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James Macpherson / AP
North Dakota Gov. Jack Dalrymple, a Republican, hasn't said where he stands on the measures, which the Republican-dominated House approved on Friday.
North Dakota lawmakers approved measures Friday that would effectively ban abortion in the state, including a ballot referendum that would let voters declare that life begins at conception.
Republican Gov. Jack Dalrymple, who has three legislative days to decide whether to sign or veto two of the three measures, hasn't signaled where he stands on the bills. The referendum doesn't need his signature and will be part of the state's 2014 general election ballot.
The measures, which had previously been approved by the state Senate and were passed Friday by the House, would ban abortions after 20 weeks except in medical emergencies and require doctors performing abortions to have admitting privileges at a local hospital.
The Red River Women's Clinic in Fargo, North Dakota's sole abortion provider, said the hospital provision "is clearly intended to regulate abortion out of existence in North Dakota."
"Admitting privileges are not easily come by under any circumstances, but more importantly, such a requirement gives hospitals the power to decide whether abortion is even available in the state," the clinic said in a statement.
The clinic vowed to stay open and asked supporters on its Twitter feed to call Dalrymple to urge him to veto the measures.
Related: 40 years after Roe v. Wade, more states restricting abortion
Rep. Vernon Laning, a Republican from Bismarck, defended the hospital measure as a safeguard for women who have complications during their pregnancies.
"It ensures the physician is well-qualified to address the problem," Laning said on the House floor. "I certainly think a woman undergoing a procedure would want as many safety precautions as possible."
But Rep. Kylie Oversen, a Democrat from Grand Forks, said House Republicans had taken a giant step toward making North Dakota the most dangerous state in the U.S. for pregnant women, NBC station KMOT of Minot reported.
"As a young woman who has not yet had the privilege of becoming a mother, I want to know that when I make a decision to do so, any already difficult decision that I must face with my physicians and my family will not be complicated by legal matters, by an overreach of state government," Oversen said.
Opponents also said the measures would force the state to spend millions of dollars defending them against legal challenges 40 years after the U.S. Supreme Court struck down many state restrictions on abortion in its Roe v. Wade decision.
Arkansas Gov. Mike Beebe cited that concern earlier this month in vetoing what he called a "blatantly unconstitutional" measure that banned abortions in that state after only 12 weeks. The Legislature overrode the veto, and that ban will go into effect in May.
The ballot measure, meanwhile, asks North Dakotans whether "the inalienable right to life of every human being at any stage of development must be recognized and protected" — that is, to declare a fetus to be a person from the moment of conception.
The practical effect of the referendum, if approved by voters, would be to amend the state constitution to completely ban abortion, without exceptions for rape, incest or the health of the woman. Supporters said they hope it can serve as the basis for a legal challenge to Roe v. Wade.
Keith Mason, president of Personhood USA, a national anti-abortion-rights activist group, said the referendum gives North Dakotans the chance to "(pave) the way for human rights nationwide."
"We applaud the North Dakota House and Senate for their willingness to protect all of the people in their state," Mason said in a statement.
But Ilyse Hogue, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, a pro-abortion-rights organization, said she was "confident that the voters of North Dakota will see through this blatant attack on Roe v. Wade and vote it down at the ballot box."
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When we look to the unborn child, the real issue is not when life begins, but when love begins.
Former PENN Gov. Casey, a blue dog Democrat, whose name is in the major Supreme Court abortion case in 1992 (Planned Parenthood v. Casey). One of significant reason for Clinton's election in 1992 was that many women feared Roe was in danger, voting in larger number
Its funny that repubs are still fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. When will they learn to drop the issue and move on. I am now sure that republican leaders suffers from a learning disability because its obvious they have learned nothing from recent elections. Keep up the great work guys lol
The moment of conception obviously does create a potential human life, subject to the vagaries of 9 months +/- of gestation. Many will die of natural causes, known as miscarriages. But until said gestating potential human can survive outside mommy's womb, it should always be that woman's decision whether to nurture or terminate her pregnancy. After the baby can survive if born, only the most dire of unexpected situations should lead to ending the pregnancy, and then, if feasible, the baby's life should be saved.
And I might add a question: Will Nebraska, if they pass the referendum, change their driver's licenses to note date of conception instead of date of birth? I'm quite sure they will want to be consistent.
Veronica what people have learned from recent elections, is dont drink the koolaid, your hero obama is the worst president of the 20th century.
Gary, please bring yourself into the 21st century.
The worst Presidents of the 20th century are both Republican - Herbert Hoover of Great Depression fame & Tricky Dickk (Nixon) of Watergate fame.
Don't forget Bush,Jr. The year 2000 was actually the last year of the 20th Century. So, he can be awarded the worst elected President of TWO centuries. (Even if he did not take office until 2001.)
You may add GWB to that list of worst president. But one thing for sure Obama had to deal with the worst congress in history. Obama was re-elected, dems gained seats in the house and senate and yet you here telling me Obama is the problem? Gary your funny
Bush Jr is definitely the worst of the 21st century
2 unfunded wars
Great Recession caused in part by War in Iraw and the other war
PATRIOT Act - freedoms taken away
Destruction of world economy too by the recession
tax cuts for the rich
.
.
.
more costs to the economy - the deficits...and costly care to our veterans who deserve the care, of course. But the Ryan budget will cut such care, too.
Gary, you, and other Republicans like you, make me wonder if Republicans have any intelligence at all. You're so ignorant, you don't even know what century we are in.
Why is it libs want it both ways? They don't want people to have a gun to possibly get kids killed but it's OK to murder one if they so decide. Do you think God is on your side? Think again!
Its real christian like to have a bible in your left hand and a AR15 in the right. I guess god also hates the poor as much as you repubs do. Blubal your funny
Gee, Veronica, at a prolife dinner last night, we were given some pretty irrefutable statistics concerning the drastic decrease in the number of remaining abortion clinics nationwide....several states have completely eliminated them. Maybe you're just living 40 years in the past.
I guess no Democrat has ever screwed up in the White House? Are you guys completely full of SH!t or just fifty percent?
Spider have you looked at recent polls that say most women stay away from repubs? I guess they have no interest in winning other demographics lol
Baylor, dems are not perfect but when repubs screws us, they really screws us just look at GWB. We are still paying the price of him stealing the election in 2000
Don't have a clue as to the point Pig was attempting to make, but applaud the actions of North Dakota on the abortion issue. Much to the dismay of many, this will have a tremendous impact across the US.
God is still answering our prayers.
They intrinsically value the life of the zygote much more than the sentient female parent, apparently.
Excellent! Less murders in the name of "choice". Thank God for strong, independent states that call abortion what it is... murder.
another religious wacko......
Timothy1Mil
I agree. Nothing says fun like the trial after an abortion.
Oh, you mean we don't put people on trial for an abortion? Then it doesn't sound much like murder to me.
Nothing like a good bit of rhetoric to end the night with.
Well, Pigotry, I would probably choose Warren G. Harding or Calvin Coolidge over Hoover, because they did nothing to stop the business practices that led to the Great Depression (which Hoover handled so badly).
blubal -- "Can't have it both ways???" Conservative Republicans oppose contraception and sex education; when a woman gets pregnant they insist that she carry the child to term; and then, when she is a single mother trying to raise a child, they refuse to provide the help she needs. When Republican values change -- when they show that they care as much about kids who have already been born as they do about the 'rights' of a fetus, they might have a leg to stand on....
Well i know i should start to invest in wire hangers
Years of contraception and public school sex education haven't done crap, morrigan. THe open legs of men and women continue to produce children out of wedlock ( or couples see sex merely as recreation rather than the only way humans reproduce).
Distastefully, now gays and lesbians scream their plight to marry is "the last civil rights issue." Yet, extinguishing unborn Americans isn't even considered a human rights issue. Pathetic is the nation who has no problem killing its most vulnerable and its future: its developing unborn.
"spit or swollow" problem solved !!!
Good if you want to kill your own baby do it yourself, take responsibility and carry out the act yourself! Women resorted to that back in the day when having a child out of wedlock was the worst possible thing. It isn't anymore and there are teens who get pregnant and don't live in fear that their parents will throw them out or kill them as much. If you are capable of wanting to kill your child then I think you should be the one to do it, and don't use my tax money to pay for your murder and your irresponsibility either.
"What an irony that a society confronted with plastic bags filled with the remains of aborted babies should be more concerned about the problem of recycling the plastic"... - Winifred Egan
Who do these MEN think they are? What gives them the right to decide what is best for my health? Why are we still fighting this battle 40 years later? These personhood laws, if they get passed, also threaten access to most forms of contraception
Why do they think it's wrong for the government to infringe on their 2nd amendment right to bear arms but it's more than okay to try and outlaw a woman's right to control her own body? The party of smaller government, my arse. It's mostly men in the anti-choice movement. 77% of the anti-choice movement is made up of men. They have no womb. They don't get pregnant and will never have to face the trauma of an unwanted pregnancy.
This is MY BODY. This is our legal right as American women. It's as if these boys think we don't have a brain cell working and they have to try and tell "the little lady" what to do. What this is really about is their fear and hatred towards women's power and our sexuality. It's not about a fetus and we all know it. The WAR ON WOMEN continues. How would they like it if we tried to tell them what to do with their willies? Don't think they'd like it much. We don't exist to be living, breathing incubators for fetuses. Some of us don't even want kids. This is abhorrent. And scary.
Veronica25, when a law is unjust it is the duty of those of us who see the injustice to continue to fight against it until it is repealed. It does matter if it's been 40 or 400 years we must stand up for justice.
Lol yea good luck in having that repealled. I guess repubs have given up on winning national elections
The only thing abhorrent about this situation is that some women are deluded enough to think it's their body after conception. If you aren't responsible enough to ensure any unplanned pregnancy does not occur, then you should have to deal with the direct result of your indiscretion. A pregnancy affects 3 human beings, only one of them selfishly claims the right to end it.
Unfortunately in most cases the men are nowhere to be found to ask them how they feel about it
Maybe there is still hope that abortion can be totally outlawed in the United States soon!!!
IMO a good & healthy path for U.S. would be one of widespread respectful dialogue among persons of all differing views -- I suspect that our societies are not yet ready to legislate or adjudicate our way to positive resolution. If only anti-abortion hearts would dialogue & love (& sometimes even fall in love with) pro-choice hearts & vice versa. Add into these dialogues hearts that are pro-quality-of-life, pro-education, pro-justice, pro-orphan, pro-employment, pro-health from womb to tomb, and with perspectives from 3000 B.C.E. to 2100 C.E., considering hearts all around the world.
