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Subscribe to RSSDramatic video of a gunman firing repeatedly into a Philadelphia shop and the ensuing struggle that left three people injured was released by police on Thursday as they stepped up the hunt for the attacker.
Footage posted on YouTube by the Philadelphia Police Department shows one victim trying to keep the culprit out by holding the door closed while others fall to the floor and try to shield themselves. Bullets pierce the glass door and the suspect reaches around to fire again at the group.
Philadelphia Police Department
Police are seeking the public's assistance in identifying the suspect for a shooting that injured three men in Philadelphia.
Separate video of Tuesday night's shooting filmed outside the store shows the suspect walking to the front door and firing into the shop. After several failed attempts to get at the victims inside, he backs up and fires through the glass.
The attacker then turns and runs away, leaving three victims with non-life-threatening gunshot wounds.
Police describe the shooter as being a black male between 6 feet and 6 feet and 2 inches tall, of medium build with a beard or goatee and wearing a dark colored sweatshirt.
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Oh boy, here we go again...
Here we have a criminal with no hand gun experience or he would have killed someone. Just watching the video, you can tell he really doesn't know how to even use the dam thing...
This is the difference with experienced gun handlers and non-experienced ones....
That said, let's start all the Anti-Gun / Anti-NRA BS..... It's inevitable....
Just remember, ban "anything" all you want, they'll "always" find a way..... "Always"...
I'm with you, Creekdog - We need to be sure we only pass laws that criminals will approve of! Otherwise, what's the point, right? Why bother with outlawing murder since murderers are still murdering people?
Morning Creek Dog
Those folks inside were so LUCKY to not have at least been critically wounded.Given it was only a glass door which divided them from the shooter. I can't understand why he didn't shoot through the door after they blocked it the first or second time.Hope those injured will heal quick, and the shooter is found.If this is gang related, they just got their best wake up call.I wonder how many times that gun has been passed around since it was created?
Yea, They should have better handgun training..If criminals hads more training they wouldn't do that stuff.. Idiot.
Yes CreekDog;
What we all need is more handgun experience to finish the job right!
In Canada we have minimal handgun problems because for the most part they are banned (since 1936). You and your buddies are so blinded by the NRA-Gun Culture of owning these weapons that I promise will be continually used because of the stupid manner in which you approach this killing problem. Wake up you gun nuts please! Does Newtown and others ever ring a bell in your petite minds?
Creekdog always comes up with some stupid theory on how criminals would always get guns, no matter what. He never does explain why gun control works so well in other countries. Criminals over there don't seem to have an easy time getting guns. I'm sure Creekdog would reply that criminals in Mexico don't have a problem getting guns, but he would ignore the fact that lax laws in Arizona allow "law-abiding citizens" to make straw purchases for these criminals.
Guns were the tool used, but this was most likely a gang hit, probably related to drugs somehow. This is the real source of gun violence in this country - gang activity and other organized crime which distributes the drugs which people get hooked on and then rob people to get more money so they can buy more drugs. If it were possible to get rid of drugs, you would get rid of most of the gun violence in this country.
That being said, if the kid had a sharp knife, he would have had a much harder time injuring three people - especially while standing outside.
[quote]ExYahooUser
Creekdog always comes up with some stupid theory on how criminals would always get guns, no matter what. He never does explain why gun control works so well in other countries. Criminals over there don't seem to have an easy time getting guns. I'm sure Creekdog would reply that criminals in Mexico don't have a problem getting guns, but he would ignore the fact that lax laws in Arizona allow "law-abiding citizens" to make straw purchases for these criminals.[/quote]
You have no clue what you're talking about.
ex, There's no theory involve. History shows us how well bans work. Prohibition and the drug war.
Comparing the US to European countries is ridiculous. European countries don't have thousands of miles of open border. They also don't have over 300 million guns on the street. They also don't have a constitution right to own a firearm.
BTW, laws in Arizona doesn't have anything to do with "straw purchasing". That is federal law that hasn't been enforced.
Kind of like a dick! Don't know how to use it but it shoots anyway! lol Very dangerous street nowadays! I'm packing big! (+)************x4
+p
Just get a slug and track him down with the ballistics, gun permit, and background check. Oh wait, it does not work that way and he would be 0-3. The problem is felons and gangs will still get guns with the thousands they make each day selling drugs to your kids. It is a complete breakdown of society..............
I agree Bro, talk about a dumb a$$. The guy is standing outside a "Glass" door and yet he struggles to get his hand inside the door. If he knew anything about a gun he would have easily just shot right through the door and killed everybody in the place. The guys an idiot, and now the whole world can see it. Plus I'm not so sure he was a black guy, he looks an awful lot like a white guy. And think about it, only a white guy would stand back and shoot at the door, or for that matter, try to get his hand inside the door. You can easily tell he's never been to a range, or handled a handgun too much. I'd say he probably stole the pistol from his dad. Time will tell, of that I am sure. Now everybody blast me about my comment, I'm pretty used to that.
chef,
I'm not going to blast your post but I will say one thing, criminals come in all colors, shapes, genders, sizes, ages and they're all just as stupid and in the same category as this guy.
They're "all" A-holes no matter how you look at them and their actions....
Get a grip!
the fact that there aren't dead people laying all over the floor of that store is because of the way they customers reacted to the gunman! had they not held him off by "securing" the door half of them would be dead ...
These guys had balls ... most people would have never reacted in that way .. most would have run and died ...
5 to 1 ..they know who he is ... please note how fast they exited the store after the shots ...
They were not customers. they were hiding from the gunman. they probably tried to rob him and when he pulled his gun they ran and tried to hide. he found them.
Pathetic the way anti-gun nutjobs try to blame the gun for this. Really pathetic.
Nice catch, D Bennett,
Why are they all looking out the door before he even walks by? Something's not right. They knew he was coming. Didn't know enough to lock the door, but they knew he was coming.
@ Leo & Sully, you stupid anti gun people miss the point Creek Dog is making. Anyway, Sully, you keep your ass in Canada where you belong, you obviously don't understand what freedom or the Bill of Rights is about.
