest to God.

@ 6dogs 1.10 post

I looked at your like, and the first sentence I encountered was...

"An unlawful combatant, illegal combatant or unprivileged combatant/belligerent is a civilian who directly engages in armed conflict in violation of the laws of war. An unlawful combatant may be detained or prosecuted under the domestic law of the detaining state for such action."

I see "detained or prosecuted" and "under the domestic law of the detaining state"

Does this not mean that we can detain and prosecute an unlawful combatant, but that we must do so with a trial by jury?

There fore it is ILLEGAL for the US to summarily execute an unlawful combatant.

Dying in combat is one issue, execution of a prisoner is another.

Am I wrong?

@ zappa:

You mean for quoting NRA dogma? (Next you're going to tell me not to promote stationing armed janitors outside every military training building)....sheesh....

@gordona; whats it like out there? lonely isn't it! I suppose next "after you are done picking fights with every one" you will want to ban weapons in the military. do you guys have some kind of school you all attend?

A love triangle. I was wrong.

@Mac-295039,

The way that you talk about your boys reminds me of the male elders in my family and how they behave. (Intended as a compliment)

I hope (and pray) that your health improves. Thanks for sharing part of your life with us. I know my Marine Veteran(and others) Maternal Grandpa will want to read it as well.

Regards and Best Wishes,

Brandon

BTW - You have a real talent for bringing your experiences to light. I can almost see what you are explaining.

gordona,

The only ignorant hateful posts I saw came from you, and not chefaz. Congratulations. I didn't think it was possible, but you made liberals seem even more ignorant.

Just ONE MORE reason why women should NOT be in any role in the field....period!! Get a clue!!

@ 2fast4U1701:

Thank you and please extend my warm wishes to your family and fellow servicemembers. I had two great uncles who served in World War Two and they would share their stories (both good and bad) about their times overseas in combat. Their detail and manner at which they could express themselves was amazing. One uncle had landed on Omaha Beach during the D-Day landings with the 1st Infantry Division. His stories were horrorific yet I couldnt turn myself away from wanting to know more and wonder how the hell did he make it to the shore line? He died before the movie "Savin' Private Ryan" made it to the screen but when I watched that movie for the first time it was like seeing his story on the big screen. My writings lack some interest as far as the people who actually create books so I gave up on the idea. But I write short stories about Iraq so my sons will have a historical document to let their kids and their grandkids know what their family members have endured. Without knowing our history we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and sometimes even when we know it we make the wrong choices. The biggest let down is having a bad back. Unable to play with the kids like football or run with them or walk long distances with them. It was really bad when I couldnt pick them up and carry them anymore. I felt like I had let them down as a father. Stupid as that may sound I just felt like that as not being a "whole man" or being able to be manly.

Zappa..Dont feed the trolls!

...or admit defeat....

Probably more gay stuff, really . . .

That's what I was thinking. Someone probably asked for some prized uniform wearing chocolate starfish and someone else being stingy refused to give it up.

I mean there is chocolate starfish, and then there is desirable uniform wearing, muscular, throbbing chocolate starfish.

People kill to get the latter.

Gordona -

When people start griping about Bush's "illegal war" (or whatever they want to call it) - they often try to make it a "republican thing", and forget that a large number of democrats were in favor of that war as well. They also tend to forget about the even more "questionable" war that Clinton got us involved in with the bombing campaign in Serbia in 1999. Bush was at least able to get congressional support from both sides. Clinton sought congressional approval, but claimed he had the power to send in US forces without their approval (which he did despite the congressional refusal to authorize use of force) - congress was notified of the air strikes after the fact. Also, President Obama's recent comments about US military involvment in Libya seem to indicate that he doesn't think he needs congressional approval (he "consults" and then acts, he does not directly ask for authorization) - this despite his telling the Boston Globe in 2007, “The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." Obama has not claimed that Qadafi is a direct or imminent threat to the US, but rather to the Libyans who oppose him. Both Clinton and Obama seem to think that the UN and NATO trump congress, and that all they need is a cry of "evil" from the UN or NATO and they can then skip congressional approval because they don't need it. To be fair, other presidents have done similar things, but let's be fair then and not continue to single out the president we most hate and cry "foul", when we don't seem to care that other presidents (even our "favorites") may have done the same or similar things.