I see no goodness in presuming that significant portions of our population are sinful because their life experiences have brought them to judge serious matters of the heart in ways different from how I might judge similar serious matters of the heart.
If we trust one another, believe in one another, to share personal life stories of decisions & experiences that we've done our best to discern, to provide for our families, to transcend rape/date-rape/incest/spousal-rape, to face varying degrees & natures of birth defects, struggles to feed/heat/clothe/medicate/educate our children, if we empathize with widely different experiences from youth & society & upbringing & culture, if we but hear each others' hearts....
> Veronica25 Its funny that repubs are still fighting a battle that was lost 40 years ago. When will they learn to drop the issue and move on.... ...they have learned nothing from recent elections.
> Veronica25 Spider have you looked at recent polls that say most women stay away from repubs? I guess they have no interest in winning other demographics...
Veronica - I'm sure you are correct for many issues and many politicians, and it often is just about toeing the party line, on whatever side they are on. However, many Republicans and many Democrats really, truly believe in some issues. And, if a person truly believes that an unborn child is still a human child, then I can't fault them for trying to protect that child. You (and to use your words, 'most women') may not believe in the same thing - but not all Republicans are just ''old men trying to control women''. Some of them truly believe that the unborn are humans who need protection, and it they truly believe that, then they can't change that belief just to win demographics.
So, for many people, it's not a religious issue, or a Republican issue, or a man-vs-women issue. For many people, it's simply a ''is this a child or not?'' issue - and if you believe the unborn are still children, then they believe that the unborn deserve protection - even if that costs votes and demographics and elections.
See Rhyno, you just proved my point about the true reason behind the anti-choice movement. Women should be punished for their sexuality. You don't care about the fetus, only making women pay. Contraception fails, some people get caught in a moment and make a mistake. But it is OUR BODY and WE DO GET TO DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS TO IT. Women's rights trump fetal rights EVERY SINGLE TIME. My body and my choice, got it? Stay out of our wombs and stay out of our bedrooms.
Republicans really couldn't care less about actual living children, as the bills many of them propose would cut healthcare, food programs, funding education, all that helps the poor and the children (you know, ones forced into a republican world where they begin their un-wantedness in life) which is conducive in educating those to prevent pregnancies. What's next, you ask?, they'll probaly begin making laws to make women get pregnant. The saying for these RWNJs, "Love the fetus", hate the child" seems to have a good deal of reality to it now.
Not only do these republicans want to stop a woman's right to an abortion, they also want to regulate any and all aspects of a woman's reproductive system. Ban birth control pills, you know, the pill women can take because they supposedly have a right to not get pregnant, which is turning out to be untrue, and any other means of preventing pregnancy. Many RW state legislators are proposing laws, which forces women go through unnecessary transvaginal ultrasounds, and that's just a example of anti-women legislation (misogyny). Name one f'ing law proposed or passed that restricts a man's reproductive rights. Name one law on the books that blocks a man from getting a vasectomy, or restricts his use of medicines for ED.
For a party that stresses less government in people's lives, they do the exact opposite on social issues. The only time less government counts, is when it means the wealthy, big banks and corporations are not regulated, while those who work for them get paid crap wages or don't have the ability to game the financial system to their favor, while the wealthy get bailed out for failing on their own businesses breaking finance ethics or actual finance laws.
I've learned one thing in my 35 years of voting, since Reagan, republicans all run on less government and staying out of the private lives of citizens. But they do the exact opposite when they get power, they spend like crazy, while regulating people to their religious whims while being the party of abject misogyny.
"My Body ? War on Women ?" I am a conservative, but pro choice. HOWEVER, Killing a baby is not freedom, it's killing. And how is limiting abortion to 20 weeks banning abortion as the article suggests ? How about this; If you can't decide whether you should keep or kill your baby within 20 weeks maybe you shouldn't be having sex ... How about, we make a commitment to having a beautiful baby, and THEN have one ?
It would be foolish to sign and expensive to defend this unconstitutional law, the Governor knows this.
Todd i can say most women because poll shows that is the case. My problem with repubs is, they care so much about a fetus but couldnt care less about the kids starving in this country. If they had their way, they would cut all govt assistance and let them die. Another issue is sex education, they want to cut it out of schools even though stats show that when kids are educated about sex they become more responsible. They are tooooo backwards on some issues
You know I'm sick & tired of hearing "that its my body", maybe it is your body that you didn't create, but let me tell you, its a good thing your mother decided not to abort you! Once you get pregnant, you don't have any right to murder your baby, that baby has every right to life! Have you ever heard of adoption? Why don't you elect to get your legs, arms, ripped off, remember its your choice. And have your brain sucked out. Geez, do you not think this might be somewhat painful? What did this little innocent life do? He/she didn't ask to be conceived? But you think you have the right to torture this baby, and it is slow torture. And then this baby gets a burial in a garbage can or plastic bag or a freezer! We don't even treat animals like this! North Dakota has to be a great place to live, where they value the life of a innocent pre-born. No mother has the right to abort/torture her baby because of inconvenience, in case of rape, this baby didn't rape you, so why are you punishing him/her? Babies in the womb are humans, God knew each baby before conception!!
Veronica and other dems on here: let me ask you a question. I am from Bismarck in North Dakota, born and lived here my entire life. You keep rambling about conservative this and republican that, but we are actually a very progressive state i.e. our state is very close to passing medical marijuana laws. Our newspapers have followed this since it began. The proposed legislation would let US ND VOTERS CHOOSE HOW WE FEEL ON THE SUBJECT. Who the hell are you to tell me and my fellow ND voters how our state should operate? We should absolutely have the right to choose. I could not be more pleased that the democratic process is working. You don't tell us how our state makes laws and we surely don't tell you what to do with yours. Meanwhile, we'll continue to be the richest and smartest (no offense to others) state in this country. God bless the US, god bless ND, and think a little bit about democracy and quit insulting those of a different opinion than yours.
@repojam-screw off dude, that is the worst excuse I've ever heard. So I guess when black men, women and children were lynched for 150 YEARS, it was ok because the offenders were not prosecuted for murder. What a disgrace.
@morrigan-what are you even talking about? Could you possibly take a more bigoted stance? I would be stunned by your level of ignorance, but one you don't even care to learn that what your saying is wrong and two (and most sadly) too many people are just like you. Republicans do not oppose helping single mothers, that's absolutely absurd. They do support trimming down Medicare/Medicaid, and why the heck not?? Both are bankrupt. Both spend untold amounts of money that are WASTED (wasted here meaning it is given to those who have no other income and choose to live that way. The role of government is to create equal opportunity for each person, not to financially support every one of its citizens. Again, just to make sure all understand this: no one wants to take away money from single mothers who are struggling to get by, but we do wanna take it away from deadbeat, leech people who think they are entitled to gov money). We also want to take some away from SS, which is a much better program than the former two (because it helps disabled, handicapped, etc) but still has money that doesn't help people. Republicans want new systems (or at least redesigned systems) because this country is in debt. Throwing money randomly at gov programs will solve nothing; check your history books if you dont believe me. That is unacceptable. Too many people nowadays use kids as a crutch to get more gov money than is reasonable. That's what it's about. Obviously no one wants to take money from the elderly, or the handicapped, or poor single mothers. Stop watching msnbc and get neutral unbiased news for once (and if anybody even mentions Fox News, they should be punched. Not all republicans watch Fox News, in fact the vast majority of us think its as stupid as dems do). Please check your facts people. The true logical position of the parties is this: republicans think long term good of the country, and dems think give money back to all. Both are respectable, but only one is practical.
Concerned who are you kidding, ND has always voted for republicans for prez and im sure th repubs run your state. I doubt most will consider that very liberal
Pamela, the POINT IS, it's not YOUR PREGNANCY. It's NOT YOUR BODY. And you have zero right and I mean ZERO RIGHT to tell me what to do with my body. If you don't believe in abortion rights, it's simple. DON'T HAVE ONE. But you and your cronies need to stay the hell out stranger's wombs. Not your fetus. Not your body. NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. When will you wingnuts get that?
Concerned Bystander-3575299
I like that, making a choice on how to limit choice. Here in the US we get to express our opinions whether you like it or not. So who are we? Just people with an opinion. Just like you.
That's a pretty good leap of logic. I think the big difference that you miss is that one is a crime (MURDER) and the other is not (ABORTION). If abortion was a crime and we prosecuted and held trials for it then your comparison would make sense.
If you look at an apple and an orange long enough, they don't become the same thing.
You should take your own advice.
Really? Cause for the past 20 years we had two democrat senators (kent conrad and byron dorgan) and a democrat rep (earl pomeroy). As it stands now (all three recently retired) we have a republican rep (Kevin Kramer) and both a republican and dem senator (john hoeven and heidi heitkamp). So why don't you tell me again about whether my state is repub or dem. see, unlike other places we actually vote FOR THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB. You don't even know about ND, you just assume we're hardcore republican rednecks, when we couldn't possibly be more different. We believe in character, maybe you should try the same.
Concerned, you have reading issues in your replies to repo and Morrigan, especially the bigoted part you claim. Your state is also not the richest. In fact, North Dakota ranks right up (err, I mean down there) the there with the worst tax revenue provided to receiving fed money ratio in the country, taking more fed revenue than the state provides in fed taxes. In fact, ND ranks in the bottom ten in that ratio. Let me also add the fact that ND is hardly anything regarding being "progressive", something most RWers would satanic and evil. Your state votes blood red every election cycle, hardly any progressives win in those cycles.
I'm beginning to think that Veronica works for MSN. How is it possible that she gets to post her views way before anyone else does? I saw this article 4 hours ago, and NO ONE was allowed to post anything. I believe her to be a troll sent by MSN.
Votes for the bst person for the job? Why did ND vote for Bush twice? Now tell me when was the last time ND voted for a democratic president? Im only been old enough to vote in the last two elections and can gladly tell you why i stay away from repubs
Unhappy your funny
@repojam- you made the comparison dude. If that's not what you meant you shouldn't have said it. And btw, if my state passes the current bills on the table, IT IS A CRIME. And if it doesn't pass, then it doesn't and that's what we as a state chose. Trust me, I solidly believe in democracy; are you sure you do? If this bill is passed, would accept that that's what the voters decided? Based on your responses I don't think so. And please stop using the tired "republicans wanna take away a woman's right to choose" nonsense. You're correct on that point, we're talking about apples and oranges. I don't look at the issue as a woman's right to choose, it's about the conceived child's protection. If a woman's life is endangered, do I favor aborting the unborn child to save the grown person? WELL DUH. Do I favor a woman simply not wanting the "inconvenience" of a child and thereby ending its chance at life? HELL NO. Why can't there be a reasonable right to choose? By the way, this isn't in response to you it's just a side bar i have to say from other comments, but we're talking CONCEIVED CHILDREN here (i.e. sperm/eggs do not apply). And furthermore, never have I wanted to "control women's bodies" or some other similar nonsense. Really you guys? I think you're looking too much at yourself while I'm looking at the unborn child. It's sincerely, and not to be harsh or anything, but its not about you. It's about the child. It's not some misogynistic crusade. It's a serious inquiry into the well being of unborn children. If you can't understand that, then you probably shouldn't be reproducing anyways.