Most of these bangers no little about the devastation a bullet is capable of nor how to handle a weapon. All they see is gun violence on TV until a situation like this occurs. You anti gunners need to get your cities under control through existing laws, and leave the rest of us the hell alone.
It's a shame natural selection did not come to full fruition with these scumbags.
So...how many laws were violated in this video? Doesn't appear that the "perp" gave a rats ass about any pre-existing laws now did he? Good thing those guys, good guys or otherwise, didn't stand in front of that door any more then they did. They'd be stacked up like firewood. Just another textbook example why making NEW LAWS won't stop criminals. As previously stated...CRIMINALS....BY DEFINITION...DO NOT FOLLOW THE LAW.
Being the law abiding citizen he was I'm sure he obtained that gun by following the legal standards of background checks and photo I.D
"If he knew anything about a gun he would have easily just shot right through the door and killed everybody in the place." --Chefsteve
Um, did you even watch the video? He fired six times into the door and the safety glass did NOT shatter. That's why he was doing his reach around. (Either that or he has a bad reach-around habit.)
"And think about it, only a white guy would stand back and shoot at the door, or for that matter, try to get his hand inside the door." Yeah, what kind of racist are you, the black variety or the white variety? Or are you insinuating that only a white guy would have enough motivation to get out of his car, WALK to his victims, and face them eye to eye to kill them, and black guys would just drive by in comfort?
"The guys an idiot, and now the whole world can see it." Yes, thank you for displaying your racist stupidity for the whole world to see, Einstein.
"Now everybody blast me about my comment, I'm pretty used to that." I bet you are!
Wind,
Because criminals aren't very smart. He thought the gun had to be inside to fire. These are the people that our laws should be targeting. Harsh punishments are needed for these criminals.
1. 20 years mandatory for crimes committed while in the possession of a firearm. No plea deals.
2. 30 years mandatory for crimes committed while bransihing a firearm. No plea deals.
3. Mandatory life in prison or Death when a firearm is discharged during a crime resulting bodily injury or death. No plea deals.
It might not stop some criminals, but it could save at least one life from the hands of a repeat offender.
"You anti gunners need to get your cities under control through existing laws, and leave the rest of us the hell alone" --bdjbforfun
Amen, Brother!
"Creekdog always comes up with some stupid theory on how criminals would always get guns, no matter what. He never does explain why gun control works so well in other countries." --Yahoo
It's been explained many times. You choose not to understand. Your brain has been washed so completely that you blow bubbles every time you exhale.
Here are the Cliff's Notes: It's cultural: most countries are older than the U.S. and many already had a culture that wasn't as gun centric as ours. It's cultural: the U.S. is more densely populated than some of your "example" countries. It's cultural: there are multiple factors in our culture that exacerbate the violent tendencies, like gangs and drugs, glorified movie/game/music violence. It's cultural: our culture tends to either treat mental disorders with mind/mood altering drugs, or not treat it at all. It's cultural: the djinni's already out of the bottle, it may be too late already for the type of control you "gun control" freaks want. You should probably clean up your own backyards before you rant about your neighbor's.
Here's more anti gun/NRA BS. Every day, more guns enter our lives and your/my life are more endangered not by just the criminals and crazies, but law-abiding-folks-with-guns who lose it for this or that reason. Yes, there are more law abiding folks with guns, but there are also more criminals with guns. Thanks. No one is safe any more. You wanted wild west lawlessness. You've got it.
Everyone in that video looked like thugs who knew each other. Shame they didn't all blow each other away.
the guy in this video is one reason why I have a gun and know how to use it
...and why I resent anyone trying to take it from me
LOL! Hook, line and sinker creek dog. They just couldn't resist! Well played! LMAO!!
Tell me about it. And just think, I used "Cyber Stren" to reel them in. The difference is, I used "real" bait and not an "artificial" one... Thank you sir.
CC GWRider said it how it is and posted very good spot on comments. Some people mistook my post as if the criminals should be better trained but I expected that from the anti-NRA'ers.
It comes natural in thoughtless minds.....
Take care guys...
To bad this thug didn't come up on a 'Zimmerman'.
Suspect shot 10 rounds and came up empty. He must of had a new 10 round clip for his 9mm not the old 17 one. Poor shot. His targets were lucky.
this violent creature deserves to die as he lived,violently.no life sentence at the taxpayers expense.find him and either shoot him or let him shoot himself.
WOW, all black & all wearing hoodies! Who would have thought that these types of individuals would be involved in a shooting or some other type of crime?
Yea there's more to this story, the shooter wanted payback and the guys inside knew he was coming and were ready to fight him off. No waiting customers would have done that and then take off running. Its the gangsta lifestyle they learn on the streets and prison.
ban hoodrats !!! problem solved
Step 1: Learn your Constitutional rights.
Step 2: Realize 75% of all firearm murders in the U.S. come from handguns.
Shotguns (Biden approved), Long rifles and "Assault style" rifles share the final 25%.
Step 3: Understand that of the total 14,000 firearm murders in the U.S., an estimated 75-80% are gang related (see video example above)
Step 4: Fight the fragile hearts trying to snuff law abiding citizens rights by using fear tactics and mass hysteria.
Step 5: Continue to enjoy America's wonderful freedoms.
Say 'hoodie' and watch 'em go for the collapse button.
To all you libs, who think the 2nd Amendment does not protect our right to keep and bear - I ask you this: Do you agree and understand that it is a fact that Thomas Jefferson was one of the founding fathers who drafted the Bill of Rights and signed it? The answer is yes! And I forward you the following Quote from Thomas Jefferson:
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
Therefore, it is absolute the intent of the 2nd Amendment! Believe it and protect it to the fullest extent! Period! Or, be it ten years or one thousand years, you will eventually lose the entire Bill of Rights! Now, you say we have an army that protects us as well as our government. To that I answer - the right to keep and bear still thwarts the dissolution of our rights, as long as we protect the 2nd.