Yes, "No Liberty" Warrantless drone strikes on American citizens. Now, you right wing hypocrites suddenly have a problem with terrorists not getting their day in court. But when Bush was doing it, starting with the "Patriot Act" it was just fine to kill and imprison darkies without due process. You clowns are so transparent. The GOP's only hope of success is the continued willful ignorance of its followers.

guitarick12345

crime is rampant in the u k! only instead of guns, they use other forms of murder, get your statistics right you left wing, wing nut!

UK Murder rate 1.2

USA Murder rate 4.8

Try facts you idiot. Stay away from bull@!$%# mountain you may learn something.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

flnobody -

Your spin does you no justice, clearly he said "crime" whereas you transfer that to "murder". Are you implying they are the same thing, or are you purposely being disingenuous?

Seeing that you're quoting Jon Stewart, I'm gonna go with purposely.

Warrantless drone strikes on American citizens.

As long as they aren't on US soil. The idea of missile armed drones in America is unnerving unless we are talking about rural attacks against paranoid anti-gov't survivalists.

@ honestdebate:

The difference between Comedy Central's "The Daily Show" and FOX "News" is, John Stewart openly admits his show is a parody on news.....

Mac, thank you for your service, and for your sacrifices. My husband is a 29 year active duty Army veteran, getting ready to retire. I won't know everything, and don't want to. But I know it is hell out there,and very ugly at times. And, I do believe some things just don't need to be known by the general public if it will put our troops at risk.

Kaybee - as the saying goes - Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one. No one wants war, and most people were "against it", but the fact is, we were there. Playing the blame game and calling it a mistake just doesn't change that. The thing we NEED to do is support our troops who are doing their job and not minimalize their service.

Have a good day

@ 29Again:

Please thank your husband for his long dedicated service, also I thank you for supporting him during his time on active duty. There are no words that can express how important our friends and family members support meams to us. Just to know that someone was worried about you and hoping for the best was something that let me know that I was not forgotten even when it seemed like a million miles away.

I take no offense from Kaybeetoys comments, he has the right to voice his concerns and feelings about Iraq. I wouldnt have it any other way really to be honest. I am sure he supports the troops but he didn't support the idea of war or going to war in Iraq. We all have opinions and certain subjects have different meanings and reactions than others do. please tell your husband to ensure he gets all his medical paperwork together and noted. I have had a difficult time working with the VA on several issues. There is an old military saying, "if it ain't on paper it never happened." Sad but true.

Gutarrick12345 is a lier. flnobody beat me to the truth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

@Mac 1.88 Please try again with a different publisher. The first one is clearly not worthy. Your writing is absolutely stellar. Please do not give up.

I open my home page and am not shocked to see yet another article reporting on yet another mass killing of human beings. Somewhere, some gun nut has gone off his rocker and ended the lives of more innocent people; at which we will mourn, wring our hands, and say that something must be done.

In Colorado, our governor has just signed into law truly logical gun control measures to restrict large capacity gun magazines, largely as a result of the mass shooting that happened in Aurora Colorado at the movie theater last year, to which the gun lobby responded in their usual vocal and irresponsible way. As I watched this play out on TV, I wondered out loud why we are even having this discussion. I have come to the realization that the insidious and very shrewd NRA and its ardent and mindless supporters have accomplished one very important thing, among their other irrational and sinister objectives. They have succeeded in turning our emotions from shock, stunned incredulousness to an almost blasé attitude in this country toward murder. I have concluded that their end goal is to turn a civilized society into a nation of wanton killers hiding behind the NRA, who have no conscience or remorse for their actions. The NRA lobby has succeeded in manipulating the mindset of young impressionable men to think that using a gun to kill someone instead of trying to explore other avenues for their frustrations is acceptable as normal behavior.