Concerned Bystander-3575299
The bill doesn't make it a crime, it limits the availability and who can perform it. The state isn't making the choice to make abortion completely illegal.
The contrast I made was between a legal act and an illegal act. Your comparison was 2 illegal acts. Unless you are suggesting lynching and murder were ever legal here post slavery.
We're both expressing an opinion legally. What suggests I don't believe in democracy? Where did I ever suggest that they don't have the right to make this choice? The contrast I drew was with people calling abortion (a legal act) murder (an illegal act).
The voters can decide what they like. I never said they shouldn't have the right to choose.
I never mentioned a political party and never made that argument.
Again, in case you missed it, my comment was in direct regards to comparing abortion to murder.
@tommy-no, I read them correctly. And msn themselves declared nd one of the most money saturated states in the union. Your stats are complete misrepresentations. The reason we don't pay much in taxes is because we have 700,000 people total. The reason why we get so much federal aid is because of the recent oil boom in our state; i.e. the money is going to bolster the oil developments. Way to blur the truth. furthermore, to prove my point, we have the #1 lowest jobless rate at 3.5%, we have a high average household income as well as a high average personal income, and our state government is flush with tax money from the oil fields. I live here dude. I know my state.
One final thing to Veronica- I'm 19, I've never voted for a president, but I assure you I wouldn't vote for bush. I'm a political science major, and trust me, it's not just republicans who make bad presidents (anyone remember jimmy carter and the Iran hostage fiasco? How about Kennedy, who was a good president besides the hundreds of affairs he had? How about LBJ, who botched the war in Vietnam that we could have won?) listen, we all need to back off the presidents. I'm a republican, and I couldn't be more proud of Barack because I think he represents this country well, both domesticity and foreign. They have the hardest job on earth, in fact I all of history, so ill never criticize a pres, only give them my utmost respect. Oh, and btw, Nixon, while obviously a crook, was one of the greatest foreign affairs president ever. In fact, he's second in my book only to FDR. Don't believe me? Google what he accomplished, I'm sick of typing so much. Anyways, the point is that presidents are not cut and dry good or bad.
Concerned Bystander-3575299
Your comments are the best ones I have heard here
@repojam- first off, I apologize, I'm typing a lot here on an iPad lol, and when I should be clarifying who I'm talking to more, I just can't do it, so some of the comments arent necessarily directed exactly at you, even if I make it seem that way (again, my fault).
Lynching, as murder, was illegal and yet people walked scot free for it ALL THE TIME, north and south, post civil war to pre civil rights act of 64. I actually think its a pretty good comparison, obviously it's not exact because its a comparison. Also remember that a Supreme Court decision is subject to be overturned at any time, and can furthermore be overrode by a constitutional amendment. A Supreme Court decision is not supreme law, otherwise we would still be living in a "separate but equal" reality. Furthermore, if you read texts that the founding fathers left behind, I think you would be shocked at the emphasis on state rights over national government. I know I know, such a tea party answer, but it is true, and while I personally get that we can't have the states deciding everything for themselves (the civil war pretty much proved that), social issues like education and healthcare are constitutionally delegated to the states. The federal government is able to skirt this by withholding money from states amongst other options. Sorry if you already knew this stuff, a lot of people don't so hopefully it helps someone.
Wait a minute concerned, you're saying the oil boom is federally subsidized, yet at the same time your state is flush with money from oil fields that are subsidized by the feds, that is screwed up. You mean corporate welfare actually exists (sarcasm here, but it does sadly exist)? LOL, you don't get it do you as there's money to be made in oil, yet, the profits are simply not good enough, that they have been subsidized while your state takes in more fed money than it give in revenue and it has little to do with just oil subsidies, though that is part of it. The fact that ND has 700K residents doesn't matter that it still takes in more money than it gives, ther ratio od money needed for program is based on a person guide. News Jersey gives almost 2 to 1 in revenues. You'd think using your logic, that ND would be well in the blue. Here are the statistics from 2000 to2009, before the real boom hit. Fact is, if you're going to claim-some degree of wealth it has to be in proportion to the population ratio to tax revenues, then read this.
The bible bashers and anti-abortion wingnuts have never been concerned about the "poor little unborn babies". The real motivation behind all of this anti-abortion / anti-birth control / personhood legislation BS is about trying to control women's sexuality and to punish us if we embrace it and enjoy it.
If all of these raving republicans actually gave a crap about the "poor little unborn babies" they'd also give a crap about them after they're born. They don't. If they actually cared about these fricking fetuses, they'd want to promote and pass better health care legislation that would help children, they'd promote and pass legislation that would enable new parents to have more time for maternity leave. They'd be encouraging fathers to be involved with their new children by taking paternity leave.
They'd be promoting and passing legislation to help families, particularly working mother's be able to spend more time with their children. They'd be working to actually improve the educational system in this country. But they aren't promoting or passing any legislation that is actually family friendly. The real reasons the repukes are raving anti-abortion / anti-birth control, etc?
Their voting base of self-centered, arrogant white guys is dying off and if white women won't pump out 3,6,9, or 12 babies to boost the numbers they'll try and force us to against our will. Also, they need cannon fodder in order to fight all of those fricking wars they love so much.
They aren't about to send their precious little middle class and rich white boys - the Dubyas, Cheneys and Romneys to fight and die - but hey, a massive population of impoverished minorities and poor whites will sign on to fight. They'll just hope to survive those 3,5,7, 9 tours of duty they get sent on.
And lastly, you know what I hear so many anti-abortion guys say over and over again - "Well if she's going to go out and have sex, or gets pregnant, then she should have to suffer the consequences." And that's how they really view those "poor little unborn babies", All those fetuses are to them is a tool, a weapon to use in order to punish girls and women for being sexually active and enjoying their sexuality. And that show's you what the average raving republican / anti-abortion nut REALLY thinks of children. They don't consider them a blessing, some precious little gift from god. To them: pregnancy and childbirth = punishment.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if guys could get knocked up, there'd be more abortion clinics in this county than there are McDonalds. There'd be a fricking clinic on every street corner, and it'd be "Walk Ins Welcome - no appointment necessary". They'd probably have their own abortion version of a drive through.
They'd offer coupons. "If you get knocked up twice within the next 6 months, just bring this coupon to your nearest clinic and you can get two abortions for the price of one." They'd have a ticket the clinic would punch like those quaint little meal stubs they have at my nearest Philly Connection. They wouldn't be forced to put up with these BS 24 hr. waiting periods, lectures to try and shame them or intimidate them into not having an abortion.
They wouldn't have people deliberately lying to them saying "if you get an abortion, you could end up getting testicular cancer later in life or you might never be able to conceive again". They wouldn't be having to put up with these stupid ultra-sound rules. "Oh, no sir. Before you get this abortion, we're going to shove this probe up your butt whether you want us to or not, and then we're going to force you to look at the image of the fetus."
And this right here - is the ultimate proof - that you cannot choose your sexual orientation. Because when the bible bashers, anti-abortion nuts, etc. pull crap like this - it makes me hate guys so much - if I actually could choose my sexual orientation - I'd be the world's biggest raving lesbian and I'd want to move to an island where there were no guys. As one of my female friends said, "I love d--k, it's just that most of the time, I hate what it's attached to."
Incidentally women also have the same problem when it comes to getting our tubes tied. I know women from their 20s to their 60s who've told me, they knew, as far back as high school, that they never wanted to have children. But they couldn't find a doctor who'd do the surgery. The oldest women have told me that the entire way from their 20s-40s they had all of these arrogant male doctors lecturing them, telling them "oh, you'll change your mind" (they didn't) that "normal women" wanted children, etc.
And I've received the same treatment myself. I have no desire to have kids, but every doctor I saw when I was in my 20s refused to do it, telling me that patronizing "you'll change your mind" line. I haven't. I'm now in my mid-late 30s and I still can't find a doctor who is willing to do it. I had one male doctor flat out tell me that he wasn't going to do that surgery because "You haven't had any kids". And I was sitting there, "That's the point you obnoxious d--kweed. And I don't want any kids."
Contrast that with guys. I know guys who've had vasectomies done in their 20s, and they didn't get subjected to that crap. No sanctimonious male or female doctors lectured them, told them they'd change their minds, suggested that they weren't "normal" because they didn't want a couple of screaming babies. They were able to get their vasectomies no questions asked.
Concerned Bystander-3575299
That's a fair statement. Apology accepted and understood.
You're still in the realm of illegal and illegal. Abortion isn't illegal. Homicide is and has been. A closer suggestion to what you are talking about would be lynching prior to civil rights and jaywalking. Both are illegal but weren't always prosecuted. Abortion is legal.
I am very much in favor of state's rights. In this case, I absolutely support North Dakota's right to choose. I think that if a state wants to limit this they have that right and North Dakota is exercising it.
The issue I have is when people suggest a medical procedure is murder. Do you regard someone who has had an abortion to be the same as a felon who took someone's life in cold blood? That's very harsh rhetoric to use and an ugly label to place on someone.
The fact is that I am purely speaking out against suggesting abortion is murder. That has zero to do with my position in the pro-life/pro-choice debate.
Guess all that Republican talk about changing their message was just a lot of hooey. They cannot change as they are firmly in the hands of the biggest bunch of idiots that have ever walked the earth. The law on the books is roe v wade and that makes these useless vote symbolic so again instead of taking care of the peoples business thay want to inject Church dogma in as secular fact and that will not work. Of course we are dealing with brain dead folks here people who still believe the president is a Kenyan muslim etc . So when you go to bed tonight say a prayer for these fools cause they are all on a one way ship of fools that is going nowhere.
Dumbest statement ever posted and son or madam it was you who has Kool aid running out of every orifice in your body. Please do not post anymore we are not counting dumbazzes today
Tommy-dude, you don't live here. That's not a knock on you, it's just the fact. You don't see how easily people can get jobs here. Poverty is near nonexistent. If you want to work, it's impossible for you to NOT find a job. Furthermore, I did read your statistics. Did you?
Farm subsidies-this is for ALL agricultural states. My uncle actually happens to be a farmer (can't believe I just said that, seriously you guys we are entirely civilized lol) and its tough for independent farmers to make money nowadays.