ExYahooUser....you are an idiot...do you really think criminals obey laws?? Are you really that stupid?...OF COURSE criminals will get guns....and use them on fools like you!
I agree with hunterusp, there is more to the story... the people inside were in no way caught off guard, and all but 2 of the people didn't flee, they went after the guy. for all anyone knows they might have even ran to grab cars to keep the chase until the guy was caught... very interesting, and if by chance they did flee like idiots going the same direction as the shooter, why would they have fled, vs waiting for the cops to show up?
Let's consider banning hoodies. At least that way we would be able to see who these thugs are and prosecute them. Oh, wait, we don't enforce laws in inner cities.
When are people going to realize that the majority of gun crimes are commited by thugs/gangbangers? So in the eyes of liberals no one should be allowed to own a gun because of the thugs? Fu-king idiots.
Another "fine" African-American male who's moma says he is a good boy. Yup, honest work is not an option.
bdjbforfun I am not anti gun but man do I get sick of the"I need guns to protect me from my government" Ummm, drones...HELLO, trained military snipers....Hello, If the powers that be wanted you dead...you would be dead. The whole idea of the tyrannical government coming to get you is friggen stupid and your ability to defend against it ended with the flintlock idiot.
ExYahooUser
Creekdog always comes up with some stupid theory on how criminals would always get guns, no matter what. He never does explain why gun control works so well in other countries
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there's no direct evidence of a correlation between gun control and gun violence rates
Mexico is very restrictive, yet has a sky high firearm crime rate
Australia banned them and armed robberies in homes went up 600% and gun suicides are still 300% of the US rate
Canada has much more relaxed laws, only slightly more restrictive than the US, but only has 1/3 the murder rate
the UK has very restrictive controls, yet has a firearm assault rate in London as high as many US cities but a much lower murder rate
there is no correlation.... gun laws do not equal less violence....
what equals less violence is a less violent culture and a competent mental health care system... the US does not have either....until we have those, restricting peoples rights will do nothing.
Creek Dog, If you ban the manufacture and sale of guns to the public, you stop the problem, your an idiot. Then you need to confiscate the guns from the public, yes I would have no trouble prying it from your lifeless hands. How would you pea shoot stand up to an Armor division?
"...Police describe the shooter as being a black male .." There you have it. For all those complainers about the White Supremicist suspect (White}killer of the Colorado Prison Chief(White) having his race described by the press. Travis, somebody should have told the latter killer he wasn't dark enough to kill. That would have saved the Prison Chief's life for sure.
In this case Dark tried but had no skills as usual and just like most criminals he left with nothing but an attempted murder charge. Just think if one of the victims had a gun justice would be served.
Lord, make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true and my hand faster than those who would seek to destroy me.
Grant me victory over my foes and those that wish harm to me and mine.
Let not my last thought be “ If only I had my gun ”; and Lord if today is truly the day that You call me home,
let me die in a pile of empty brass.
Wonder if Obama will say this kid looks like his son too?
Stupid post.
Zimmerman murdered Martin, get over it.
He kinda looks like your father, i mean the mail man.
[quote]ExYahooUser
Stupid post.
Zimmerman murdered Martin, get over it.[/quote]
No he didn't.
Matt,
There's a good reason he's an "EX" yahoo user. It probably wasn't his choice. They "banned" him and look, it didn't work. LMAO dude... ;-)
If you see his posts, they're all negative. His posts are compatible with coke (my opinion) and mentos (his opinion)...
It's all in the upbringing.....
Sounds like great post. Get over it libs!
You libs are fighting a losing battle. You shouldn't have brought sticks to a gun fight...pun intended.
Doubt it idiot, the guy is white. When are you idiots going to stop with the same stupid posts? Get a REAL life.
@ ExYahooUser
Zimmerman murdered Martin, get over it.
Thank God our judicial system doesnt require your completely uninformed input to convict.
He looks like your father to me.
yahoo: If you're right then....thank you Zimmerman!!
Just a couple of thoughts. Where's his so called "assault weapon"? Appears to be a gang related situation. The suspect is wearing a common light grey sweat suit. I would be interested in knowing how they came up with the "dark colored" sweatshirt.
and the black two tone millienum pro
Full sweatpants suit? Obviously the shooter was dressed for comfort.
Maybe they just left the YMCA and they joked about his wang. GMUS
That is because it is harder to run from a crime scene in jeans that are falling off of you while holding your gat.
Hoodies are cool man.. Everyone should get one..
"Treyvon Martin" support edition Hoodie (pictured above) $75.99 on Amazon.
(All proceeds go to help Treyvon's parents secure trademarking, book deals and movie rights.)
PA had better get those legislators back into session right away. More advanced gun laws and prohibiting this, that and the other thing most definitely would have prevented this situation from ever happening.
I wonder if he had a concealed carry permit? The legislative body of this country is the biggest joke since Red Skelton died.
no,it wouldn't have,you idiot!!!
Did you see all the hardware(i.e. guns and magazines) falling to the floor from the so called victims? I'm sure they all had a CCW license. These hoodrats are a scourge to law abiding gun owners and the general public.
Huh? I didn't see any guns or magazines on the floor? I see a bunch of trash (e.g., bottles, cans, paper) from the garbage can that got knocked over, but no guns or ammo. There is a rectangular black item on the floor in the middle that could have been a magazine, but when one of the guys steps on it it appears to be very flat and likely paper.
To what are you referring?
Imagine if the other People had been armed how easily it would have been to defend themselves. This is the problem with the liberal mindset. Criminals will always use illegal means to hurt someone and or kill. Yet in this situation they could have easily defended themselves had they been armed.
The so called liberal mindset just thinks that if the gun were registered maybe we could find out how the shooter got it. Why is that so terrible?
Becasue history tells us that gun registration is the first step to gun confiscation. As a retired cop I can tell you that in most cases it's not that difficult to find out where a firearm came from.
The old "the goverment is coming to get your guns" stupidity.
Paul, relax. Nobody will take away your guns. We DO have the Second Amendment, you know.
The so called liberal mindset just thinks that if the gun were registered maybe we could find out how the shooter got it. Why is that so terrible?