Let's remember, however, that many, if not most of our laws were and are designed with American citizens in mind. Our "rights" and "laws" don't always necessarily apply the same way to non-citizens. If we are at war with, say, China and they put troops on our soil, they would not get a trial by jury for shooting people, they would get shot on sight. It's easy to understand a foreign army, in uniform, as being an invader, but if they came in plain clothes on airliners, it wouldn't be so easy to tell. However, if they are not citizens of the US,they do not necessarily get all the rights and privileges of citizens of the US simply by standing on US soil. There are those who believe that the US should have a completely "open door" policy and let anyone who wants, come to the US and be considered as a full citizen the moment they step on US soil, without going through the naturalization process or anything like that, but if you read some of our nation's history you will see that many of the founders of our country were leery of that kind of policy. Early immigration in this country was often viewed with an eye towards whether or not the nation would benefit from the immigrants in question, or whether it could face a "conquering from within" by allowing too many foreign immigrants who might seek to take over, rather than join the union. For example, in our country, "majority rules" - the most votes wins. So for our country to turn into another "Iran", all it would take is for enough immigrants to come into the US and vote for a leader who does things their way, and laws that reflect the Iranian way of life, and viola! You and I now live in the United States of Iran. I admit, it would be quite difficult thing to achieve, but it is possible, at least in theory. To this day, we still find ourselves in the middle -debating, and fearing the extremes.

Libitards.

Welcome to the End Times:

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming? and of the end of the world(Matt. 24:3)?"

V12, "And because iniquity(sin: abortion, rape, casino, homosexuality,drugs, etc.) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold."

V8. "All these are the beginning of sorrows."

It's going to get "WORST" folks!!! All HELL is going break loose after the Rapture of the Believers from this earth.

This is WHY these things are happening, "BELIEVE IT OR NOT!"

have a good day.

@ Ennagram1:

What your governor did do will ensure several firearms companies picking up their business and jobs and moving somewhere else to set up operations. MAGPUL the maker of such high capacity magazines will most likely leave and the community will lose "x" number of jobs. While some may say, "great, whose next on the list" this won't stop the purchase of such items and MAGPUL will most likely set up shop somewhere in the South and give "X" number of people the chance at employment.

Mac: I'm aware of that; but that's how Coloradans want to live, and it's a start in the right direction. We have to draw the line somewhere, and I don't think jobs are more important than saving lives.

I guess the MORAL of the story is that Americans need to re-capture the true meaning of MORALS and stop fuqueing around with others when they are in a relationship with someone else...... It is the decay of our moral fiber and our short attentions that cause these types of tragedies. There's no justification ever for murder but this is another one of those things that you can say, it's wrong, but i get it. End a relationship before starting a new one and the odds of being killed by a scorned lover go way down.....Just saying

@ Enneagram:

Total confiscation will never happen. You could require additional checks and verifications but in the end the idea of total weapons ban will never be fullfilled. The Southern states would refuse such measures. Colorado is a changing state that is for sure, tution assistances for active duty has been revoked but your state is allowing illegal immigrants to obtain free or reduced college tution fees? Whatever works for you so be it.

#1.114 Jerry - V12, "And because iniquity (sin: abortion, rape, casino, homosexuality,drugs, etc.) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold." V8. "All these are the beginning of sorrows." It's going to get "WORST" folks!!!

Mr. Doomsday: All I know, or want to know about V12 and V8 is that they are carburetors.

Something can't get 'worst', but only 'worse'. 'Worst' is the superlative of 'bad'. It goes like this: bad, worse, worst.

@ Kozmonot 1.112

You wrote...

"Let's remember, however, that many, if not most of our laws were and are designed with American citizens in mind. Our "rights" and "laws" don't always necessarily apply the same way to non-citizens."

You are wrong. The principles of the United States Constitution and Declaration of Independence identify Natural Rights (rights not derived from man). For example (source:http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Nowhere does it say that all men only in the United States are created equal. Yes it is the U.S. Declaration that identifies these rights, but no it does not identify them solely for its own citizens. Further, from the Constitution's Bill of Rights (source:http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html)

"

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

"

I repeat the amendment starts with "No person" not "No United States Citizen", and near the end "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

By both the Declaration, and the Constitution, we can clearly see that the rights of the people, of ANY people, are protected by our principles.

What is the alternative? Do we say that American citizens are the superior master race? That all non-US citizens are infidels and unbelievers? Are all non US citizens the "Great Satan"? Do we say its OK to kill non US citizens outside of conflict and without due process - because they are sub-human? Is it OK to rape women and children because they are not US citizens?