Energy subsidies-we already covered it.
Retirement/anti poverty-this is a lumped category, and therefore is misleading. We do have a large amount of older people, if you check the history of ND you would see that for decades this state has had problems with young people leaving and older people staying. Again, I will repeat: lowest unemployment in the nation, and high average household income and personal income. What could be more accurate than those stats?
Indian reservations-what do you propose we do about this? Stop giving money to reservations? I don't know if you've ever been on one, but they are often poorly run because the money does not go directly to the people, but rather to the tribe council/leadership because they have different ways their government works (check reservation sovereignty on google if you aren't familiar). I know the Feds are aware of this, but most voters aren't, and therefore this never comes up as an issue, and as a result, things don't change and money keeps getting funneled in with little direction.
Its honestly amazing the money flowing in this state. There actually are a lot of people calling for the state to funnel even more money back to the people in the form of straight up checks written to each citizen, but I have conversation very week with people of all walks of life about how money saturated our state is. You have to be here to get it man, no joke.
Frankly, I don't get you liberals. First you say, that we can't afford to care for all those children on welfare, yet you constantly shove down our throats the supporting of illegal immigrants in our welfare system. Which is it? Can we afford more people, or not?
Oh wait, this isn't really about the welfare system is it? This is about women treating their bodies like trash and expecting others to clean up their mess afterwards, right?
Tell these women to find a new hobby.
@repojam- I totally get where your coming from, I just look at things a different way. No I don't consider those who have had an abortion to be the same as straight up murderers, but then again, we already have different degrees of murder, so it's not out of the question to have another (though I want to be clear that I absolutely do not think women who have an abortion should be prosecuted as murderers of any kind). But think of it this way: what if there wasn't an abortion clinic anywhere in the us because it was illegal. Few would have to be prosecuted in the first place because the opportunity isn't there. Now, for the sake of freedom and liberty we obviously can't actually enact this idea, but we can at least discuss the pros and cons.
And it is a medical procedure in my eyes as well, until that life becomes viable. Does it matter what the life is technically called? It is still a life, and none the less so because it isn't born yet. Be selfish about it for a minute: if you we're that fetus or baby or whatever you wanna call it and you had the choice of whether your mother kept or aborted you, what would you choose? When I put myself in that spot, I have no other moral and reasonable choice but to say that I don't believe in it. I'll readily admit that I'm a Lutheran Christian, but this decision is not religious, it's very logical for me.
I know that this will not change your thoughts or position, nor is it intended to. But maybe you and others reading this will understand pro life people a little better now. That's not to say watch out though, cause some pro lifers are flat out crazy lol, but some of us have reasonable, logical thoughts too haha
@repojam- I'd also like to say that I enjoy actually talking to other sane people you who have different opinions than me on comment boards, you're a rarity lol.
@giantego-roe v wade is not a law, it's a Supreme Court decision, they are different although both can be enforced by the executive (president) so they as treated the same. The vote is not "useless" as you say, because if it is passed, not only will it be state law, which is separate from federal prosecution, unless the Feds decide to intervene in the upholding of the law, at which point it would very likely end up in the Supreme Court yet again. There the current court would either uphold roe v wade or overturn it; if overturned, the decision would most likely allow states to choose for themselves (if overturned, and that's a big if). Definitely not a useless vote, and that kind of attitude is why people don't vote anymore but still complain about why they don't like the way things are in the country.
Hey North Dakota hows that Republican small government working for ya?
Concerned, I wonder if you even understand your own words. I gave an example in NJ, which has 5 times the retired population that ND does, yet it pays out more in taxes than it takes in with fed revenue. That's just one example. You go on to claim the highest household incomes along with the lowest unemployment rate in the nation, noting your words, "it's impossible for you to NOT find a job" and we "are the richest state". Considering the "high income" claim and "#1 lowest jobless rate at 3.5%" claim along with "being the richest state", it completely goes against the give/take ratio in fed dollars. If the state and the corporations are only doing well with employment because ND gets subsidized, then it's time we spend stimulus money elsewhere since the boom is doing so well, that exactly what ND gets, something universally abhorred among republicans and red staters. If ND can only do well being corporately subsidized, I hardly call that being rich.
ND ranks 20th in average median household income by states. ND ranks 25th in per capita income.
It's also not tough for farmers to make money as apparent by getting tax money to be subsidized, something that should and can be prevented by limiting agri-corporation subsidies. Read this article on why farmers can do without tax subsidies, it needs to end. Considering the RW philosophy on banning abortion, while taking away welfare for actual real life children, as they want reduce welfare, education, food programs and medicaid funding. But as soon as those reduction affects their red base, the tune changes.
The Supreme courts will slap this legislation down as soon as the governor signs it and he knows very well that it will never pass judicial review. Conservatives can write all the anti-abortion bills that they want but the Supremes have been very clear that Roe v. Wade is settled law. Its time to get over it and move on to something that matters. Not even the Right to Life support these extreme personhood bills because they know that they will not survive judicial review.
What happened to the GOP being small government conservatives and libertarians?
If you don't like abortion than don't have one, but please learn to keep your rosaries off of my ovaries. I wish that these religious extremists would read Genesis 2:7 and learn that their Bible says that you are alive when you take a breath and not when your cells undergo mitosis.
But...but...the GOP - they ARE for small government. They want their government just small enough to fit inside my uterus and the GLBT community's collective pants. Sheesh. The Ted Haggards of the world can't spend ALL their time hidden away in hotel rooms snorting drugs off the naked butts of male escorts. There's only so many public toilets they can do some wide stanced toe tapping in before they get caught. And finding a suitable rent boy to travel overseas with is getting harder and harder these days.
Acting like mysogynistic tools and making women miserable - in their eyes - that's one of the few acceptable ways left for them to have fun. And of course they do all of it under the guise of caring for poor little unborn babies - and knowing what's best for us - because grown women are apparently too stupid to make our own decisions about what's best for us, our bodies, and our lives. Of course their own wives, mistresses and daughters will be exempt from this. Since they're rich, they'll just send the women in their lives to a nice, discrete clinic to have that pesky little problem taken care of. Hypocrisy, that's the republican way.
I am not pro-abortion.
I also do not believe any governmental body, institution, or interested 3rd-parties should be allowed to take a woman's right to choose, within the specified parameters, away from her. That is a decision that ultimately rests with her, hopefully with input from the prospective father.
What is the ratio of young single mothers to young single fathers? 100 to 1? 1,000 to 1? 10,000 to 1? Getting closer.
If men could get pregnant there would be more abortion clinics than McDonalds.
And please don't bring God into the discussion unless you can prove such exists, beyond faith alone, as all it does is distract from the real issue and make you look ignorant.
Also please remember Republicans don't care about fetuses or zygotes, they only care about votes, especially those of the religious right starting in the late 70's. Congressman George Herbert Walker Bush was one of Planned Parenthoods staunchest proponents.
@tommy-ugh I'm getting sick of arguing with you. I do in fact know what I'm talking about "smart guy." We are above average in the stats I listed, I honestly did not know them exactly, thanks for looking them up. If your arguing that those aren't good stats, you should also list the differences between each number (i.e. what's the difference between number 25 and number 24, because if I remember right it isn't much).
When I say rich, I mean relative. Do you honestly think that someone would say that nd has more money than, for instance, Cali, NY, or Florida? California has 50 times as many people as ND does. Of course it has more money. But the amount of money we have compared to the amount of people we have is, I would imagine, very high. no, we don't have as much money in sheer volume as other states, but our people, local governments, and our communities will all tell you that we are a rich state indeed. It's really a beautiful time to live here, we don't have a lot of worries in our communities as a whole. We never lack for money of whatever is needed (again, generally speaking, not individually).
You're very confused on the farmer issue. If they need government subsidies to survive, obviously it's a tough profession. I know. if you missed it, my uncle and aunt live 50 miles outside of tiny wishek ND (google it if you want). Farm subsidies keep small mom and pop (so to speak) farms operating. Furthermore, why take away corporate subsidies? Yeah they hurt small farmers, but where the hell else is our food gonna come from? Your average person in today's world has no interest in farming, that's why it's turned to corporations (amongst, of course, a variety of other reasons).
I don't know where your getting this material from, but my state is not rich off oil subsidies dude. It's rich off taxing the s*** out of oil companies for operating in our state. Yeah, they may find loopholes on a federal level, and that's bs if you ask me. But we get great tax money out of them before they even worry about federal taxes. Furthermore, there's currently a push, discussed in our paper multiple times (bismarck tribune if your interested) for taxing these corporations even further than what we already do. Hardly what I'd call corporate loving conservatives.
You gotta just stop dude. I don't know where you live, but I bet this is the first time you've ever even worried about ND, which is valid cause that's like most people lol. You honestly aren't seeming to understand the truth here, but listen, this stuff is front page news on our paper every single day (well, this and the big abortion debate in the state right now, which I won't even start on cause that's a whole nother issue). We can all tell your googling stuff and spitting it back out here, but I'm talking from a POV of experience, I know because I live here every day. Try googling nd oil or something like that, look at all the stats for the BILLIONS (not a typo, billions is correct) that this state is making off oil companies every year. You can't argue against the truth man.
Please let's stop this argument now.
It looks like N Dakota found new way of using up their newly generated revenue from oil... The intent is to double Fk the women. I guess this is the intent of the Republican party and the Pro-Life to expand their population... forced procreation!!! hahahaha...
I am curious why the F, are there still women in N Dakota? I say leave the men there and let them figure it out.... hahahahahaha....
Wow, concerned, now you're playing semantics, while arguing against your own words that I am holding to you, that is typical of a republican! Rich being relative, that's really "rich! (sarcasm)", yet in your own words you claim the state does well because it is subsidize; that doesn't translate into wealth. ND is a state that operates on welfare being supported by states that don't get those subsidies. You even mentioned the Native Americans being poor get government help in ND, but claim a 3.5% unemployment rate. So, do they not work are are not allowed? Do they count among the population in your numbers?
Having the highest income cannot mean something as you stated into some 'relative" term that you don't explain, and to whatever the hell you're relating to. I only know your attempts to explain it away are getting more and more absurd. You cannot claim your state is the richest, which it isn't even close, then make claim to it being on a population ratio when you gave the state's population, when I showed the stats say different on family median income and per capita income, which are gauged on population and its total income. I bet you didn't even read the links I posted; two of them reflect 2011 figures. All the while attribute the wealth to the oil boom, while it is subsidized, as stated by your own words. That isn't wealth except for the corporations. I gave you legitimate sites to peruse, including an example why farm subsidies are bad and are not needed.