Paul's right Grandpa, registration is the first step toward confiscation. There is nothing in the 2nd Amendment that says guns must be registered. And why would a criminal register his illegally gotten gun in the first place? DUH!
Cat and grandpa, where have you been? Two people of authority and influence, Feinstein and Bloomberg, have publicly stated their goal and dream is to disarm Americans. Feinsteins gun ban bill included confiscation of the firearms she had on her list. According to the article the other day there were 40 other Senators that would vote for that bill. So don't tell me there isn't anyone other there wanting to disarm Americans.
Bloomberg started a group and think tank with it's goal being the disarming of Americans. Bloomberg's plan as seen in the Illinois primaries is to get more anti 2nd Amendment people in places of authority so down the road the votes will be there to ban all firearms.
A constitutional amendment is only as good as the Supreme Court says it is. If down the road a president and congress can get enough justices on the court that read the 2nd Amendment differently it will be gutted.
Paranoid Paul - Relax, nobody is coming to take your guns. Feinstein and Bloomberg have no power to do so, no matter what they say they want. I'm tired of the whole "They want to take away my guns" propoganda. Grow up. There are more guns in the crazy nation than there are crazy people to use them for Pete's sake. When are you idiots going to get with the program? I suppose you still think America has the best health care system in the world and that tax breaks for the super rich create jobs.
Ok, hypothetically, lets say there is a gun registration database, and the gun was registered. How's knowing the original purchaser of the gun going to help? There's several ways the gun could have left their hands:
Point is, by the time this guy could have obtained the gun, it could have passed through countless hands with it never even being registered.
Logical fallacy alert!
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/slippery-slope/
which is why universal background checks, even for private sales, should be required.
Sell a firearm without completing the background check paperwork? You are a "gun trafficker" and should go to prison if that gun is used in a crime. Easy.
DrowningGrover, if only we lived in this perfect world you describe...
How many of the 2nd hand market/black market arms dealers are going to pay attention to this? I'm 100% fine with thorough background checks, oh wait, already happens...
The gun control proponents NEVER, and I mean absolutely NEVER take into consideration the criminal component and how the law affects them. It doesn't. Gun control laws work only in a perfect world, but in the perfect world, they're unneeded to begin with.
DrowningGrover,
Can you explain in detail how the govt will enforce this, or make sure that criminals and trafficers submit to the background checks?
Universal Checks will only work on law abiding citizens. The likes of people like in this video will never submit to a background check.
@upset - And we are tired of the whole "assualt weapon" thing. Why don't you guys grow up? What you anti-freedom people don't get is that an "assault weapon" is no different from any other semi-automatic rifle - it just looks different. Feinstein and Bloomburg do have the power to convince other idiots to go along with their twisted views. When they have enough lemmings on their side what do think is going to happen? I suppose you still think that Obamacare actually does something to lower health care costs and that socialism works.
Yeah, who the hell are they, anyway? They are just lawmakers, no power or influence at all.
DrowningGrover - if you think that registration doesn't lead to confiscation you need to watch this.
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featu...n/2081848359001
For the ones that want an "assault weapon" ban you need to watch this.
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495
Universal background checks will not work without at least basic registration (at least for the initial sale from a FFL dealer). I usually suggest statewide registration as it lessens the fear of the "tyrannical federal government" boogeyman.
If a person buys a gun from an FFL and licenses it, then if they want to make a private sale a background check MUST be conducted (I usually suggest through a FFL agent, for example, Walmart). If the background check is NOT conducted and the firearm shows up at a crime scene, then the original buyer is considered a "gun trafficker" and faces considerable jail time plus additional liability related the crime in question.
Since 85-90% of criminals obtain their weapons through private transactions (e.g., straw purchases and/or trafficking rings, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html), this would dry up supply. Most people will voluntarily go through the "hassle" of conducting a background check through an agent (and paying the $25 fee or so) if they face the possibility of 10 years in prison (or more) should they not.
Of course this will not solve all problems related to gun violence, but it's universal background checks coupled with basic registration is just about the ONLY thing that will make a dent in the issue. Assault weapon bans, magazine size restrictions, etc., are pipedreams (they're politically nonviable) and would barely make a difference anyway, so we should focus on drying up the handgun supply to gangbangers and crazy people (since something like 70+% of gun violence occurs with handguns anyway).
Again, I don't put much weight on arguments based on logical fallacies. And last I checked, Canada doesn't have a Constitutionally guaranteed right to firearms (like we do in the USA).
I do not support an Assault Weapon Ban. It would be meaningless and arbitrary, and wouldn't make one iota of a difference anyway. Assault weapons are used in something like 1% of gun crime, they are the LEAST important aspect of gun control. I wish Senators like DiFi and Schumer would understand this.
Correction to above, upon looking it up Canada does have a legal right to bear arms, but they're laws are far more restrictive and many are prohibited via the Firearms act.
In addition, Canada is not "confiscating" all guns, just those prohibited via the Firearms Act. As we currently have nothing of the sort (an assault weapon ban will not pass) I have no fear of confiscation in this country. If a mass confiscation effort every took hold in this country, the courts would certainly stop it, and even in the absence of court intervention, ordinary citizens would make the cost of confiscation so prohibitive ("from my cold dead hands") that it would end swiftly.
How is the fact that the Canadian government used gun registration to find and confiscate guns a "logical fallacy"? It doesn't matter that their constitution has a "2nd Amendment" type right or not. By definition 'logical fallacy" is an oxymoron. If it's logical it can't be a fallacy.
DrowningGlover, UBC and registration really only prevent straw purchases, which is actually less than 10% of all purchases. And to get around family/friend obtained firearms, it merely requires them to file a stolen weapon report.
But, we again come back to the whole perfect world laws in a not-so-perfect world. If the laws on the books were actually enforced, or the traffickers were caught, AND/OR stiffer pentalties for firearm related violence were enacted, THEN you might have a better job of curbing the violence.