Our laws, and the spirit behind them are specifically worded to protect ANYONE, ANYWHERE from being demonized, persecuted, and summarily executed.

Punish the guilty - YES, but find that guilt through due process, not mob rule.

My most sincere sympathy to the families of the lost Marines. May they find comfort in their memories of these fine young people.

@Mac295039 There are many self-publishing opportunites out there. Your writing is very good.

You can email me about this info: gracemarie@mail.com

@Amanda: Advertising is not permitted on the Vine.

@ Amada11756:

Many thanks and I will email you for that information this weekend. Most appreciative of your insight and understanding, once again many thanks.

Kozmonot said:

However, if they are not citizens of the US,they do not necessarily get all the rights and privileges of citizens of the US simply by standing on US soil.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you:

Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886)
In Yick Wo v. Hopkins, a case involving the rights of Chinese immigrants, the Court ruled that the 14th Amendment's statement, "Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws," applied to all persons "without regard to any differences of race, of color, or of nationality," and to "an alien, who has entered the country, and has become subject in all respects to its jurisdiction, and a part of its population, although alleged to be illegally here." (Kaoru Yamataya v. Fisher, 189 U.S. 86 (1903) )

Wong Wing v. U.S. (1896)
Citing Yick Wo v. Hopkins, the Court, in the case of Wong Wing v. US, further applied the citizenship-blind nature of the Constitution to the 5th and 6th amendments, stating ". . . it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the United States are entitled to the protection guaranteed by those amendments, and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law."

Plyler v. Doe (1982)
In Plyler v. Doe, the Supreme Court struck down a Texas law prohibiting enrollment of illegal aliens in public school. In its decision, the Court held, "The illegal aliens who are plaintiffs in these cases challenging the statute may claim the benefit of the Equal Protection Clause, which provides that no State shall 'deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.' Whatever his status under the immigration laws, an alien is a 'person' in any ordinary sense of that term… The undocumented status of these children vel non does not establish a sufficient rational basis for denying them benefits that the State affords other residents."

And no matter whether you believe this or not, what does this have to do with three Marines getting killed in a personal dispute?

No Liberty said:

Our laws, and the spirit behind them are specifically worded to protect ANYONE, ANYWHERE from being demonized, persecuted, and summarily executed.

That is what it says on the books. The reality is entirely different. No matter whether you are citizen, immigrant, undocumented, or illegal, there are no such things as rights. There are only temporary privileges that can be revoked at any time at the will of those in authority.

I was adopted internationally as an infant, never told before my parents passed away in a car accident. One day USCIS does a routine record search in my file, discovers the lost my adoption paper, and comes to me for a copy, which of course I couldn't give them as I'd never known I was adopted. That made me undocumented, and they placed me in deportation, then found that since I was abandoned as an infant, I have no original birth certificate showing where I was born and there was nowhere to deport me to.

Since no crime had been committed--USCIS losing a piece of paper wasn't a crime, me not knowing I was adopted wasn't a crime--I was never arrested. I was civilly detained--and Homeland Security told me I would remain in deportation until I gave them a copy of the paper. No phone call, no judge, no hearing, no trial, no lawyer-- you haven't done anything wrong, why do you need a lawyer? Heck, you don't even have the right to ask that a member of your own gender perform your body cavity searches.

It took me three years of writing letters but I eventually found the courthouse where my adoption paper was filed and they released me--with the caveat that if my name comes up in front of Homeland Security again for any reason, they can revoke my citizenship and put me back in that deportation camp. For this reason I don't drive, don't register to vote, don't own a car, never travel any further than the local public bus system will go.

There are no rights. There are only temporary privileges that can be revoked at any time.