I am not arguing with you, rather now I am countering your contradictory assertions. If you want to stop arguing, then quit arguing against your own words.
To all the male posters here: STFU! You have no dog in the hunt, so it's real easy to be sanctimonious. If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament! If any of you anti-abortion men are married, why haven't your wives offered to have the unwanted fertilized ovum implanted in their uteri, if pre-viability ova are soooo precious? How many of you have signed up to adopt the babies you want total strangers to carry to term against their will...? You sanctimonious bastiches make me want to PUKE!
Oh, it doesn't make any difference what you think, because this law will be struck down. It contravenes Roe v. Wade, which is a FEDERAL law. Just one more shining example of the Rethuglican War On Women.
Where is the NBC News coverage of Dr Gosnell?
witness testimony - "she "couldn't give you a number" for how many times Gosnell used his "snipping" technique on infants born live during abortions"
So, it's "the women's" right to choose if a life lives or dies? Everybody argues as to when a fetus is a human life. They say 13 weeks etc....
When a woman is two weeks pregnant and gets killed by a drunk driver or a criminal, the defendant is charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter for the woman and child.
Explain why they are charged with two murders rather than one if they say a fetus is not a human yet at that stage...
Government Regulations are arbitrary....
No controls on killing guns; just on the uterus.
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Still, all this "christianity" in these posts....and yet, we are a Nation divided on what is GOOD for the OTHER person. Nothing like projecting YOUR prejudices, and lifestyle on someone you've never met.
Well, Veronica, if you truly believe that abortion represents a monstrous moral wrong, you may feel duty-bound to fight it. I don't hold to that opinion, but I understand that some people feel that way, and that they are not all club-wielding troglodytes, for whom the light of day is unknown.
Abortion will continue to be an issue on which many Americans cannot agree. How we deal with this division is one many troubling questions which will be with our nation for years to come.
Morning Creek Dog: I'm probably not responding to your question per se, but just want to point out that most women who get pregnant rarely think they are pregnant at 6 weeks. Mistake, rape, whatever, under this law they cannot get an abortion in North Dakota.
I am pro-choice, obviously. It is our choice to have an abortion or not. If women don't want an abortion, then don't have one. Just don't force your choice on me.
That being said... There are so many birth defects that aren't discovered until close to the end of the first trimester (12 weeks). Until society is ready to handle and treat a child that has little or no face as a normal child then we should allow abortion. It's great for the parents of the child to bring that child to full term all the while subjecting that child to a lifetime of cruelty. If they are good parents, the child will turn into an adult that ignores the stares and taunting. I know someone that carried their child to term that was severely deformed. That child went through hell. It was God's blessing that she died in a car crash at the age of 16. She wore the equivalent of a Burka. no one knew she was a white aglo saxon. She got the double whammy of hiding her deformity while being harrassed for being muslim.
Not all abortions are based on using it as a method of birth control. These laws don't take into consideration the reason for the abortion, it just takes away ALL abortions.
This society and their so-called moral values leaves much to be desired.
Creek Dog - I have to admit that such prosecutions seem legally, if not morally, doubtful. I would suggest that one doesn't hear of such prosecutions with regard to 1 or 2 week pregnancy. I've actually only heard of such charges being filed when the fetus was 6 months or more in its development.
So, just another difficult legal/moral question to ponder, and anybody expecting perfection of the law, or our legal system, hasn't been paying attention to last 200+ years of our nation's history.
As Gloria Steinem put it and as another poster paraphrased, "Listen honey, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." As I and others have pointed out on here, the anti-choice movement is NOT about saving a fetus. It's about controlling women at the most basic level, our reproduction, our right to control our own bodies.
To force a woman to gestate and birth a pregnancy she doesn't want is akin to slavery. Pregnancy and childbirth have a much higher mortality rate than abortion. It IS about punishing women for being sexual beings and having the freedom to enjoy our sexuality as well as women becoming more independent in general.
The really scary thing about the so-called personhood amendment, is that it could outlaw, if politicians were idiotic enough to pass it, most forms of contraception. I had a turbo Catholic woman tell me she thought abortion AND all forms of contraception should be outlawed. EXCUSE ME? What dot you want this nation to become? Romania, the Ceausecu years?
Obviously, those who've seen my posts before know that I am all for 2nd amendment rights, but what most gun-rights advocates are proposing is the height of hypocrisy. "Don't tread on my right to bear arms, but I'll step all over your right to have an abortion and control your own body. No one's telling me what to do.", as they cling to their arsenal.
I am not a big Obama fan by any stretch of the imagination. But one thing I remember him saying during his first campaign is, with regards to abortion rights is, "I don't want my daughters to be punished for making a mistake." Georgie boy had daughters and never echoed that sentiment. But his daughters and wife and mom are all pro-choice.
I really think that having a pro-choice president sends the anti-choicers completely over the edge. Dr. Tiller was slaughtered not long after Obama became president AND don't tell me Bill "The Pompus Jerk" O'Reilly doesn't have blood on his hands regarding the murder of that poor man. Remember when the wonderful Bill Clinton was president? Doctors who performed abortions were murdered, clinics were bombed. They go extra nutso with a pro-choice man in power. They know federally they have no standing, so they chip away at state's rights. We're dealing with that now here in Texas and Rick "The Hair" Perry.
Abortion is a legal right. If my IUD, which would be outlawed under a land stricken with the personhood amendment, failed, I would have an abortion. I had one in college and never wanted to go through it again. But I have read stories on women who've gotten pregnant despite the IUD being the best contraception on the market. My husband and I are pretty sure we don't want kids. Once we are firm in our CHOICE, hubs will get the snip snip.
The upshot is, this is my body, my life, my choice. It's no one else's business. It wasn't 15 years ago when I made the choice and it's not now. I never even gave antis a thought when making that choice. Despite the bulletproof glass that protected the staff. Months after my abortion, that clinic was attacked. I did think of all the women and men who came before me to ensure women had access to legalized abortion. Thank you Sarah Weddington. I'm not old enough to remember when it was illegal, but my mom told me it was bad. We will keep fighting, though after 40 years of legal abortion, we shouldn't have to. Le Sigh.
Why can't the GOP differentiate between fantasy and reality? Seriously guys, Mad Men is JUST a TV show. But from a strictly political standpoint, have at it. All of these crazy laws will be overturned in the courts, and your outdated party will go the way of the dinosaurs.
*Do you want this nation to become?* Sorry, I hate making errors like that. :-)
A final thought for now. My great Aunt Grace, a truly wonderful woman, already had one child when she became pregnant during a time in which she couldn't afford to be. She had a back alley abortion and was left infertile. She got pregnant once, after the abortion, but it was an ectopic pregnancy that nearly killed her. Do we really want those days to come again?
after reading some of these goofy comments,i am now pro-choice.we obviously have an overabundance of loony people.why bring more to the party?
Personhood defines and gives legal rights to a fertilized egg before pregnancy. If the pregnancy doesn't occur, who is responsible, God?
@ the arguing above between tommy and Concerned about ND tax revenue and federal tax dollars allocated. One thing that you are forgetting about is infrastructure. In states like NJ, where population density is high, infrastructure costs are spread out over a much wider taxpayer population. When you have a million people living in 100 square miles, infrastructure such as roads, electric, phone, water are more concentrated. On the opposite you have states like ND, MT, WY that have small populations spread out over large areas. There is still required infrastructure for commerce but it is spread out over a much small taxpayer population. ND is an agriculture state and most of what we produce is sent out of our borders. It ends up as your steak on the grill or the pasta on your plate or the gas in your engine or the electricity powering your computer. If infrastructure costs were to be levied solely on the people using them, cost of production would skyrocket and you would see people in major metropolitan areas paying many times more for everyday items. That is the nature of a diverse national economy that allows us to have oranges in ND in January and for NYC to have Mac n' Cheeze for 50 cents a box.
Veronica25, fighting against the Roe vs. Wade is a way for the South to continue the fight over losing the Civil War not to mention keeping women subjects and second class to the menfolk. Let's face it the South and illiterate states are still of the mindset that women in general are property and nothing more than incubators for their egos. These crazed Evangelicals are forever trying to throw our great society and forward movement of equal rights back to the 19th and early 20th Centuries.
Intellect, I am a Texan, born and raised. And yes, I do have some relatives NOT in my immediate family who are old school My Uncle Brent is very racist and a Southern Baptist. Need I say more? But not all of us fit the stereotype of the illiterate, backwards south. I grew up in Houston, went to college in Austin and have never been a small town girl.
But you are right when it come to a fair amount of small town folks. Though it's not just them. My good friend had two uncles that were actual rocket scientists for NASA. But get them out to the woods and all they wanted to do was shoot anything that moved and talk mess about other races and gays. So some stereotypes hold true but not all. And BTW, we are trying to get Rick Perry out of office. And I mean, fellow politicians. The man has been in office for 12 years and that's 12 years too long.
Gee Gary; only 4 posts before you brought the President into the conversation! What were you doing?
Waiting by the keyboard for the article to download? What a troll!
Olivia - you and I rarely agree but on this subject we do. People who don't believe in abortion should never have one. That really takes care of the problem.
Most who are pro-choice might have a hard time making the decision to have an abortion but it should be the decision of the mother - and the father if he is in the picture.
I find it interesting that the same sanctimonious anti-choice people don't really give a d*mn what happens to the child once it is born. It can starve; be mistreated; live on the streets - they don't care - just make sure it's born. Pretty much says it all about them and nothing it says is good.
And, good luck with getting Rick Perry out of office. He's actually a frightening person! How can any one person be that crazed????
Olivia.,#1.26,
Sometimes you should think before you type.
You do understand (I hope) that mother nature made you exactly that as your primary function.
Myownthoughts, sometimes you should think before you type. The vast majority of women think that they are far more than just incubators, no matter what "Mother Nature" may have done or what some men may think.
Your comment was sexist at best, misogynistic at worst.
Mis., #1.89,
Thank you for the labeling and what the 'vast majority of women think'. None of that matters. I made a statement of FACT. Fact are neither good or bad, they just are. Your response was an emotion rant as silly as wailing 'He said the sky is blue, I hate blue, its not blue, its not, its not...'
The FACT and post stand as correct.
Then your primary function, as a male, would be what? To ejaculate?
sperm donor, correct
primary function of a species is to procreate, biologic imperative.
humans beings are a bi-gender species, female carries the egg, the male fertilize the egg.
feel free to call me names, call it an imperative.
We, as humans, are more than our biological imperatives.
Mis.,
Never said one could not be more. I said 'primary function'.
Roe vs Wade was a mistake. Child murder should be illegal in all 50 states.