You can't put a bandaid on a 6" gash and expect it to heal. You got a stitch it up first.
the "slippery slope" is a logical fallacy, on par with reducto ad absurdum (which is used a lot in gun arguments) and strawmen. I put very little weight in these types of arguments, as should most people.
uh... I'm not sure you understand what the phrase "logical fallacy" means then...
According to the ATF and law enforcement, straw purchases are responsible for the majority of firearms that make their way into criminal hands.
First, regarding the "enforcement of laws already on the books," many "laws on the books" are basically unenforceable at the lobbying behest of the NRA. For example, the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act restricts the ATF from inspecting firearms dealers more than once a year. Or the Tiarht amendments (2003) that make same-day destruction of background check info a requirement so that
no mistakes can be correctedyour privacy is protected.When the NRA says "enforce the laws on the books" it's disingenuous because they actively work to make doing so as difficult as possible (they're the reason why we can't confirm an ATF director, because in 2006 they lobbied for a law that makes the ATF director subject to Senate confirmation and then the GOP steadfastly refuses to confirm anyone...).
Second, regarding catching gun traffickers, it is nearly impossible to do without at least basic firearm registration. This was the whole impetus behind Operation Wide Receiver and Operation Fast & Furious. From all the attention "Fast & Furious" garners from the GOP and their rightwing supporters, they don't seem to understand (or don't CARE to understand) exactly WHY those operations were undertaken in the first place.
All-in-all, I agree with you that solving the issue of gun violence in this country is NOT simple (especially in light of how many firearms are ALREADY in existence without any means of tracking them) but our choices are do nothing (I can't even call this the "NRA plan," because their plan is to put MORE guns on our streets and in the hands of criminals) or make common sense efforts to curb it. The problem will likely never be solved, but it can and should be reduced.
{And for the record, and am NOT ardently anti-gun. I support the 2nd amendment, think assault weapon bans are stupid, and would actively fight any gun confiscation efforts.}
The Tiarht has its pros and cons, as does any law. The Brady Act has its pros and cons. 24 hour destruction ensures that if you're having a bad day, or make someone made and let loose with someone, they can't call the cops, say they fear for their life and then the cops come up and say "oh look he bought a gun, that's a legitimate reason to pick him up." A simple scenario that can and does happen (cop friends always have to at least followup on this crap), and now just because you had a bad day, or someone ticked you up, you're treated as a criminal without having committed a crime.
Right now, NICS is woefully underfunded both on fed and state levels, this has mostly been during the Obama administration as well. *note: not blaming Obama, just relating an era* Proper funding MIGHT have stopped Cho from shooting up VA Tech as well, as his mental health was not reported to NICS in a timely manner, although the reasons for that could be anything from understaffed to laziness.
Then the ones who do falsify data on background checks just get a slap on the wrist, or, not even looked into at all. I can't remember the number off hand, but I believe its roughly 1-2% of all falsified background checks are prosecuted.
I still believe, however, a gun registration database is still a list of homes to confiscate weapons from, or, as with when the NJ CCW permit owners had their information released, a "shopping list". Freedom of Information Act would allow this data to be released just as it was then. People who believe just because the 2nd Amendment is there, doesn't mean our right to bear arms can't be infringed. It wouldn't be an outright door to door confiscation as it was in Germany prior to WWII. Slowly whittling away what weapons you can own, who can own them, where you can store them, etc... Not something that will happen overnight.
The cost of gun registration far outweighs its benefits.
By the way, what do you consider a registration database? Some I talk to include ballistics and casing forensics to be included, as a simple serial number isn't enough. However, one trafficking trick is to swap barrels, firing pins around, score the rifling in the barrel some way, or just simple put in a new firing pin. Simply adding a supressor completely negates a ballistics database from tracing that bullet to a gun. Then once you have that gun, what makes you think the serial on it is the original that belongs with that barrel? What if the original gun to that barrel belongs to the gun with the serial scraped off of it?
There are so many simple, cheap and easy ways to get around even ballistics registration, much less simple gun registration. How do you trace a gun with no serial?
completely agree.
this needs to be improved for sure. You won't get an argument out of me on that.
I still see no basis for the fear of government confiscation, but your "shopping list" remark is a valid one. I could support to a measure to make publishing the list of registered firearms a crime as well. One could also have a gun safe and lock up their firearms when they are not at home making the theft of them much more difficult.
For the record, the Nazi's did not disarm the population, only the Jewish population (and not until after they had already started accumulating them in ghetto's). The Nazi regime relaxed gun laws from the preceeding Weimar regime, the myth of Nazi gun control is just that, a myth.
Very valid concerns and difficult to address. One helpful thing is that gangbangers who are responsible for most gun crime are typically not intelligent or motivated enough to do things like swap out firing pins, barrel changes, etc.
I don't necessarily know what the answer here is, but if private sales have to go through an agent and a firearm shows up with the serial # filed off, that sets off a pretty big red flag.
What the heck no semi-auto rifle being used as usual. Why is it that the anti-gun nuts are so eager to take away our rights to own semi-auto rifles when time after time it's proven that hand guns are most often used in criminal acts.
once they get away with it once they WILL go for more.
Probably because their constituents (i.e. the ones in this video) all use hand guns. Only someone with money can afford an assault weapon for the most part.
If the criminal who sold him the gun did a background check he would have found out he was a gang member, and none of this would have happened, I also saw his NRA and that assault rifle in his back pocket
A good example of the NRA's effect on gun control in America. Anyone can get a gun and open fire at will. Thanks NRA.
they get them illegally,you ignoramus!!!!
Harry
And you know this because, Why?
Grandpa,
What part of statistics do you not understand?! This is the Millennium, catch up....
Ex, youre welcome...
So the expert that you are says that criminals always get their guns illegally. Do you really believe that. Remember the key word is always. I caught up long before you were born.
"Statistics" go in more than one direction. You have no idea what you're talking about. Really...
Have a nice weekend...
I think there is more of a problem in you not knowing what I'm talking about. Criminals can get guns in many ways. they can steal them, they can buy them, they can find them. For Harry to call Ex an ignoramus and to imply that criminals always get their guns illegally is what I am talking about. Sorry if that hurts your sensibilities but that's just what I think. I believe that if guns were registered than at least we could try to track them.