No Liberty -

I was not trying to imply that US Citizens are any sort of "master race" or anything of that nature. Simply that a person's citizenship" can affect how our laws apply to them. Examples include "diplomatic immunity", and the "except in cases..." found in Article V. Other issues affected by citizenship (or lack thereof) include voting, work, school, government assistance, etc. I assume that you are not trying to imply that "according to the Constitution" that instead of shooting back at enemy soldiers, we should instead, round them all up and put them on trial. In ther same way, I am not condoning torture and the like, but looking for something more like a better legal process. it seems that over the years, it's gotten too easy to get away with things by "working the system", and it seems like it's gotten to the point where "crime does pay". For instance, when a case is thrown out and even though there was ample proof of the commission of the crime, the criminal is set free because the search was declared invalid due to an officer not waiting for a warrant, or because the criminal didn't realize that his admission of criminal activity to a friend over a cordless phone (which is a 2-way radio) could be heard over the police radio and argues that he should expect privacy etc. I don't think that's necessarily "justice" - instead, I think both individuals should be sentenced for their individual crimes. The defense of "Maybe I did commit the crime, but I shouldn't have been caught." - seems "unjust" - if you commit the crime - you take the punishment. This should apply to investigating officers officers as well. If the officers want to "bend or break the rules" - they better be prepared to go to jail as well (no excuses). I think this would improve things - criminals could not be "sure" that an officer would not be willing to "sacrifice himself" to ensure a conviction, and officers would risk harsher penalties for not following the rules (no ifs, ands, or buts). As for "suspected terrorists" - the laws (or seeming lack thereof) seem unreasonable (such as indefinite "black hole" confinement without being charged) - but eventually, it comes down to this: do we err on the side of caution or not? If we choose to err on the side of liberty and deal lightly with suspected terrorists, then we had should realize that we may see more attacks as a result, and if we choose to err on the side of caution and safety, we must realize that we will likely lose some of our freedom as a result. It's a tough situation, but you can't have both - and that doesn't seem to sit well with many Americans.

Kozmonot:

I was not trying to imply that US Citizens are any sort of "master race" or anything of that nature. Simply that a person's citizenship" can affect how our laws apply to them. Examples include "diplomatic immunity", and the "except in cases..." found in Article V.

Diplomatic immunity?

Hans Joachim Keil was arrested in Dutton in September and accused of being an illegal alien. He was an official representative of Samoa, a current Member of Parliament and a prominent businessman with many family links. He had diverted to Missouri on the way home from trade talks in Brussels where he represented Samoa. “They were going to lock me up for five years plus five years. Five years for impersonating a US citizen and five years for using an illegal US passport. On the day of my arrest when I brought to their attention, that I served in the US military … they threw that out the window and said that I’m an illegal alien and I have no right to be in the United States. They knew I was a Samoan diplomat but they had no regard for my diplomatic passport.”

...if we choose to err on the side of caution and safety, we must realize that we will likely lose some of our freedom as a result. It's a tough situation, but you can't have both - and that doesn't seem to sit well with many Americans.

But there has to be a median that we can, if not be entirely happy with, at least live with. Loss of liberty/rights are getting out of hand because of perceived threat. Consider this case of a Brooklyn, NY man held as an illegal in TX because the deputy thought he had a foreign accent:

Houston chef Leonard Robert Parrish, 52, ran afoul of a law intended for illegal immigrants. The Brooklyn-born Parrish went down to the Harris County Sheriff's Office in September to clear up a problem over a couple of bounced checks. He wound up in jail on immigration charges. He was strip-searched and spent 12 hours in custody. "The deputy told me I had a foreign accent," Parrish recalled. "I told him I had an East Coast accent. He said, 'It sounds like a foreign accent to me.'"

Or this guy:

Ernesto Galarza, a New Jersey-born U.S. citizen of Puerto Rican descent who was held illegally for three days in the Lehigh County Prison. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) agents ordered his detention, erroneously believing he was an undocumented immigrant from the Dominican Republic. Galarza’s Social Security card and Pennsylvania driver’s license were in his wallet at the time of his arrest and in the prison’s possession during his detention. Galarza was not told why he was being held for nearly three days. “I was shocked and upset that they assumed I am an immigrant. No one bothered to check or ask me about it. It’s clear that they only reason they decided I’m Dominican is because I’m Latino,” said Galarza. “I was born in New Jersey, and I’m a proud American. This isn’t how Americans should be treated. It’s like getting slapped in the face.'"

Or this guy:

Thomas Warziniack was born in Minnesota and grew up in Georgia, but immigration authorities pronounced him an illegal immigrant from Russia. Immigration and Customs Enforcement has held Warziniack for weeks in an Arizona detention facility with the aim of deporting him to a country he's never seen. His jailers shrugged off Warziniack's claims that he was an American citizen, even though they could have retrieved his Minnesota birth certificate in minutes and even though a Colorado court had concluded that he was a U.S. citizen a year before ICE shipped him to Arizona.