Point of law: Murder (infant or adult) is illegal in all 50 states. Abortion is legal in all 50 states.
Please don't mix apples and oranges into an unpalatable moralistic cocktail; especially in light of the gender that your moniker presumes.
oh well if you say so it must be true! NOT
John, so you would equate abortion to murder for hire, which in my state is a capital offense. So you would have any woman who gets an abortion executed? Or do you see the two situations as different, and if so, why?
John Carter...you are a JERK. Obviously, child murder IS illegal in 50 states. Fetuses are NOT children. You think you can own women's bodies just because you have that silly stuff between your legs that can impregnate women, even against their will. You do not own us and cannot tell us what to do with our bodies.
John, since you seem to think you have a say in what a woman does with her body, do women get to hold you accountable for all the potential lives lost every time you masturbate?
Gcooper, killing a pregnant woman DOES often result in charges of TWO deaths...a fetus IS a human life.
Wants to KNow, a fetus is NOT a woman's body. An individual's body is 100% their own DNA. A fetus does not have the same genetic makeup as the mother, therefore it is NOT part of the woman's body. We all know what a fetus ultimately becomes: a human.
And, lose the misandrony. Don't be so arrogant and self-righteous to think men are the cause of abortion. Tell us all: how many abortions are the result of rape or incest? You'll find the vast, VAST majority are elective based on lifestyle/selfish reasons.
Abortion is termination of what we all know is a developing human (otherwise, if it's just a mass of 'cells', why the reason to remove healthy tissues?).
The developing human in the womb is the most vulnerable of all -- yet it is given no human or civil right in the American law system. A travesty.
Don't want kids? Don't phuck. Why are there so many haters of the human reproductive system and the reality of what those organs are for (and ultimately do)?
Which one is worst, killing the mother or terminate an unwanted birth.
Clearly abortion IS murder for hire, planned parenthood should be closed down using RICO laws. Any doctor involved in performing an abortion should be 1) have his/her license revoked; 2) incarcerated; 3) quite possibly face the death penalty (of course if they get the death penalty they would not have to be incarcerated.
@Wants to know
The nais said Jews weren't human and used that as a pretext for killing therm,
In the south it was claimed the blacks were not humans and this was the pretext for keeping them as slaves,
saying fetus's are not human has using the same logic as the nazis and slave owners, now we can clearly see the democrats' true colors.
If your argument hinges on The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004, (a well-intentioned bill, but a flawed one by virtue of its overreach) you are overstating your case. The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction. Federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states.
Even amongst the states that recognize the human fetus as the legal victim of homicide, there is disagreement over the time that such recognition is granted.
Your argument, and the misguided antics of the North Dakota legislature, seek to convey personhood on a zygote -- a very slippery slope indeed and one not resolved in the affirmative by any court.
Whenever you're ready to give part of your welfare check then I'll go along w your stupidity!! You're the load that your cheap skank mother should've swallowed!
Mitzy and others, I'm not asking about penalties for the abortion provider. In my state, if you hire someone to kill your toddler, you face the death penalty. Since you say an abortion is the equivalent of that murder for hire, please tell me if you think a woman who gets an abortion should also face the death penalty. If not, why the difference?
@ Concerned Bystander-3575299 is right. The unemployment rate is so low in ND because most people cannot deal with the cold. If it is so cold, just put more layers on. It is not hard. It keeps you warm and you will not get arrested. Here in Texas, if it gets too hot and you take all your clothes off to keep cool, you get arrested for being naked.
Score another one for rapist rights to become fathers. Visitation just around the corner. Dont you just love the small government Republicans?
Mitzy, if a fetus is such a precious thing LONG before it's viable outside of the mother's body, why haven't YOU agreed to have an unwanted fetus transplanted from the body of a woman who doesn't want it into YOUR uterus...??????? Put your uterus where your mouth is! 'Cause what you're doing now is just requiring OTHER women to live their lives according to your moral code - without putting yourself on the line one iota. Big talk - no action.
When a woman is two weeks pregnant and gets killed by a drunk driver or a criminal, the defendant is charged with murder or involuntary manslaughter for the woman and child.
Explain why they are charged with two murders rather than one if they say a fetus is not a human yet at that stage...
I watched my first son (Christopher) born at 3lbs 9oz and was in the hospital for weeks before coming home.
I watched my twin boys born on X-mas day too early. Eric died the 27th and Chad died the 28th. Both in my arms.
I watched my daughter (Kelsey) born who had heart surgery at 5 wks old.
I could NEVER understand why people would want to abort a child as precious as they are. Regardless if they cannot afford one. Give it up for adoption. There are thousands of people out there who cannot conceive and would love to adopt your "unwanted" child.....
I've never heard of such case, can you please post a link to any situations you are aware of in which this occurred? Thank you. Very often, women aren't even aware they are pregnant at 2 weeks' gestation -- in some cases they haven't even missed a period yet.
Creek Dog: I totally understand your point of view when it comes to your children. But that is just it, they are your children. And I feel for what you have gone through. But don't limit the choice for others because of what your wife and you went through.
As far as those who want to adopt, there are tens of thousands of children available for adoption. People want newbies, ones they can raise from infancy. And sadly, there are not too many that will adopt from a different race than their own. Quite a few people are willing to spend thousands of dollars going to Russia to adopt. The amount of children born with handicaps that are waiting for adoptions has skyrocketed. Until I see a run on adoption agencies for minority and handicapped children, THEN and only THEN would I re-evaluate. But I don't see that happening. It should, but it won't.
IAM, the laws in the US regarding adoption strongly favor the birth mother. The laws vary by state, but essentially, prospective parents have to jump through hoops to get a baby, and the birth mother can change her mind for a period of time and petition to get her child back---often successfully. This is especially true if the birth mother signed something prior to giving birth because in all 50 states any such document is not legally binding.
In some states the birth father acn oppose the adoption and the grandparents have some rights. We, as a nation, don't make it easy for our citizens to adopt babies from the US.
Thanks Bulldozer, but it doesn't lessen my point. Most right to lifer's say "there is always adoption". There isn't always adoption. We know that for a fact. We have so many unwanted children that need a home it is pathetic. The foster care system is overrun. Caseworkers making mistakes because of being overworked.
Added: Good point. Then we as a nation should look at working on those laws that interfere with adoption rather than fixate on a woman's right to choose.
Rates of juvenile delinquency decreased after Roe v. Wade. But some folks would force women to bring unwanted children into the world. NOT that they would then pay for said children's care!
Creekdog - your case of a 2-week pregnancy leading to a homicide charge is imaginary. Two MONTHS maybe, but not 2 weeks, that's a big difference. I challenge you to produce the evidence of your assertion. And if YOUR daughter or wife were impregnated by a rapist, would you force either one to bear the rapist's offspring to birth? Even against their wishes? I bet you'd think twice if you got knocked up by some violent pervert. Don't impose your personal beliefs onto others. That's what jihadists do in Africa and the Middle East. Aren't you better than them? Aren't you all about minimal gov't intrusion and personal liberties? Yeah, I thought so.
Iam.,
Wonderful logic, to save you from being an orphan...we are going to kill you.
Maybe, just maybe, a poll of orphans should be taken. Would you rather be dead?
It is just so silly, it's sad.
myownthoughts56, what you have stated is what makes the difference between a human being and a zygote or fetus. A human is capable of sentient thought whereas a zygote or fetus is incapable of sentient thought. Therefore you have just defined human life and a fetus. This is why Pro-choice have you Pro-life people out thought on this issue both legally and clinically. I love it when emotion is trumped by sentient thinking things.
int. #2.24,
Don't be so proud of your 'out thought' quite yet. YOU could not follow that I was responding to 'Iam' previous post (#2.20).
Justifying abortion as kinder than an orphanage. I believe most orphans would disagree. But I'm sure a super brain such as you, can tell orphans they have too much 'emotion' about their life.
You might have the ability to 'out thought' some people. But, wow, do you need a reading comprehension class..desperately. Also, projecting words or possible thoughts not posted in a vain attempt to 'sound superior' does the exact opposite. It is a mark of immaturity, illogic, and juvenile ego. Good luck, you need it.
Next step: North Dakota Republicans begin drafting the "One Zygote, One Vote" bill.
They just haven't figured out how to make the voting machine accessible on a cellular level yet, nor how to introduce it before the zygote has formed sufficient grey matter, thereby ensuring it will vote Republican.
one zygote, one vote?
hahahahaha, better if one zygote splits into infinite neutrons in nuclear fissions.
I thought Republicans only believe in 'One dollar, One vote'.
Like libs wanting to give everyone a free pass into this country cause they will vote Democrat?
Better then the lib belief in "one dollar, five to welfare"
Did you hear about the idiot who moved from Montana to North Dakota thereby raising the mean I.Q. in both states?
Just as true now as it was 50+ years ago.
Malinda, shocking you compare the "idiocy" of northern border states (and their education systems and values) to be a horrid to the realities of most states south of the 40th parallel (e.g. the South).
Pro-Life Democrat here! and if you aren't pro-life then you are pro-death.
This is why the republicans lost the election, the democrats were paying $5.00 a vote (and to an illegal alien $5.00 is good money).
@malinda-at least i can say that you don't live here. Our average iq would be dreadful if you did. Have fun at your desk job and with your worthless life.
You're using them big SAT words, Republicans can't understand that kind of educated stuff!!! Next they'll vote against education, reading and writing not required!!!
All these moron Conservidiots want to force poor women to have babies they don't want. But once they're born... Screw 'em!
You guys really must be too stupid to realize that every baby you force poor women to have today is a future vote for the Democrats. Mommy is going to raise him or her to hate Rethuglicans from Day One. Way to assure that your threadbare party becomes more and more irrelevant every...single...day!
So why not have a neutering program ?
Mitzy - the ignorance of your post is just one more reason Republicans are a dying party. The total lies and ignorance shown by Republicans - like you - is turning people off who have intelligence and want the party that represents them to have intelligent ideas, ideals and leadership. It is just gone from the GOP - too bad but it's so apparent it's frightening. Only the truly low information voters are staying with the GOP!
@ concernedmn: Pro-choice Independent here! And if you aren't pro-choice then you're Pro-SLAVERY!
So, Republicans are supposed to support child murder because it cuts down on the number of future Democrat voters, eh jockmama? Typical Democrat morals being projected onto people who actually have a conscience.
JohnCarter-428979, we are all moral agents but you are not mine and I am not yours. With this statement and truism in mind then the conclusion would be that Republicans and religious folks just not participate in having abortions through free will and let their moral conscious guide them along with those who choose to have abortions. See how simple the solution is?