So, it's not the individuals fault but the NRA? Take guns from everybody because of hoodrats? Disregard the 2nd amendment? I'm the NRA and it's my fault?
denner37
If your talking to me I never said to take guns away from everybody. I believe in the 2nd amendment. I believe the NRA bears some of the responsibility for not wanting responsible gun regulation. I believe it is the top officials in the NRA that are taking money from Gun Lobby's whose purpose is to sell guns that fight any regulation in their greed.
We need to ban cars because of dui fatalities, ban alcohol because of liver disease and alcoholism, ban soda and cheeseburgers due to obesity and heart attacks. Ban water because of drowning. We really need to ban Liberal Democrats.
ok so if your thinking here works so good pin that on Chicago and watch the wheels fall off it lol. the funny thing here to the other guy grandpa I think yes criminals always do get there guns backdoor. Because if they didn't the first time they shot it ballistics would match it. Maybe quit just readin the front pages of the newspaper and look and see for yourself instead of pressin on others your reason of thinking that you cant even really say why u so strongly believe it
Grandpa,
What part of "Shall Not be Infringed" is so hard for some of you? Registration leads to confiscation. Maybe not today, but history shows that's where it leads to. It's none of the govt's or your business what weapons I have, and look at what happend to those individuals in NY that had their information plastered all over the news. They were chided and criminalized for having gun permits, and a couple of their homes were targeted for theft. Remember that their information was gathered by the Freedom of Information Act, and anyone can obtain it. Why should we punish law abiding citizens when it's the criminals that need to be punished? They get a slap on the wrist and are back out committing more crime.
Grandpa, you chastise a comment that claims criminals always get their guns illegally, yet every example in your next comment is nothing but ways for a criminal to obtain a gun? A CRIMINAL can ONLY get a gun illegally. They can not legally go to a gun store and buy a gun, as by law, that's considered perjury since they would have to fake an ID or lie.
And gun registration does absolutely nothing. Once a firearm is in the wind, really think a criminal is going to register it?
Perfect world laws only apply in a perfect world, but if the world was perfect, would we even need the laws?
Sounds stupid, doesn't it? The hell of it is, Bloomberg is actually trying it and succeeding!!
Thanks to the NRA, anyone from Philadelphia can drive down to Arizona and buy a truck full of guns. They can then drive back and sell them to anyone who has the money to pay for it.
bullsh--
What your talking about sounds like fast and furious guy, the NRA trains cops and military personnel on the proper use of firearms not to mention millions of civilians the NRA is the gold standard world wide for proper training of individuals on the use of firearms. Stop posting ridiculous comments, you need to educate yourself before posting asinine statements.
Correct InfoWarrior, Ex just writes what he thinks without any research as you say.
The 'ol "bandwagon" trick. The problem with his bandwagon is there's room for millions more like him...
No doubt Dog, I see you have some haters on here keep up the good work!
Workin' on it...... Stay tuned...
@info warrior51... I would only make a correction at this place on what you said. This way it is spelled out for those who don't get it...
"the NRA trains cops and military personnel on the proper use of firearms not to mention millions of law abiding civilians...etc and so on"
Criminals are self trained in the hood.
Here's a hot one: repeal the 2nd Amendment or amend the 2nd Amendment. That oughta get some action.
@Vince
Sorry I left that out, they apparently train at the White House as well.
The 2nd amendment is for the arming of well-regulated militias. The 5th amendment confirms it.
[quote]ExYahooUser
The 2nd amendment is for the arming of well-regulated militias. The 5th amendment confirms it.[/quote]
Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about.
Militias are made up from the people that's why it says the rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, you can't have a militia with unarmed civilians
The 5th amendment confirms what?
That he is an idiot
Y'all ARE aware that there is NO provision in the Constitution for a Nationalized standing Army, right? There is a specific provision made for a NAVY, but not for a professional ARMY. In the even of a war at the time of the drafting of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, the CITIZENS were subject to the Government calling them up to defend their country. ALL citizens. It was somewhat like a Draft, except that there was very little training of the citizenry involved. THIS is why it mentions a well-regulated MILITIA.
Since we now have a PROFESSIONAL Army - the ARMY is the "well regulated Militia" that the Second Amendment is referring to. You people can't seem to understand that a document that is over 200 years old has to be read in CONTEXT with the historical information. Our country has not remained the way it was in 1789 when the Bill of Rights was drafted and ratified.
Cat is correct, the "militia" at that time were the individual citizens. Mothing has happened since the 2nd Amendment was written to contradict the individual right to bear arms. The courts have upheld it multiple times.
Nothing has happened since? Holy cow. You just skipped over 200 years of American cultural development, the rise from a well-regulated militia to world power, and the evolution of muskets to atomic weapons in one remarkably ignorant statement. This is what reasonable people are up against in this debate.
Read this one!
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311
10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section
313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
@Ex - why don't you and the rest of the anti-freedom idiots finish reading the rest of that? It goes on to say "the right of the people". But that would be a fact, and we know you guys just ignore those.
@upset - what reasonable people? The ones that want to ban a gun based on appearance? The ones that think they should be allowed to know who has guns and where they live? The ones that blindly follow and parrot whatever the media says? I posted both of these links upstairs but I think I'll repost them here.
http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495
http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/featu...n/2081848359001
The gunman appears to be not blk. as indicated.
That guy looks white to me or he is a very light skinned black man.
members of our black community at their usual best!!! animals!!!!
Well, the guy is white so now what?
shameonyu -I agree the dude looks wht. They got it wrong on purpose.
ex, I see your an anti 2nd Amendment person. I also see your not very knowledgable on the subject.
I have to admit your linking the 5th and 2nd amendments together is the first time I've seen that nonsense. The 5th Amendment is regarding your rights as a suspect in a crime. How you link that to the 2nd Amendment is a mystery.
Your right the 2nd Amendment involves militia, but you left out the 2nd part of it. The right of the people to bear arms will not be infringed. No need to get excited that is a common error by folks on your side.