And it definitely shouldn't be happening to those who have fought for our country:

Mr. Ibarra, 46, was born in Mexico but was raised since infancy in Arizona. In his late 20s he enlisted in the Marines and served three years on active duty, including time in Iraq, before being honorably discharged. On February 23, 2011 Department of Justice adjudicator Richard Phelps ruled in Eloy, Arizona that George Ibarra had by a preponderance of the evidence proven that he is indeed a citizen of the United States. Rather than apologize to Mr. Ibarra for previously wrongfully detaining him, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is holding Mr. Ibarra in solitary confinement at the Eloy Detention Center, in clear violation of the U.S. Constitution and a memorandum requiring Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to release anyone with "probative evidence" of U.S. citizenship.

When you take rights away from one subsection of the population, we all lose eventually. Where does it end? Consider the words of Ben Franklin; "They who give up a little liberty for a little security shall deserve neither and lose both."

@Enneagram1,

"Mr. Doomsday: All I know, or want to know about V12 and V8 is that they are carburetors.

Let me guess............ you couldn't spell car if I spotted you the C and the R.......Right? So V8s and V12s are carburetors (aka Carbs and NOT sugars and starch either) now? DAMMMMMMN I Say Dammmmmmmn but you are either a really bad comedian or shouldn't be posting about subjects that you have no experience in. At least you didn't think that they were both juices -lolz The V is in reference to an engine configuration not the throats in a Carb. Most are 90' and 60' degree V engine designs (as seen from the snout of the crankshaft) with 90 being the easiest and toughest.

I'm guessing that you don't know much about Volumetric Efficiency or Flame Front Propagation either. Which means Cam Dynamics, Metallurgy and EFI are probably out too.

You Said: "@Amanda: Advertising is not permitted on the Vine."

First Amanda wasn't advertising. As I remember she is a veteran and seems to simply want to help out another member of OUR Military.

Second considering that you just joined in January 2013 as a rook I would't start just to flex your intellectual might.

Third do you ever just say or do anything nice for people regardless of party, race, ideology, etc. ?

Regards,

Brandon

2fast: Don't mess with me, Buster. I'm a hellavalot smarter than you are.

Enneagram, giving out one's e-mail address is NOT advertising. Don't be jealous.

Mac-295039-- I too want to thank you for your service. I firmly believe that this COUNTRY should feel honored to have had you serve her and all her people. Your posts regarding your three tours in Iraq were, in my opinion, objective, factual, and set forth with "conduct becoming of an officer."

Several of my uncles served in World War II as well--none in the same branch of service and all were sons of one father. The "Sullivan" rule didn't apply because one son was still at home. One was in the Merchant Marines carrying munitions across the Atlantic to Britain and twice his ship was hit by German torpedoes. One was in the Navy on a destroyer, another in the Air Force serving as a mechanic for our Air Force, and the second youngest was in the Army. The youngest then served in the Korean War (Air Force), along with two cousins (Marines), one of whom was only one of, I believe, five Marines from his platoon/unit who survived hand-to-hand combat with Chinese/North Korean soldiers. (I cannot recall the name of that battle.) The second youngest was in Germany. He and another soldier got separated from their unit. His companion was shot by an SS officer. While my uncle lay on the ground being tormented by the German, a shot from behind the German killed him. My uncle's life was saved by a Russian soldier. The Almighty smiled down on the family because somehow they all came back home alive. The only one who had lasting issues with his service, refusing to discuss it but once, was the Marine who survived hand-to-hand combat.

What I find disturbing and terribly disheartening is how quickly people rush to judgment and post vile, hateful, crude and even filthy and racist comments regarding our soldiers and military personnel. They paint them with a dirty brush immediately without knowing the facts. Of course there will always be a few who are disturbed, who emotionally cannot stand the stress of the difficult and sometimes brutal training that is required, in essence, to save their own lives in potential combat. But the fact that our own "Americans" post evidence of such reprehensible disdain and disrespect is done in an open forum--open to the world--and this is the impression we give across the world of what we are. Ugly Americans. This lack of compassion, intolerance, vileness most certainly is one of the reasons why we are not liked. It is not just our politics, but, frankly, us.