Republicans and Christians are trying their best to take away free will from others by being their moral agents thus violating your own mantra of Christianity practicing, granting and guaranteeing free will. It would seem this is hypocrisy and judgemental from the Christian believers.
Those who would murder children want us to just turn our eyes away and let them continue the slaughter. You say it is an exercise of free will and should be allowed. Ok, so lets do the same with murders of adult women. Shouldn't we be allowed to kill them as well? It is after all hypocrisy and judgmental to permit the slaughter of innocents and not allow the slaughter of the rutting whores who knew exactly what they were doing when they spread their legs.
Oh, and on a personal note, I am not a slave to Bronze Age Superstition. My moral center does not depend on some supernatural fantasy. Right and wrong are objective concepts derived from our common humanity.
Next big shoe to drop. North Dakota woman goes out-of-state to have abortion. North Dakota Doctor claims to have heard heartbeat. North Dakota charges the woman with being an accessory to murder of the unborn child, based on heartbeat. Or maybe just child endangerment. I see a SCOTUS case in the next 5 years based on some of these stronger anti-abortion laws in some states.
If your a women who votes (until that right is taken away) Republican you must check the box Breeding Stock instead of female.
It's all just Conservidiot grandstanding. It will be struck down by the courts as an attempt to contravene Roe v. Wade, which is FEDERAL law.
The laws (and referendum, if it is passed) will be overturned, but only after the state has spent tens of millions of dollars in legal fees. It amazes me that Republicans can claim to be paragons of fiscal discipline when they pass laws that they know will cost millions AND will ultimately be overturned.
All legislators who vote for legislation that is ultimately found to be unconstitutional should be forced to cover the full costs incurred by the state AND those incurred by the plaintiffs.
Barry-NJ, just like Arkansas. The governor told his Rethuglican party not to pass their new zygote law as it would cost too much in defending a law that would be thrown out as unconstitutional not to mention the cost to a cash strapped state. Once again a Bible Belt thumping state passes a stupid law based on ignorance and prejudice of Pro-choice or actually the need to control the bodies of their womenfolk. Keep them barefoot and pregnant in Arkansas so they won't get uppity.
Excellent points, Intellect. Apparently these particular Republicans haven't been paying attention to the debate within the party about how to appeal to more of the electorate. This kind of legislation, which is so extreme that it forbids abortion to save the life of the mother, isn't going to help matters. It is clear that the GOP sees women as nothing more than incubators. I'm baffled that women continue to vote for it.
If people continue to think that the Supreme Court will uphold Roe V. Wade, they are in for a sad future. We need to stop electing these fools on the state level and make sure that we send reps to DC that uphold the right of Women to not be breeding chattel.
At the moment, as I read it, the Court is about 4-4 on abortion, with Kennedy tossing about in the middle. Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts are pretty much anti-choice, ready to overturn Roe v Wade. Ginsburg, Kagan, Sotomayor and Breyer would likely uphold Roe. If one of the anti-choice justices should depart while President Obama is in office, and the likely GOP filibuster of the replacement nominee can be beaten, choice will be safe for awhile. But if Ginsburg stays until a GOP president would replace her, that could be trouble.
You mean there are 4 anti-life justices on the SCOTUS.
Let's be realistic guys. Roe Vs. Wade was based upon a lie by a woman claiming she was raped. It was found out later that that she had lied because later on that very same woman became a born-again christian. See how many lives were ruined because of one lie?
Women everywhere now think its okay to use their body like chattel and then blame others, why they can't get an abortion afterwards. Do we really want to go there? Stop believing this is about women's rights. This isn't for equal pay.... This is about women trying to act like whores and not having to deal with the consequences afterward. Very few pregnancies are the result of incest or rape.
Unhappy, its easy to see why you are......but you just can't make facts up. Folks on the computer thingee know how to fact check.
Truth be known this is about little men, controlling women through religious dogma. Pray harder maybe it will grow..........
What part of murder do you not understand ?
WILDWONDERFUL - most of us understand murder - which abortion isn't. Murder is letting idiots run around with guns and shoot up as many people as they can because the right wingers love their guns more than they love children. See how easy that is to explain?
It's a sad state of affairs when zygotes and AR-15's are more highly valued than actual living human beings and schoolchildren. This is one ph*cked-up society.
Republicans says to hell with the supreme court we will do as we please. Women are second rate citizens and should have no rights or say over their bodies is the thinkings of the right wing . They think that as soon as the male egg meetsthe womans egg it is a human being don't they. How ignorant they are !
In all states I go out kill a human life, hell even a dog in some states I go to prison. So you're saying it should be OK for a woman to go out and kill kids? So why the big up roar over Casey what's her crap killing her kid?I'm not republican, but I know there is something seriously wrong with taking a life. Be it unborn or out walking around. If a woman didn't want a kid she and her f buddy should take precautions instead of the oops factor! Also how is it that someone that kills a pregnant woman can be charged with double homicide?
"Male egg?" Bwaah haaaa haaa
WHere in the US Constitution does it explicitly say or grant the power of any human to extinguish the life of another?
Roe v. Wade only granted the power of government to stay out of doctor-patient decisions. Make any prodecure illegal, it stays out of the doctor-patient equation. Abortion is the only "medical procedure" in which healthy parts of a body - doing what they are supposed to do - are destroyed.
A fetus is NOT a child. Period. And, a person killing a pregnant woman can only be charged with a double homicide if the pregnancy is far enough along - usually over 4 months - that the child could possibly be viable on it's own.
Hey @!$%#s why not say that the fetus is a person when the man and woman decide to have sex; why wait??
That's a really stupid comment. Why not just say, that when a man and woman decide to have sex, they should decide ahead of time to keep the baby or give it up for adoption, no questions asked.
Unhappy ... what about cases of rape? I don't think that rapists consult with their victims about possible children. And, yet, the proposed legislation makes no provision for pregnancies from rape or to save the life of the mother. Why is a fetus more important than a living woman?
Cool. I bet the lawyers are loving this. Just think, the unborn fetus can now hire an attorney to advocate for it. Question is, who is going to pay that bill?
This is nuts. Absolutely stone age nuts. I expected way more out of North Dakota than this.
The Republicans will of course. Afterall, democrats don't like to pay for their own abortions or anything else.
Hello that is a child you are referring to.
Unhappy - a totally ignorant post. Just as many Republicans get abortions as Democrats. And, if a Republican's child had an unwanted pregnancy you're kidding yourself if you think that mother and father wouldn't take their child to terminate the pregnancy.
Oh, and I'm a registered Independent - definitely more liberal than conservative - and I as well as all my liberal friends pay my own bills. I also help others out when I can. Try again!
seeking., #8.3,
OK, I am calling BS on that post.
While women are being rushed in and out of abortion clinics and staff are doing all things medical.
Some yahoo is asking 'hi dearie, what political party do you belong to?'
Feels and sounds like the Left is losing it's grip.
This is what happens when repubs run rampant.
I'm sure happy I USE to live there. Talk about a backwoods State now being run by Big Oil. Why not prosecute a woman for having a monthly menstrual cycle and killing the egg?
willie53
Your proposition raises an interesting quandary for the GOP in North Dakota: What will be the penalty for a man using a condom?
And would it be more severe if a man is -- how to put this delicately -- "dating Mrs. Palmer and her five daughters"?
At 40 million sperm per normal per episode, I envision lengthy sentences being "handed" down.
willie please take your meds
Strange how there is so much ado over a fetus, yet when once born most people could care less. Oh, yes, we must make you have the baby, even if you can't take care of it. And then we're going to cut the hell out of all the social programs. Yep, makes a lot of sense!
On the other other hand, I guess that the good people of North Dakota that are supporing this measure will also not let anyone go overseas to fight (as in kill) anyone, and there will be no more capitol punishment, since this would violate the "right to life" policy. Oh, unless you first decide who has the "right to life".
The irony of it all is not lost on some of us, at least the ones not living in N. Dakota.
The usual farm animal leftwing BS arguments.
Most abortions aren't done for reasons of poverty, according to the pro-abortion Guttenmacher institute which has done studies on this issue.
And there's a long line of people lined up to adopt.
So the DemoRat garbage about it being either abortion or the Failed Welfare state...holds no water.
a long line of people waiting to adopt? are you out of your freakin mind? do you have ANY idea how difficult the USA makes it to adopt a child? any idea AT ALL? why do you think people adopt from other countries? AND, if the children are born to drug using mothers, they end up in foster care because NOBODY wants them. you are delusional, Chesty.
I have a great idea. keep abortion legal, yet if you want one you have to perform your own. We will see abortion come to an end overnight. Then maybe people will think twice before putting themselves in situations to get pregnant. Yes be your own abortion provider! Face the reality of your actions.
How about a neutering program ?
I have a wonderful daughter - 26 years old, she rocks. But if she was raped and then got forced to stay pregnant ... I'd do the abortion myself with a wire coat-hanger (then take her to the hospital) ** and then go murder the rapist, and place his bloody head on a pike in front of the 'Republican Office' who allowed this all to happen.
Simple: Abortion IS murder!! ALL people who think it is a "choice" are wrong. Truth is not gray.. It is Black or White, Right or Wrong.. Abortion is WRONG!
You can continue believing the sky is not blue.. You can say there is no God... It does not matter what you THINK... Reality is REALITY!!!
Just try jumping out of an airplane with no parachute because you say there is no gravity... You cannot see gravity, but I believe it is there... It is a choice to jump with or without a parachute... It is a wrong choice to jump without one... The same with abortion... BAD choice... What you sow you will also reap....
Get over yourself, Meare. Rarely is ANYTHING on earth black and white. And as far as your God is concerned, where in the hell is your reality based PROOF of this beings existence?
I think your example is spot on! As for you Saliva, the fact you are commenting on here should be proof enough.
meare1:
It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks but just you and your religion?
Simple: this is a free country and people should have the right to choose, especially when it comes to their own bodies. You trying to dictate to everyone how to live their lives based on your religious beliefs is WRONG!
Religious freedom in this country means you are free to worship whatever invisible being in the sky you wish, but it also means people should be free from religious tyranny and free to not have to follow ANY religion.
There is no proof that your god exists.
What I "think" matters just as much as what you "think".
That is the reality.
It's really really funny and ironic how a religious zealot is trying to use science (and failing quit miserably I will add) to prove the existence of their god.
Priceless!!!
So, no provisions for the health of the mother? We're just going to let them die in excruciating pain just like that poor Indian woman in Ireland. I say the hell with you.
meare1
What you sow you will also reap....
So let them sow what they reap. It is none of your business is it? If your god is real, then it is a issue between that person and god, none of your business whatsoever.
It's so easy to give rights away, and so difficult to get them. Don't give them away.