The NRA has nothing to do with straw buying. They are against it. The federal law is on the books. The problem is it has been seldom enforced by the feds.
Federal Law Must not apply in Arizona according to Yahoo?
It sure didn't apply to Eric Holder when it came to Fast and Furious.
Paul,
Good post bro... You're right on the money...
Isn't it amazing that the nra is blamed all the time and thanks Paul cuz I find it funn that they are against straw buying and are the only ones still worried about the kids in schools feds just threw that to the side after they juiced it
Don't you realize that Creek Dog is the authority on everything? He spends so much time on these message boards he must not have much of a life.
Sounds like you spend just as much time posting comments as him if you know that he is always on the forums, just saying.
Yes he posts quite a bit and is usually the voice of common sense on here. So is JS in SD and Iowa Scooter Tramp.
Thanks guys...
JoJo,
If I were the authority on "anything", I'd at least enforce it.... I'll leave my life out of it. It's too complicated for the ill informed....
Creek puppy - Can you be any more condescending? Please move to Mogadishu. You can carry and shoot whatever weapons you want, whenever you want. You can also enjoy the benefits of such lose gun laws (human carcasses in the street and little to no security).
Why don't you move to North Korea, our right to keep and bear arms is protected by the Bill of Rights fool, you don't have to live here there are plenty of countries around the world where citizens are disarmed.
Relax Warrior, he's always "upset" about everything by choice.
Thanks bro...
I wonder how long we have until there is marshal law in America and curfews on travel between states and cities. I bet it will be much sooner that you think. Captivity is just around the corner and we have no one to blame but our selves. Greedy money voted and sold our future to third world countries. in charge they will cost all their freedom. America will be a blood bath of violence when it happens.
How can anyone be identified in this vid with everyone wearing hoods. That's what needs to be outlawed----wearing hoods indoors in a public place, like most banks do.
Yeah lets ban hoods but not register guns, that's a great idea.
Sounds good. Let the little punks wear that crap in 95 degree Texas weather.
So how are ya gonna register all them guns out there in circulation, grandpa?
Rex
Just because they were not registered at one point in time does not mean new sales couldn't be. Probably other ways if we could have a discourse about it instead of the "my way or the highway mentality" of the NRA. and the "my way or the highway of the far left" that just wants to take all guns away.
More perfect world rhetoric, Grandpa. Ok, so register just new sales. Again, once a gun is in the wind, how do you track it? Gun shipments are stolen, guns are bought/traded/sold in criminal organizations with surprising speed. Register a gun once, great, but when it changes hands and it's never re-registered? What's the point?
Again, you forget to consider the criminal element in all this. The point is to find a way to disarm the criminals without infringing on the rights of law-abiding citizens.
Hey Ya'all..!! Why can't I legally own some bazookas? ..or some rocket launchers?
Heck, I want to know why, with the way that all you rednecks interpret it, it is that the 2nd Amendment doesn't allow me to own and use a dozen or so howitzers?!! Come on, Creek Boy, yer a smart fella, why don't you s'plain it to us all??
Listen up people. The 2nd Amendment does not apply today. Those days are lonnnnnnng gone!
The founders of this great nation never intended it to be used by ruthless gun manufacturers and rebellious rednecks! Or as a means to arm criminal gangs and flood the city streets with millions of handguns!!
It was meant to enable a citizen to own a musket!!! That's it!! It did Not permit a citizen to own an arsenal of extremely lethal and highly effective tools of mass slaughter!!
In my opinion, the N.R.A. and weapons manufacturers are all guilty of crimes against humanity. Every single time I read about a criminal using a handgun, or a psychopathic lunatic's hellish rampage, or an innocent child's 'accidental' death, I blame the weapons manufacturers and the N.R.A. and it's members. I blame the redneck politicians. I blame 'gun enthusiasts'. And I blame the people who back them up and make this insane nightmare possible. Then, lastly, I blame the perpetrator(s)!
I say we begin charging the weapons manufacturers and the N.R.A. as co-defendants in each and every criminal act that involves the criminal use of a firearm!! And! I say we allow victims to seek damages against them as well!!!
And, finally, I say that we enact the strictest weapons laws the world has ever seen, declare martial law, and confiscate every single banned weapon in the nation. Why? Because I think 99% of you so-called 'lawful' gun owners are just as dangerous as the 'gang banger' in the video above, but I also know that you're all far, far more lethal.
PAV
I agree with you.
There were days when you and I could have walked into a hardware store and purchased a Thompson Sub. You can't do that any more. You can't own a full auto unless you have the proper federal permit and the weapon falls into a certain timeline. There must have been a reason they "disallowed" the purchase of full autos, bazookas, 106 recoilless, etc. Maybe is because we just don't need them.
Proud, First, thankfully your not in a position of authority because pretty much everything you believe goes against the constitution of this country.
Second, if you would educate yourself and read the personal writings of our founding fathers you would find you are totally wrong in what you think they were saying. They believed, and the reason for the 2nd Amendment, that the civilian population should be armed as a warning to the government not to go astray from the constitution. Pretty much to protect the public from people like you if they should get into a position of power.
I know it's a waste of time and effort, but do the research instead of parroting what the anti 2nd Amendment crowd tries to promote.
Delusional !!!!!!!!
yeah, yeah PAV. Your comment is riddled with "stoopid". First of all you can own a "bazooka" were you lucky enough to actually find one and had the money to buy it (doubtful), all you need besides the cash is an FBI background check back to your diaper pooping days (not too long ago apparently) fingerprints, photos, an approved place to store it and a federal "Destructive Device" stamp...mo money. Then you wait, and wait, and wait... The 2nd Amendment applies just as do all the others...although I'm sure you'd like to ditch the 1St as well. So you think if George Washington had some brave patriots come forth with AR's and AK's to help him, he would have sent them home to fetch a musket? right. " I blame, I blame, I blame"...well, who gives a she-yit who you blame, that's just your opinion and as we know, everybody has one as well as the standard issue butthole. So you think being a Proud American Vet gives you any more creedence than anyone else? Reference the preceding sentence. I'm a vet too, so that makes my statement trump yours.....right? Idiot.