ANOTHER Wacko with a loaded gun. SEE ??

Some men should be banned from entering the Military.

Ban Wackos in the Military.

Ban War. ALL WAR. If any person begins a war -- DOES NOT MATTER THE REASON NOR RANK/POSITION NOR ULTERIOR MOTIVES -- kill them.

@ Amanda 1.126

That's absolutely horrible what happened to you. While it may make little difference in your case, were you to have been formally charged (as non-formally locking you up in deportation violates your 4th and 8th amendment rights) and I were on your jury, I would find you not guilty. Similar, should you accuse the government of violating your rights, and I were on the jury, I would find the USCIS guilty of violating your rights.

By using tactics like they have to detain you, they are violating your rights without giving you the due process to defend yourself. This is CLEARLY a violation of the Constitution. Should I ever find myself in a position to uphold the Constitution with my vote, or with my vote as a juror, I will defend your Right Amanda, to the same treatment any other US citizen receives.

We recognize these Rights as inalienable and derived from nature/creator, not from man, they are NOT privileges, and anyone acting like they are is committing an ILLEGAL act.

@ Kozmonot 1.127

Thank you for clarifying, I think we have some common ground here, and I apologize if I mistook your argument. You have some great points below (your comments in italics),

"I assume that you are not trying to imply that "according to the Constitution" that instead of shooting back at enemy soldiers, we should instead, round them all up and put them on trial. In ther same way, I am not condoning torture and the like, but looking for something more like a better legal process."

Combat is a wholly different situation, killing an enemy combatant during a firefight fine. I just get touchy when I hear things that sound like treating captured combatants, or any non-combatant US citizen any different than we treat our own citizens. We MUST treat everyone equally, else we divide the world into different races and descend into barbarism. A captured enemy combatant, or arrested non-US citizen is granted the same rights under our Constitution as a US citizen would be under similar circumstances.

"it seems that over the years, it's gotten too easy to get away with things by "working the system", and it seems like it's gotten to the point where "crime does pay"."

I agree, "working the system" goes against the spirit of the Constitution. There will unfortunately always be criminals out there that are smart or ruthless enough to evade the law, possible forever. However, we MUST not sacrifice our own innocent citizens to catch a couple more bad guys.

I am saying that without perfect forensics, a free society will ALWAYS be plagued by some percentage of crime. The best way to combat it is for police to follow the law (so they do not create victims themselves) and citizens to do what they can to report, witness and testify to crime.

"do we err on the side of caution or not? If we choose to err on the side of liberty and deal lightly with suspected terrorists, then we had should realize that we may see more attacks as a result, and if we choose to err on the side of caution and safety, we must realize that we will likely lose some of our freedom as a result. It's a tough situation, but you can't have both - and that doesn't seem to sit well with many Americans"

It is a tough situation, but I am willing to take the risk of a terrorist attack, if it means I can go to bed at night knowing that I have not condemned anyone of torture. More so, I have more pride in being part of a country that does NOT torture, that being part of one that does so in a futile attempt to stop all attacks. As above, I try to be vigilant, responsible and am willing to testify to any crime I see committed. I recognize that I will never live in a crime free country, but am proud to live in a free one.

And again, if the people of the United States want to modify the Constitution, they have that right. The majority can LEGALLY repeal any amendment, or add any amendment.

If we want to be a country that sacrifices liberties to improve safety, WE CAN!

I vote no, but I can be outvoted.

@ Tess42:

You have a long tradition in your family of military service. I am honor to hear from you. Please extend my well wishes for you and your family members who have served in so many places in harms way. I just wanted to tell my side of the story with concerns to the war in Iraq. I think so many times we forgot to see it from the service members perspective until the mission and those men are long gone. I just hope that more stories such as the ones I wrote about will be read or at least told to the next generation so they can learn from our mistakes. The young seek adventure, danger, excitement when it comes to conflict, but in reality there is nothing exciting getting shot at and seeing people get wounded or killed right in front of you. My goal is to let me children know why their father served and why he thought it was the right choice in his life.

Amanda - you're right, those cases you list appear to be serious miscarriages of justice. It's just that from what I've seen, read, etc. that laws don't always work the same for citizens and non-citizens.