Above all is the right to choose. Another point of view on that same matter, if abortions were illegal then the so called 'righteous' would not be able to prove themselves in that matter would they not?
Joe, That woman was in Ireland, we are in the US. Just goes to show you that liberals always go to the extremes to make their point. Frankly, I don't get you liberals. First you say, that we can't afford to care for all those children on welfare, yet you constantly shove down our throats the supporting of illegal immigrants in our welfare system. Which is it? Can we afford more people, or not?
Again with the throat thing. Just come out would you.
And what, an American women wouldn't suffer like an Irish women? Are you delusional?
Unhappy - you keep talking about supporting illegal immigrants through our welfare system. Surely you know the amount they receive is extremely small. Please cite your source for your continued rant!
Yep, the Left is running in circles with their hair on fire.
Chicken Little told them the sky is falling!@!!
Greg and meare1 - I'm not running at all and my hair is just fine, thank you!
I swear - the RIGHT - are right on track with demons and being evil and/or possesed.
They FEED on stupidity and hatred, and only breed within themselves.
Well then every miscarriage must be treated like a possible homicide. Police will have to investigate to make sure that a woman was taking perfect care of herself up until a miscarriage. What was the motive? Maybe the life insurance policy taken out on the fetus. Must be able to buy a policy if that fetus is a person. The government will have to issue social security numbers at conception then, right? Parents will get a tax credit for a dependant while they are pregnant, and not have to wait until the baby is born -oh yea. And pay child support early- yea.
Ain't it cool when your mind runs wild because you are unable to process information properly? The bill hasn't been signed by the Governor and then it has to be given a vote by the citizenry.
rob, the sad thing is that is where these "personhood" initiatives are leading.
Greg - You appear to have the problem processing information. The vote and the bill are two separate issues. The bill is to limit abortions and must be signed by the governor or vetoed. The VOTE is to BAN abortions completely and will not occur until the 2014 general elections. Try comprehending the information as you are processing it.
Seriously, I think there should be a mandatory, by law, paternity test performed on every single fetus to determine who the father is. Then the father should, by law, be expected to provide for this child full medical support prior to birth, a decent middle class lifestyle and a college education. Cannot make them love the kid, but sure can legally insist that they assume full financial responsibility for them. No more of this woe is me I cannot make my child support payment. Or woe is her, that is not my kid. If you cannot or will not, then it is a jail sentence, without trial, until the child is of legal age. If the father is too poor, the responsibility then lands on HIS family to financially provide. As it stands, pregnancy still lands on the woman as does raising this kid, while the father denies any part. If states like ND are going to take away the right to choose, then men better get ready to assume full financial responsibility for the kids they help make.
Our bodies belong to us, socially, legally, medically and morally. How dare anyone decide for me what I do with it. How did my personal self become your public business?
Kneejerk?
Your body belongs to you? So who's body does a developing human belong to? A fetus is genetically unique from the mother who is "nurturing" it. Abortion is an abuse of a reproductive system. There is no voice or ethics or morality extended to the very innocent life - when it is most vulnerable and without a legal voice - in the womb. A human rights travesty.
If life begins at conception, and a woman has a miscarriage, doesn't that mean Jesus is a murderer?
God created life and can take it away.. It is HIS choice.. If you believe all that is here is all that is ever going to be... His word tells us that there is a life after this one... everlasting life... He could have created robots, but instead, gave us free will. When the created says to the created you are wrong in what you do... THAT is where EVIL starts... Simple Truth in a complex world...
What?????
Well, as long as God gave me the right to exercise free will, it is my free will to have an abortion.
It is so great to have a subject of this nature bc it gives you such a great opportunity to get that danged bible out and thump it a little bit. LOL. I just cannot get serious about this POV. Time to get some cereal.
meare1:
Then we all must be gods because we all have the choice to take someones life.
Well according to your logic you are one EVIL person telling others they are wrong.
Sialia, "free will" does not justify murder. It is not your right to kill another human (no matter how little or low you think of the other person).
A miscarriage and an abortion are two different things. One is the body's way of not bringing a child to term because of something being wrong, the other is a woman denying the living child inside her and having it forceably removed so that the abortion "doctor" can live a lavish lifestyle and reap the huge profits from dead babies.
"God... gave us free will". Yeah, except Republicans seem to be trying to take that away from women. I guess free will applies only to men, right?
If miscarriages are a body's natural way of disposing of an unfit fetus, I think if the fetus that didn't get purged by miscarriage has major medical issues (seen plenty of videos on youtube of cyclops babies, etc etc that made me wonder why?), I see it as grounds for an abortion.
Abortions will always happen, even if it became illegal. People will just find ways of doing it. People need to accept that and focus on their own lives. I could care less what other people do.
Yes Virginia this is all about returning women to their rightful place, as a mans property.
Yah! Whip those murdering liberal scum into line! All 4 of them in North Dakota.
And someone'll challenge it, and it'll go to the Supremes, where we can overturn Roe v. Wade, the weakest-reasoned decision in US history.
C'mon Justice Roberts, you owe us big time! You covered yourself as independent-minded by supporting Obamacare's unconstitutional aspects, so Dems can't plausibly call you lock-step rightwing. I want this ND case to kill baby-killing once and for all. Smash liberal scum!
God be praised!! At least one state is going along the right path!
All the pro lifers, hope is never lost!
LOL You people want the right to have a abortion but you liberals want gun owners to give up our guns because a few kids got killed by a mad man. But its ok for women to line up st slaughter there babys right?
This is how an American Theocracy would look, and just how the right wingers would like it to be. Women in their place, minorities in their place, non-christians in their place, and all those places are anywhere except THEIR place. Their place is a white, christian, male dominated theocracy where women are told what to do with their bodies, you are told who you can and cannot marry, live with, pray to and everyone has a gun or ten.
North Dakota, the South Carolina of the west. Just another reason (in addition to it being -30 degrees in winter) I wouldn't step foot in the place. And these people worried that having "North" in their name would keep people away...!
Sho: exactly
Shogun- You are just repeating Lefty talking BS. Take a look around you and notice what the secular progressives have done over the last fifty years.
Yes, the have kept religious nutjobs from cramming their religion down everyone's throats.
How is preventing murder of voiceless humans about "nutjobs" or "cramming religion down everyone's throats?" Get a grip.
Cramming something down a throat is must different that scraping/sucking a living, developing baby from the womb.
Because only YOU and YOUR religion believe this. The rest of us DO NOT. You are trying to force your "version" of morality on the rest of a society that does NOT agree with you, nor does it believe what you believe and we have EVERY Right to our OWN beliefs and our OWN morality. Get over it and quit trying to control the rest of us. Don't like Abortion... DON' T HAVE ONE !!
If the government can tell a pregnant woman what she is allowed to do with her body, then where does this type of meddling stop? If you cause a car accident out of negligence or inattention and fatally injure someone else, then shouldn't doctors be able to legally take your organs to save the person that might otherwise die (such as one of your kidneys)?
This is America. A divided Country. United we stand and Divided we Fall
Sounds good. So when can we fall, and split up?
I'm Ok with that,as long as someone takes Texas, South Carolina, and North Dakota. Maybe Georgia. And Mississippi. Oh hell, lets just give the south and their northern wannabes another chance at secession and let them go this time. But they gotta take West Virginia. Thats not negotiable!
2014 if we fail to take the Senate from Harry Reid
Naw, given enough time the religious nutjobs will be outnumbered and will lose any power they think they have.
No need to split up. Just probably will have to wait another 100 years or so...
Nice to see the party of stupid doubling down.
Chesty.,#22.1,
Do it by county 'red/blue' on the 2014 vote.
Though I suspect the 'blue' areas wouldn't like it after their food runs out.
See 'redneck' is an old term for a farmer, they can feed themselves, can you?
Of course one would not want to pay taxes and provide for the unwanted child - oh no, entirely different subject when it comes to helping the less fortunate (i.e. born because one did not have a choice). Of course these are Republican males -no tax increases but let me screw you (more ways than one) and you can deal with the consequences. A bunch of hypocrites who want to keep women barefoot and pregnant.
Abortion is the out and out brutal destruction of innocent human life. Human beings carry their young inside their own bodies as this is supposed to be the safest place for them. Fetuses / Human infants feel pain and suffer during abortions, some are born alive and killed outside the womb, limbs torn off, skulls crushed, poisons placed in their hearts, tools used to pierce the back of their heads and stir up their brains. All this done because someone wasn't responsible to avoid pregnancy. Abortion is murder, even abortion doctors know it is, but because it is 'legal' then its okay. No human being should be less valued just because of their stage of life. Lets avoid pregnancy, use contraception, and do everything we can to avoid this disgusting brutal heinous act of killing and destruction. Thank your lucky stars it didn't happen to you, because with the shear number of abortions it could have happened to any one of us.
If it had happened to me I wouldn't have known so I wouldn't care.
I do agree with you about stopping unwanted pregnancies, but a great percentage of those against abortion are also against most programs that teach and provide the means of birth control. They want abstention and waiting for marriage, and that has never been effective except on fantasy TV shows like "Leave it to Beaver" and "Father Knows Best".
Contraception should be improved and increased. I agree it is backwards and insane to be against its use. Contraception isn't fool proof though. So responsibility shouldn't be solely abdicated to it. Contraception is a man's responsibility as well, vasectomies should be encouraged. Adoption should be made available and affordable. Male rapists should be given vasectomies not to mention long prison sentences and punishments. Women do have a right to their bodies and to reproduction, but once they've created a new person, there is a unique separate individual, who also has an equal right to live his or her life and has a right to their own body as well. Support for new mothers needs to be increased so that if its on account of economic reasons a woman can find the help and support she needs, and there is help out there. Or consider giving up the child for adoption, this should be wonderful for many childless couples. So adoption shouldn't be such a struggle and expense to obtain. No child should be created just to be destroyed, abortion is violent, intrusive, treated far too casually, and I certainly wouldn't want to be reminded everyday that a human life came to an end inside my body because I was irresponsible or unprepared. Sex is just for fun right?
For some people, yes.
Especially with someone else in the room.....!
Good if it's just for fun, then lets keep dead babies out of it by not making any.
ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Blah blah blah, yada yada yada. You numbnuts need to get it through your thick skulls that we don't give a rat's _____— what you think because we don't BELIEVE what you believe. So waste your time yakking away because you're pissing in the wind. Your "beliefs" are based on a myth and the rest of us don't subscribe to your myth. Therefore your myth and its VERSION of 'morals' and whathaveyou only apply to YOU. Got that ?? They don't apply to the rest of us. We have our own beliefs, morals, values and if they don't agree with yours, well that's just too goddamned bad.