Yeah, blame the perp last. Typical condescending liberal way of looking at things. The Courts have continually upheld the Right, so it looks like you have been overruled, besides being emotionally overwrought.
Vet,
I'll explain it plain and simple, you're not a Veteran. You're a poser. It shows in your beliefs and misguided mind set. Either that or you were dishonorably discharged...
See what I mean. That's like charging the bread company for your buddies death for chocking on a slice of bread.
Like charging the water company for a kid who drowned in a swimming pool.
See where I'm going here?! Misguided mindset.....
I doubt that you are a veteran of the United States of America military. If you were you would be for the rights of the people you fought to protect. Unless of course, you were so afraid that all you did was go through basic training and were kicked out for being a wimp. Our proud men and women of the US military fought for the rights of the people, not the right of a government that wants to take down America.
I want to thank each and everyone of the vets that fought for us and our rights as Americans!!!
Gangs, thugs etc. do not get their weapons legally. Unless you think those stolen vans, parked in alleys, dark corners or empty warehouses are all legal. They don't go to a gun store and fill out the papers and wait for a background check. They steal them from each other or from the homes they enter illegally or buy them out of the back of some illegal van etc. I guess they can get them out of the dumpster, you know, where the last criminal threw them after murdering an unarmed, law abiding citizen. where do the guys in the vans etc. get them? Through South America, via Mexico. Of course, they possibly filtered through the fast and furious program to get to Mexico, SAmerica before they came to be in the possession of the illegal buyers/sellers in the vans.
PVA, YOU MAKE ME SICK! DO NOT DISGRACE OUR FINE VETS BY CALLING YOURSELF ONE. EVEN IF YOU DID SERVE, which I still doubt, YOU ARE A DISGRACE TO OUR COUNTRY.
cottageaccents... You're welcome.
On another note, be careful what you write when giving people @!$%#....
They can ban you on here for being "honest". ;-)
Have a good weekend....
its amazing that those folks that say the 2nd amendment is outdated and should be repealed aren't saying the same thing about the 1rst.
Proud,
no where in the 2nd amendment does it say that I can ONLY own a musket. what the hell are you reading? the last person you blame is the actually perpetrator of the crime? what are you, delusional? are you off your meds or just that stupid? if the US government were to try and ban all firearms and declare martial law to start confiscating them it would start a civil war. how many innocent civilians would lose their life because the government would be acting tyrannical. so you are advocating violence? if you really are a veteran (and the peace corps doesn't count as military service) then you took an oath to defend the Constitution from all enemies, ALL ENEMIES, both foreign and domestic.
When the 1st amendment was written was there Radio, TV, Internet etc. etc. Could our forefathers even have envisioned things like a Lap Top and Surfing the Net?
When I enlisted in the military I took an Oath, An Oath that I still Uphold (didn't have an expiration/release date) to this day though many years have passed.
ProudAmerican.Veteran get off the computer and get your fountain pen &parchment paper ! guns had advanced with the 2nd ammendment as the 1st has advanced with the computer ,don't infringe on the 2nd you will loose the 1st ammendment too as well as all others !!!
@creek dog
Thank you, I know they can ban me for telling the truth. But, thank you for reminding me. Not new to reading the post, but seldom do I reply.
But, I can not stand for anyone, and I mean anyone to "pick on" or in anyway put down our service men and women. I don't care what branch you served under or if you were the marines that took my brother to the planes to dismantle and or destroy crucial materials, and brought him back safely every time. I will not stand quietly in the night. You may have been one that went in with my cousin/brother that fought on the ground in Viet Nam. You may have been one that got Bid Laden. I do not care. You may have been the one on the radio back home filtering intel. I do not care. In my eyes you are all heroes. Don't spit on, yell at, don't utter a word against them. You will see my wrath each and every time.
And, Yes! I do get mad every time I hear or see anything of Jane Fonda I get fighting mad. I also get mad when people say things against prisoners of war, including John McCain. They deserve respect and honor. They served their country well. No matter is you are for or against McCain he deserves your respect. There is a reason his body shows signs of wear, it is called SERVICE TO YOUR COUNTRY. For your rights!!! Do not take that lightly. Many these days will not fight for your life, much less your freedoms.
Copy that...
Out...
The acidic vitriol against PVA is astounding. Just because he offers up a different opinion, he's called out as "stoopid", "sickening" and a "disgrace". Of course those who do not agree and do the name calling are righteous. What a bunch of mooks. I stopped being entertained when you were calling out "Grandpa" who, if I recall, is a retired police officer. Just a bunch of bullies with nothing to do. Out . . .
Getting back to the subject at hand. I have watched the video twice. It look to me like its a white guy and not a black guy. Hard to tell from the video, but ....
Poor Lighting? Switched Hoodies?
Just guessing, but they probably made that determination from statements by the victims.
Yeah. It definitely looks like a white guy to me to. Seems weird. You can see his features and they certainly do not look typical of African Americans.
And secondly, all of these guys look like thugs. They definitely do not look like regular customers.
Let's look at our "victims" for a minute shall we? They don't exactly appear to be the "law abiding" type if you catch my meaning. In fact, I'm reminded of an old Irish drinking song. Sing along if you know the words. "OOOOOO...We're just 6 hooded figures hanging around an ATM. Waiting to see if someon....FU@K! FU@K! FU@CK! OUCH! FU@K! I'M SPINNING AROUND ON THE FLOOR! FU@K!"
But seriously, I'm a little pi$$ed that the shooter fired 10 rounds through that door and couldn't manage one kill-shot on what looks like four very large merekats leering through that glass. Don't kid yourselves folks. These "victims" were looking through that glass waiting on that "shooter". They were not waiting on grandma or their kids or any other B.S.
If we would have had tougher gun control laws in this country, this incident would never have occurred.
Big, I hope that was a sarcastic remark.
Sadly, It's not Paul.