NoJustice-I am in agreement that I would rather have just and equal laws, etc. and accept the inherent risk, than to trade "true liberty" for some "percieved safety". Unfortunately, with liberty and privilege comes responsibility, and I fear that over the last couple of centuries, little by little, many of us have forgotten that our constitution, government and laws were created with the assumption of morally responsible people being able to properly govern themselves as well as their country. When the people see too many "irresponsible" people abusing their "freedom" to do unacceptable things, they start to think that maybe surrendering a little freedom in order to be "protected" from the "bad things that happen" might be a good idea. I can't say that I agree with that train of thought (I guess I'm thinking that if we go down that road, then the terrorists win). Oh, also, when I was in the military, I had a scout team of 4-5 guys that was not a large enough force to "take prisoners", nor did we have the facilities to do so (luckily no enemy combatants ever tried to surrender to us because our policy was "We don't take prisoners", because we were not in a position to be able to do it, and I sometimes wondered about what we would do if anyone ever did try to surrender to us).

--And yes, this was a complete rabbit trail that had little, if anything to do with the shooting - just a discussion about laws that just got completely off track.

Mac-295039 -

You're right. One of the statements that always stuck with me during active duty was something my National Guard Unit Commander once said, "If we're ordered to go to war, we go and do our jobs to the best of our ability. We're soldiers - it's what we do. But nobody in their right mind wants to go to war."

That, along with a memorable quote from Otto Von Bismarck (founder and first Chancellor of the German Empire), "Anyone who has ever looked into the glazed eyes of a soldier dying on the battlefield will think hard before starting a war." prompted me, in the wake of 9/11 to challenge the many people I met who were clamoring for the government to send the military overseas to "do something", to think of the possible consequences of what they were demanding. I asked if they were currently serving, willing to enlist or to send their friends and relatives overseas, and told them that as a former service member, I felt it was my duty to my fellow soldiers and sailors still serving to ensure that their lives were not wasted on a "passing fad of war". If you ask that the military be sent in, then do not "change your mind in a couple years when the war is still going on, but your feelings have changed." War veterans should never this country's "permanent reminder of a temporary feeling" (as Jimmy Buffet might say).

A Marine opened fire on two of his comrades Thursday night at a base in Quantico, Va., before turning the gun on himself, leaving all three dead, military officials said. A relationship dispute was believed to be behind the shooting, which occurred in the staff barracks

It's a terrible thing that one person found themselves in the midst of a situation and thought that the viable solution was to murder two others and then kill himself. On the other hand, we can breathe a collective sigh of relief that this was not another Fort Hood.

After reading through offtopic, comical, confused, angry, insulting and completely nonsensical comments, about all I can do is laugh. Just as people do not listen or comprehend what they are hearing, there are those here that did not bother to read or did not understand what they have read or just typed out some "stuff" possibly with a baffle 'em with bs attitude. A sad and scary sampling of our population interspersed with some good posts.

Much thanks skrewdworld, FedupwithFed, 2Fast4U1701 and Mr.Burns for having my back while I was gone. Greatly appreciated. ☺

@Enneagram1,

"2fast: Don't mess with me, Buster. I'm a hellavalot smarter than you are."

Not judging by your posts ...................... you are a funny little troll. Besides threats are Illogical and payment often costly.

Your Ignorance is in your Arrogance. Subdue the latter and you will correct the former. - Brandon Josiah Li 2013

Or as Mom the ex-lawyer turned Psychologist (PHD) would quote from her favorite Freud:

"Your Ignorance is ignorance; no right to believe anything can be derived from it." - Sigmund Freud The Future of an Illusion, Norton, 1961.

Considering that I'm less than 6 months away from an associates degree in Mechanical Engineering and still have 2 months to go in High School I doubt it. It could have been a BA or at least faster but I have farm work, boxing,martial arts, baseball, and attend tournaments on my Clyde. Plus being paid to do Mech. Civil and Elect. CAD work since I was 12, computer repairs also.

Mom's IQ 193, Grandpa's (Maternal) 179, My Father's 170, my 12yr old brothers 194, my 13 year old brothers 190.

I MOCK your so called superior intellect.

Regards,

Brandon The Progressive Liberal

"